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So, I have tried 4 times to "get into" 40k (4th, twice in 6th and now 7th), and I am always inevitably pulled back to Warmachine. I dabble a bit with other gaming systems, but those are the two that are most popular around here. I've said for some time that I wish my favorite miniatures line was supported by my favorite ruleset (or that my favorite ruleset had my favorite minis to go with it), and I still have not been able to find the right balance of the two. My latest foray into 40k yielded some wonderful observations:
1) I don't like vehicle-heavy games and playing without vehicles is quite an uphill battle
2) There really isn't a lot of flexibility when it comes to mixing and matching models (this one has a storm bolter! YAY "variety")
3) I still have no idea what the rules are and I don't believe that anyone really does.

I would really like to go back to WM/H (favorite ruleset 5 years strong), but I don't want to get rid of my amazing converted and painted evil elves and replace them with (mostly) not good models. The rules for conversions at PP tournaments are that the majority of the model must be the model for which the rules were written, and that other companies' products are not allowed. Okay, that's fine. No tournaments for me, no big deal... OH WAIT! That is what most people around here play. I really don't see the point in converting, since I usually convert to either save money and to dual-purpose (I use elmer's glue on my bases so I could theoretically swap out my 40k elves for WHFB). Does this mean that if I want to play, oh let's say, Retribution, then I'm stuck buying all those ridiculously ugly models?

I know there is a lovely inspirational thought that floats around on here about playing the rules you like with the models you like. I am all for this approach. I was also super inspired by this post on 1d4chan: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Your_dudes about playing how you want. I want to know how those of you who ascribe to this philosophy implement it when it comes to gaming. My ideal ruleset is Warmachine, but they just do not have my favorite models. Plus, if I spent the time building and painting an army up, I would hate to bring it all to play only to be told that it was illegal.

This whole issue has put me in a bit of hobby limbo, and I'd like a bit of help if you don't mind.

It sounds really unlikely that people in your area can "mostly" play tournaments rather than casual games. There just aren't enough tournaments for people to do that. In my experience, a lot of people will play whatever kind of game the upcoming tournaments are to get some practice, but that's all. If you don't want to play in the tournaments, there are probably lots of people who'd be happy to play against your dark elves or whatever in casual games, especially if they're on the correct bases for the models they're representing.

So, that sounds like the best solution to me: play the army you want casually, avoid tournaments.

That or decide you like the models. Barring specific older models, I can't personally see how you'd find most of Warmachine's range to be so ugly you can't bear to play it, even if maybe it's not quite as nice as some of the Warhammer ones. I don't know - maybe that's easy for me to say, since the lovely Lord of the Rings models spoiled the Warhammer Fantasy aesthetic for me.

Hmmm... that's nice to hear. I was thinking more about Iron Arena this year at GenCon, but I suppose just going to the LGS and picking up a game is worth a shot.

As for "just deciding to like the models": that is something I've considered, but man oh man I've been spoiled with that HIPS and resin. Perhaps sticking to the metal models would be good, since it would be worth it for my sanity.

I am working on a converted gatormen army, there are a few pics here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/623768.page

However, I'll be labeling the bases with what the models are, and only playing it casually unless a TO approves it ahead of time. Generally, counts-as isn't done for warmahordes (unlike 40k) but casually playing, "rule of cool" definitely applies. I've had no trouble getting games, and that will only get better once the army is painted and the bases well labeled. It's all about making it awesome and simultaneously, Really clear what everything is. I'm only fielding certain units because of this, and was very careful about selecting the models I'm using. Most are unmistakable - the swamp horror is a tentacled nautiloid model from Deep Wars, the ironback spitter is an awesome turtle from Kaha Miniatures, etc.

Luckily I like most of the Cryx models so I don't have any issues with this system. I have used in-faction proxies just to try things out before buying them.

That said, I have absolutely no problem with anyone using whatever minis they like.

The only thing I think I may have a problem with is say a 30mm based mini represeting a much larger one. Like most other systems movement ranges and melee ranges are important and key to playing the game.

And that's the biggest thing to remember, it's a game. Just use whatever minis you like and if you've taken the time to make them your own and they all look awesome then even better. I would much rather play against a heavily converted and fully painted 40k counts as army than a just built and not even undercoated WM/Hs army!

Just be sure to tag your bases!

I have found for friendly stuff that you can use counts as no problem. In fact, what originally pulled me into WM/H was I was looking at some of the models to use for 40K.

The problem with 40K is most of the models just don't really fit in very well. Though you may get some mileage out of Dark elder or elder as retribution. But I've seen some very interesting conversions like Necron Cryx.

So I totally understand where you are coming from. I tried the same thing and ended up just playing with almost all PP models (which for me I prefer anyways). I do have a few non-pp models for a few things (mostly solos).

Truthfully though. I have found the WM/H community to really dig conversions and counts as models especially if they are well done, well painted and well carried out. The rule of cool pretty much always wins out.

You just have to be smart about things.remmber, when converting stuff in warmachine, make like a warcaster and go epic.

Behold the legion of mechablight.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?198539-And-now-for-something-completely-different

Samurai retribution.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?219743-WIP-scyrah-samoura%EF-army

Hms griffon.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?192274-HMS-Griffon-Gun-Carraige-to-Airship-Conversion

Titan calves playing at mammoths (most epic conversion ever).
http://guildwarmachine.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/mammoth-conversion.html
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?159088-The-Gestalt-Mammoth&highlight=mammoth

Converted orgoth army.
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?194308-Crimson-Harvest-the-Revenge-of-the-Orgoth

I decided to pick up some Mercs, because they're the easiest for me to counts-as until I figure out what I want.

Also the storm-dor. The Khador models done up with storm tech.

Is that true about 'most of the model must be the model for which the rules were written' ? (Tourneys I know)

If so, I'm a little let down. I hate the Karchev and Behemoth models. So I converted up ones out of Jugg kits.

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
Is that true about 'most of the model must be the model for which the rules were written' ? (Tourneys I know)

If so, I'm a little let down. I hate the Karchev and Behemoth models. So I converted up ones out of Jugg kits.

It depends on the to organiser. Ultimately they have discretion to 'ok' things even if they don't technically follow the conversion rules as written. And I've never seen one dismiss a cool conversion or theme.

Just be clever about things...

Well, there is still that rule about non-PP models, which kinda defeats the purpose for me. Looking at my local area a little closer, it turns out that tournaments do actually account for less play than I thought. I just didn't want to bring my army to GenCon and get booted.

And Deadnight, you have no idea how clever I can be...

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
Well, there is still that rule about non-PP models, which kinda defeats the purpose for me...

I had no issues from opponents or organisers for using non pp models at the Scottish masters...


Just saying...

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
Hmmm... that's nice to hear. I was thinking more about Iron Arena this year at GenCon, but I suppose just going to the LGS and picking up a game is worth a shot.

You should probably be able to find some games at Iron Arena(some people may not play you, but most should). Just accept ahead of time that you won't get to play on the premium Scenario tables during the day.

I thought about making a topic for this question, but it's probably best to post it here as it is relevant. Could I play a model with an ironclad torso and centurion arms as a centurion in a tournament, as the models are extremely similar?

 Sienisoturi wrote:
I thought about making a topic for this question, but it's probably best to post it here as it is relevant. Could I play a model with an ironclad torso and centurion arms as a centurion in a tournament, as the models are extremely similar?

probably. The important part in a tourney is that the model is quickly and easily identifiable. If you did a good job on the conversion it sold not be an issue. Either get pre approval from the TO or bring a related model along to replace it if needed.

I haven't experienced any problems with conversions in Warmachine. I run my "Syntherion" and gotten nothing but compliments.
50% of the model must be original, but that's for official tournaments, which I never go to.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:

2) There really isn't a lot of flexibility when it comes to mixing and matching models (this one has a storm bolter! YAY "variety")

Yes there is. There are tons of oppourtunity for conversions in 40k, seriously just google (40k conversion).

As for WM/H just google (warmachine/Hordes conversion). For official tournaments 50% of the model "must" be original for official tournaments but I have seen pressgangers look the other way when it looks suitably well done. It should like like it took more effort to create than just buying and painting a model. The point of the "rule" is to make sure you're supporting PP not Reaper minis because it is their game but if it looks good, especially if it looks better than the original, I couldn't care less where the components came from.

just remember always run any conversions / counts-as by your Tournament Organizer to make sure there are no issues.

I re-read that post and it totally didn't make sense to me! This is what I get for not drinking....
What I mean is that, in 40k (as a DE player), I can convert my entire army to look however I want it, but it's still going to be a millionty Kabalites with rifles. In WM/H, I have tons of choice as far as "core infantry" goes.

My current Kabalites are built from about 5 different kits. Sorry for saying almost the exact opposite of what I meant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadnight wrote:

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
Well, there is still that rule about non-PP models, which kinda defeats the purpose for me...

I had no issues from opponents or organisers for using non pp models at the Scottish masters...
Just saying...

What were you using? I really think I'm just psyching myself out, and should go and have fun no matter what.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
I really think I'm just psyching myself out, and should go and have fun no matter what.

You said it yourself.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:
I re-read that post and it totally didn't make sense to me! This is what I get for not drinking....
What I mean is that, in 40k (as a DE player), I can convert my entire army to look however I want it, but it's still going to be a millionty Kabalites with rifles. In WM/H, I have tons of choice as far as "core infantry" goes.

Ah I see. Well you need to look at the games differently. 40k has say 3 core units (Kabalites, Wyches & Wracks) but you can gear the differently. 10 kabalites in a raider with splinter racks does a different job than 5 kabalites in a venom sporting blasters, does a different job than 20 kabalites sitting back on an objective with dark lances does a different job than wyches with power swords, is used differently than wyches with power axes (forgive me I'm not familiar with the current DE dex) does a different job than 5 wyches with haywire in a venom.

40k units while similar, when geared differently do completely different jobs.

WM/H units are very flat. Aside adding a character upgrade the unit is the unit. However in order to give the game more dimension they have MORE units. Think of cataphract. Is not a cataphract acuraii, cetarii and incendarii the same exact thing but given different weapons? Are not praetorian swordsman the same as karax, keltarii, and to a lesser extend ferox the same soldiers but given different "options"?

So think like: Core: Praetorian swordsman: for +X ppm each model may be given a keltarii instead of sword. For +Y ppm each model may exchange their swords for a shield & spear...

Just trying to shed some light.

 melkorthetonedeaf wrote:


What were you using? I really think I'm just psyching myself out, and should go and have fun no matter what.

See my post in the 'WMH conversion showcase' thread below.

Converted war dog, sorscha, doom reavers (all non pp) fenris, great bears (non pp bits), more doom reavers (non pp bits), converted Nyss hunters, converted irusk2 (non pp bits), converted vlad3 (vlad2 body fits on a horse...) and various other stuff.

Very much a case of psyching yourself out. Just get on with it, and enjoy it.

I joined my local WMH fb group! Shut up already!