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Hi, I made a deal with Japehlio for my Bretonnian army to be painted. We agreed on a price and I shipped the army to him (Ireland)

He recieved the army July 29 2014 and began to work on it, but pm's between us became less frequent.

July-November: I was updated with 1 photo of a Bretonnian Horse no rider to see what I thought on scheme, I said it was good
December: He apologized for lack of updates said it was related to work stuff etc, I said that was fine since I totally get work and family take precedence over a side painting business. He then posted 5 pictures containing Bretonnian models about 70% done (70% painted not 70% of the army done) He also said that with the new years check he would refund me some of the payment I gave as an apology. He also said he would take more pictures since there was more models apparently done as well.

His last message was sent December 27th 2014, I have tried to get updates during this time maybe once a week at first, but more recently I check each day on Facebook (we have since dakka moved our conversation to Facebook)

The painting studio that did the jobs facebook page is
https://www.facebook.com/OutcastStudio

and here is their post of my army
https://www.facebook.com/OutcastStudio/photos/a.596260097074951.1073741835.589876004380027/811619758872316/?type=1&theater


I do not believe I was intentionally ripped off I think he realized the job was bigger than he could handle (time wise etc) and so has pushed it off and off over time. I believe now he is either ignoring me so he doesnt have to think about it or has decided to keep my money and my Bretonnians.

Its around 220 Bretonnian models and was my very first army which I hold very dear. Bretonnia was the whole reason I started Warhammer and all I want is to have them once again at my side. If he doesnt want to paint them anymore I just want him to ship them back and pay me back what I sent to him, keeping some % based on what he has painted % wise would be fair.

If anyone could help me get them back that would be excellent, perhaps someone in Ireland could help, but I am not sure what I can do.





Thanks for reading,

First off I'd try and get hold of a phone number for them,

at best you can talk over what's going on and what to do next

at worst they put the phone down on you and you know you're going to have to (try to) get tough

If you shipped the army to them you should have an address (and hopefully a persons name) which can be used to get a phone number from somewhere like

http://www.thephonebook.bt.com/publisha.content/en//search/residential/search.publisha?Surname=&Location=&Initial=&Street=#

I have his Skype/Name, Real Name, Facebook Profile, and Address. I will try that link out see if I can get his number thanks for the advise.


EDIT: No luck on the Phone number, it doesnt come up

Timofeo, i'm sending you a PM with some ideas.

Firstly, understand what you have asked for.

Realistically, 220 models to a decent tabletop standard should be setting you back at a minimum around $3000. It would take me the best part of 6 months to a high end finish (I'd be charging significantly more) and I'd be staggering the job with other projects to keep cash flow going. Make no mistake, that's a big, long job you have there.

If it's not, it is extremely likely that your commission guy is experiencing horrible cash flow issues. And like it or not, food, rent, heat and water take priority over painting someone else's toy soldiers. People tend to expect unrealistic pricing and/or timescales for the work involved, and that means inexperienced studios attempt to work at those rates. Untenably. This is particularly a problem if there are 'staff painters' involved. There's a double-edged reason I'm still capable and willing to do commission work. I charge appropriately because I know how long the work takes.

I've not looked at the specific service you mention, their pricing or working standards. I'll have a look now and chime in with an evaluation.

The main piece of advice I can give you is to be patient and zen about it. There are only 2 ways it can go; the work is either economically viable to be complete, or it isn't. By viable I mean within the constraints of the quote you were given at the outset.
If it's viable, it will take as long as it takes, if you're patient. You may get a good result for your money. The studio may decide that pulling out the stops for you and running the project as a back-burner for showcasing is worthwhile. I have a project like this that I made a balls up of organising with subcontractors and am progressing as best I can (no more army jobs until it's done). This sort of stuff can happen.
If it's not viable, then it may be worth just writing off what you've paid for the partial work to get your models back, or allowing the studio to buy out of the agreement, by refunding in part and sending models back, replacing models, whatever. Really speaking if the project is going South real fast, the studio should offer this as soon as they're aware of problems.

Lastly, bear in mind commission guys are human, and working for peanuts in most cases. Generally rather than face a terrible situation where it's becoming apparent that you can't viably do what you thought you could, the reaction is to clam up and hide a bit. Be upfront and reasonable, not argumentative and it should be easier to get dialog going again.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, had a look. 3 painters, one site, and I see no real scale projects completed in the photo albums. Gmail address, no registered domain.

Paintwork is ok tabletop level stuff.
Photography is amateurish.
Album layout and posting is also a bit amateurish.

If the quote was low, I fully stand my assessment of cash flow problems.

Did you pay/deal with a specific person, or a gestalt for the studio? If the studio has its own overheads to cover out of revenue, paying its artists may be further down the list; having an artist walk or become unavailable or uninterested really sucks for a studio manager trying to get projects done while making some money for the studio.

Looks a wee bit on the shaky side to me, given they've posted nothing at all on facebook since Christmas. If there are 3 people working there that's a very bad sign on project throughput. They're not good enough to be working for manufacturers under NDA.

All fair points Winterdyne, however the guy has been radio silent since December.

You're suggestion to be zen about it would be valid if he was getting regular, even small updates. he's not. Two of the seven months there's been silence, and from receipt (July) to November, he got one shot of one horse with no rider.

There was, demonstrably, some work done in December, which is very good. But the lions share of the time Outcast Sudio has been radio silent to Timofeo.


I think he's got a valid concern here.

The main issue with your suggestion is that i think Timofeo would GLADLY take his models back at this point. He can't get the guy to respond.

Exactly what is he supposed to do in the face of mostly radio silence ?

I think there's a pragmatism here. A guy in another country has your army and your money. You're probably not going to get what you bargained for, but there's no real recourse, even legally, to do so.

The zen part is to approach the situation calmly and with understanding. The studio is probably not happy about the situation, and offering them an escape hatch might be the best way to recover something.

The other possiblity is that the project will be completed, albiet "eventually."

The "zen" choices are either to wait interminably or accept losing the cash paid and just getting the models back. The tragedy is that the aggressive options will probably have little benefit.

State the situation. My advice to be 'zen' doesn't mean ignore the situation, but to be aware of it.

So to be specific (which as a programmer I love, but as an artist I hate), email the contact, state the suspicion that the project is stalled or failed, and suggest the outs available.

Be aware that it is possible that the studio/artist(s) involved may in fact have no money at all. This might account for Internet silence (hard to be online with no internet). Writing a letter may be an option, especially one requiring a signature or other proof of delivery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In terms of legal recourse, I'm not sure there's nothing to be done at all, so much as nothing to be done practically. You could certainly lodge a claim with the local courts,even as a foreign national. You'd need local legal advice or representation. Gets expensive, and even if your claim is a win, a straw man can't pay.

Basically for $3k, it's just not worthwhile, so its a bit of a case of caveat emptor. In this case specifically, even (actually especially) with an appropriate quote I'd have been wary about engaging a studio without a very professional outlook and proven track record.

For what it's worth, just because it's an international issue does not mean there is no legal recourse. Is it more difficult, absolutely, but by no means impossible. If by legal recourse you mean bring suit for recompense in whatever court is available, yeah, no, that's not economically viable. There are other options.

Outcast Studio is located in Ireland, and that's an English speaking country which makes this all the easier. It gets MUCH more difficult if there's a language barrier.

A legal option that has little chance of success, and will likely cost more than you expect to recover isn't really a good option.

So sure, you can, indeed, try to sue over a few grand across the ocean. It is simply ill advised.

 Polonius wrote:
A legal option that has little chance of success, and will likely cost more than you expect to recover isn't really a good option.

So sure, you can, indeed, try to sue over a few grand across the ocean. It is simply ill advised.

You clearly didn't read my response, and i edited before you posted. I even said bringing suit was not a good option, and you're right it would not be economically viable.

There are other legal options than suing. Fraud is a criminal offense in most countries. As is theft. In most western countries the denial of a person of their property for an unreasonable amount of time is theft, though it varies country to country. Fraud is typically deliberate deception for unlawful gain, that's fraud. Again. Varies country to country, but that's the gist. Both are criminal offenses.

I'm no expert on Irish / UK law, but a little bit of digging shows that theft and fraud both very much have criminal. Being that Outcast Studio is from Belfast, Northern Ireland, then UK law would govern. 8 seconds of google searching turns up this, which confirms Fraud is a criminal offense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud_Act_2006


A chit chat with the local police might lead to them stopping by and having a chat, which could be enough to spur him to respond and offer to send back minis / make refund.

It can and has worked before. It's been on done on Bartertown (a site i frequent and follow all the bad trader threads where the community tries to help people recoup their stuff) when normal channels are exhausted.

You may want to try contacting some of the gaming clubs in Belfast, im in Ireland but south of the border. But if ye need it picked up or sent somewhere neutral, drop me a PM. Im occasionally up near Belfast.

I'd suggest contacting the PSNI and reporting it.

So much nonsense being spoken here...

What I would recommend doing is writing to them using a signed for method with a letter demanding a date for the completion of the project, and if they cannot provide this then the return of your models and of the money paid to them. Give them a set time to reply. 7 or 14 days.

If you don't hear anything you CAN take legal action to recover them. Ignore all of this:

winterdyne wrote:

In terms of legal recourse, I'm not sure there's nothing to be done at all, so much as nothing to be done practically. You could certainly lodge a claim with the local courts,even as a foreign national. You'd need local legal advice or representation. Gets expensive, and even if your claim is a win, a straw man can't pay.

Basically for $3k, it's just not worthwhile, so its a bit of a case of caveat emptor. In this case specifically, even (actually especially) with an appropriate quote I'd have been wary about engaging a studio without a very professional outlook and proven track record.

 Polonius wrote:
A legal option that has little chance of success, and will likely cost more than you expect to recover isn't really a good option.

So sure, you can, indeed, try to sue over a few grand across the ocean. It is simply ill advised.

You can submit a claim via https://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Services/Online_Services/Pages/default.aspx to take them to court. Not sure of the exact costs for NI, but for England and Wales it is £50. You can do it all by post. No one has to go to court to sue. It looks better if you do turn up in most cases, BUT where you are not based in the UK they would 100% accept that you can't turn up, so can present your case in writing.

Sueing someone for a relatively small amount of money, in a simple case like this, is not expensive or difficult at all.

As for the excuses, I see no excuse for what they are doing. You have paid them to do a job, they have failed to do it. The costs and difficulties are their issue as they took on the job.

Thanks for all the advise thus far, currently I have gotten in contact with the owner of the Outcast Studios and may be making some progress into getting ahold of my painter.

 timofeo wrote:
Thanks for all the advise thus far, currently I have gotten in contact with the owner of the Outcast Studios and may be making some progress into getting ahold of my painter.

Awesome. Glad to hear it!

Please keep us updated as i'm sure people are interested that you get made whole, but also that Outcast and / or your painter makes good on his contract with you.

pm me his details if you like, im heading to Ireland and can try a face to face for you if I have time