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Hang them all, God will know his own....

How many times do you think that this appeals hearing will be pushed back?

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Hang them all, God will know his own....

How many times do you think that this appeals hearing will be pushed back?

The Auld Grump

IMHO as many times as GW can get away with.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Hang them all, God will know his own....

How many times do you think that this appeals hearing will be pushed back?

The Auld Grump

That all depends on the mediator. Lord knows what the parties are up to right now. We do know that settlement failed when the lawsuit was filed, it failed pre-trial, and it failed post-trial. That doesn't mean it will fail now, but in more than three years of litigation the parties have been unable to come to a settlement.

weeble1000 wrote:


That all depends on the mediator. Lord knows what the parties are up to right now. We do know that settlement failed when the lawsuit was filed, it failed pre-trial, and it failed post-trial. That doesn't mean it will fail now, but in more than three years of litigation the parties have been unable to come to a settlement.

I agree. I don't have the legal experience that you do but my opinion is that Chapterhouse counsel smell blood in the water and they ultimately have little to lose whereas GW has everything to lose in regards to their moat and wall, or whatever, being breached in the US for all time.

It's very hard to agree on a settlement when you've done nothing wrong and the other party wants nothing short of your company no longer existing. There's no middle ground;

Maybe one party wants to keep this up in the air, so to speak.

 loki old fart wrote:
Maybe one party wants to keep this up in the air, so to speak.

Well, it can't be kept up in the air forever. Both parties have filed appeals. The court will not hold those appeals in limbo forever, and it is principally the mediator that will determine when the briefing schedule will be reinstated. Unless the parties really are hashing out the details of a settlement, I don't think we'll see the briefing schedule suspended for more than another couple of months.

 agnosto wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:


That all depends on the mediator. Lord knows what the parties are up to right now. We do know that settlement failed when the lawsuit was filed, it failed pre-trial, and it failed post-trial. That doesn't mean it will fail now, but in more than three years of litigation the parties have been unable to come to a settlement.

I agree. I don't have the legal experience that you do but my opinion is that Chapterhouse counsel smell blood in the water and they ultimately have little to lose whereas GW has everything to lose in regards to their moat and wall, or whatever, being breached in the US for all time.

Maybe GW should not have built their moat and wall out of sand... below the high tide mark on the beach, and now the tide is rolling in....

I can picture Kirby as Canute, without the sarcasm that King Canute was trying to convey. (And that seem to have been lost by modern pundits referencing Canute - the man knew that he could not hold back the tide, and was being snarky at the flatterers in his court.)

The Auld Grump or, just maybe, Shelley's Ozymandius - Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair....

weeble1000 wrote:

 loki old fart wrote:
Maybe one party wants to keep this up in the air, so to speak.

Well, it can't be kept up in the air forever. Both parties have filed appeals. The court will not hold those appeals in limbo forever, and it is principally the mediator that will determine when the briefing schedule will be reinstated. Unless the parties really are hashing out the details of a settlement, I don't think we'll see the briefing schedule suspended for more than another couple of months.

Can't help thinking GW want this to stay in limbo, till at least after the next financial statement. In the hope of better news. The share holders must be jittery by now.

Not sure - the stockholders may not be expecting dividends at this point, so might hold on simply to let the stock inflate again....

GW has done some things that they may well be able to spin as improvements, whether or not that is the case.

The big question becomes... how is their bottom line doing?

For 2014 I have spent around $75 on Chapterhouse models, and -$175 on GW models (selling off my old plastic Deathwing models - that used the older smaller termies from second edition Space Hulk). So I have spent more on Chapterhouse, but made more on GW.

Barring a fantastic new WHFB or WH40K in the relatively near future... I think that I am done with GW.

On the plus side, for GW, I was glad to see that they didn't decide to skip the Wood Elves entirely.

On topic - I do not think that the appeals decisions will be made in time to affect the upcoming financial report.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
On topic - I do not think that the appeals decisions will be made in time to affect the upcoming financial report.

The Auld Grump

Would it be cynical to think that whatever the delay here is might suddenly disappear as soon as the cut off for that report has passed?

 jonolikespie wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
On topic - I do not think that the appeals decisions will be made in time to affect the upcoming financial report.

The Auld Grump

Would it be cynical to think that whatever the delay here is might suddenly disappear as soon as the cut off for that report has passed?

I would say it would be giving GW too much credit. GW has never demonstrated that level of strategic thinking during the course of the litigation.

I always thought Austrian courts were slow, but this is getting absurd. Do appeals in the US generally take this long to even BEGIN?

 Allod wrote:
I always thought Austrian courts were slow, but this is getting absurd. Do appeals in the US generally take this long to even BEGIN?

Postponements and continuations.... Requested by one side or another - not the court's fault.

I suspect that at this point GW is just trying to delay the inevitable - and are expecting to lose more in the appeals than they are likely to gain.

I also suspect that they will continue to do so for as long as possible, rather than delaying until after the financial report, then hurrying it along so that the stockholders have a chance to forget before the next report.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Allod wrote:
I always thought Austrian courts were slow, but this is getting absurd. Do appeals in the US generally take this long to even BEGIN?

Postponements and continuations.... Requested by one side or another - not the court's fault.

I suspect that at this point GW is just trying to delay the inevitable - and are expecting to lose more in the appeals than they are likely to gain.

I also suspect that they will continue to do so for as long as possible, rather than delaying until after the financial report, then hurrying it along so that the stockholders have a chance to forget before the next report.

The Auld Grump

Actually, exactly the Court's fault. The parties are engaged in court-ordered mediation. Now, it could be that GW is pretending to be reasonable to string along the mediation process, but that would be a complex and risky game. I doubt that's what is going on. More likely is that the mediator has the parties working on some sort of document/response/meeting schedule. As I said previously, if the process is strung out past the end of May, there might be something substantive going on in the settlement negotiations. It hasn't even been three months since the Court suspended the briefing schedule indefinitely.

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Allod wrote:
I always thought Austrian courts were slow, but this is getting absurd. Do appeals in the US generally take this long to even BEGIN?

Postponements and continuations.... Requested by one side or another - not the court's fault.

I suspect that at this point GW is just trying to delay the inevitable - and are expecting to lose more in the appeals than they are likely to gain.

I also suspect that they will continue to do so for as long as possible, rather than delaying until after the financial report, then hurrying it along so that the stockholders have a chance to forget before the next report.

The Auld Grump

Actually, exactly the Court's fault. The parties are engaged in court-ordered mediation. Now, it could be that GW is pretending to be reasonable to string along the mediation process, but that would be a complex and risky game. I doubt that's what is going on. More likely is that the mediator has the parties working on some sort of document/response/meeting schedule. As I said previously, if the process is strung out past the end of May, there might be something substantive going on in the settlement negotiations. It hasn't even been three months since the Court suspended the briefing schedule indefinitely.

Heh - I was more blaming Moskin for delaying by stringing along the mediation process - not so much GW itself. A risky ploy that may redound against his own client does not seem below him.

But then, the more that I read of the man... the less that I like him....

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Allod wrote:
I always thought Austrian courts were slow, but this is getting absurd. Do appeals in the US generally take this long to even BEGIN?

Postponements and continuations.... Requested by one side or another - not the court's fault.

I suspect that at this point GW is just trying to delay the inevitable - and are expecting to lose more in the appeals than they are likely to gain.

I also suspect that they will continue to do so for as long as possible, rather than delaying until after the financial report, then hurrying it along so that the stockholders have a chance to forget before the next report.

The Auld Grump

Actually, exactly the Court's fault. The parties are engaged in court-ordered mediation. Now, it could be that GW is pretending to be reasonable to string along the mediation process, but that would be a complex and risky game. I doubt that's what is going on. More likely is that the mediator has the parties working on some sort of document/response/meeting schedule. As I said previously, if the process is strung out past the end of May, there might be something substantive going on in the settlement negotiations. It hasn't even been three months since the Court suspended the briefing schedule indefinitely.

Heh - I was more blaming Moskin for delaying by stringing along the mediation process - not so much GW itself. A risky ploy that may redound against his own client does not seem below him.

But then, the more that I read of the man... the less that I like him....

The Auld Grump

Negotiating settlement typically involves way too much involvement from the clinet for it to be srategically directed by an attorney in a substantive way. When it comes to settlement, attorneys are usually on a short leash with specific goals and firm parameters. And if you think GW is letting Mosking plan anything you'd be off your rocker. Not after his performance in the trial.

But then again, this is GW we're talking about...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
But then again, this is GW we're talking about...

Yea, GW. The company that can't tie its shoe without direct permission from Tom Kirby.

weeble1000 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
But then again, this is GW we're talking about...

Yea, GW. The company that can't tie its shoe without direct permission from Tom Kirby.

When was the last time you saw signs of competence from Kirby?

Hell... Kirby is the wellspring of incompetence for GW - that whole Castle Wall and Moat nonsense, built on IP cobbled from a dozen sources, both historical and fictional.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
But then again, this is GW we're talking about...

Yea, GW. The company that can't tie its shoe without direct permission from Tom Kirby.

When was the last time you saw signs of competence from Kirby?

Hell... Kirby is the wellspring of incompetence for GW - that whole Castle Wall and Moat nonsense, built on IP cobbled from a dozen sources, both historical and fictional.

The Auld Grump

All I'm saying is that one should not associate incompetence with giving a lawyer too much latitude in this instance because Kirby's brand of incompetence is inability to change, trust, or deligate.

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
But then again, this is GW we're talking about...

Yea, GW. The company that can't tie its shoe without direct permission from Tom Kirby.

When was the last time you saw signs of competence from Kirby?

Hell... Kirby is the wellspring of incompetence for GW - that whole Castle Wall and Moat nonsense, built on IP cobbled from a dozen sources, both historical and fictional.

The Auld Grump

All I'm saying is that one should not associate incompetence with giving a lawyer too much latitude in this instance because Kirby's brand of incompetence is inability to change, trust, or delegate.

You left out willful ignorance, I think. He does not know the nature of his own products and IP, and is only concerned with controlling said IP and his company's lead in the market.

We will see - but Moskin got up to enough mischief in the case itself, and was allowed to get away with some of it, that I would not be surprised to see it continue. I can all too easily see GW making a blanket request of Moskin and Co. to delay the appeals as long as possible, regardless of consequences.

But you are right - in theory this should be handled in close conjunction with the client, with the client's voice being the one heard. Mediation is a chance to reach an acceptable and face saving compromise. However, I just do not see GW having enough competence to reign in Moskin, while I can see them egging him on, even at their own cost.

It is more than likely that I am biased against GW, and am unwilling to grant them any shred of legitimate compromise in the mediation.

Hell, GW at some point should have, and probably was, informed that this was not a case that would improve their situation, yet they bulled on for years and made any number of... choices of dubious legality and morality in pursuit of destroying Chapterhouse.

Your opinion is more likely to be true, but without transcripts of the proceedings... we are both guessing - yours is just the much more informed guess.

I do wish that the attempt at mediation would either be dealt with or abandoned, but, at the same time, I can see the court's frustration of this long and acrimonious case being fought over... toy soldiers.

I am certain that the judge felt like standing on top of his podium and shouting 'Grow up and stop playing with toys!!1!'

The Auld Grump

Is there any sort of an upcoming date? or was this effectively swept to the curb?

 paulson games wrote:
Is there any sort of an upcoming date? or was this effectively swept to the curb?

As far as the docket is concerned the case is still in court-mandated mediation.

02/07/2014 10 ORDER: Pursuant to Circuit Rule 33, briefing is SUSPENDED pending further court order. [10] RJS [6550870] [14-1027, 14-1118] (CD)

My guess is that if the case is not out of mediation by the end of May (or thereabouts) it could mean that the parties are engaged in substantive, productive settlement discussions. But that is only a guess based on what I have observed in terms of mandatory mediation in other cases.

I don't think the case has been swept to the curb. That said, if there's no activity on the docket in the next few weeks I would be curious to know what is going on behind the scenes.

Sorry for teasing by posting, but I have a relevant question for the legal minded here.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/its-payback-time-as-findthebest-wrests-legal-fees-from-patent-troll

Given the fee-shifting rules, couldn't this be ruled an "exceptional" case - especially if Chapterhouse appeals and wins?

rigeld2 wrote:
Sorry for teasing by posting, but I have a relevant question for the legal minded here.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/its-payback-time-as-findthebest-wrests-legal-fees-from-patent-troll

Given the fee-shifting rules, couldn't this be ruled an "exceptional" case - especially if Chapterhouse appeals and wins?

It doesn't seem like it needs to be "extraordinary" if Chapterhouse succeeds in its appeal. Chapterhouse has argued that GW provided zero evidence of copyright infringement for a majority of the claims. I have trouble imagining a denial of reasonable attorney fees when a case against an indigent defendant results in a directed verdict due to an utter failure to present any evidence to support dozens of claims made in the course of a week long trial.

That of course would be premised on the 7th circuit court of appeals ruling that a witness with no direct knowledge of the creation of a work is unable to provide evidence of protected expression.

In any case, the article is very interesting. US courts are beginning to come down harder on patent trolls. The judiciary doesn't want the legislators to deal with the problem and muck it up. Similarly, as in the New Egg litigation, companies are starting to become wiser about how to deal with patent trolls other than by rolling over and paying nuisance settlements. The USPTO needs to get on the train too. The trifecta of courts, the USPTO, and defendants seriously addressing the persistent problem of patent troll litigation would break its back.

What page is the verdict on? Or link to page? It would be nice if the original post was updated or page that the verdict was on was added to thread title. Thanks.

 Perturabo's Chosen wrote:
What page is the verdict on? Or link to page? It would be nice if the original post was updated or page that the verdict was on was added to thread title. Thanks.

Which specific verdict? There were many, many, many different issues being decided, and some went in GW's favor and some went in Chapterhouse's. I asked if anyone had a list a couple of times, but never heard anything back so I stopped asking.

[disclaimer] I have no respect for BoLS [/disclaimer]

Here is a link that has, what I believe to be, a fairly decent summery:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?33351-LEGALWATCH-Games-Workshop-vs-Chapterhouse-Verdict

I think it's accurate and all, just stay out of the comments section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh god... I actually did wander into those comments.

It's... horrifyingly beautiful. Like a train wreck.

Ugh. I made the mistake of jumping to the last few pages...almost curious how they got stuck on drunk Eurovision ramblings....nah, never mind.