Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just got the Menoth battle engine from participating in my journeyman league. I have never seen anyone play with battle engines is there a reason? It's just the one range of models you don't hear people talking about. Now Iam pretty new to the game so maybe they could have been the talked about and used more when they first came out. Where do you find the rules for using battle engines?

 Chute82 wrote:
I just got the Menoth battle engine from participating in my journeyman league. I have never seen anyone play with battle engines is there a reason? It's just the one range of models you don't hear people talking about. Now Iam pretty new to the game so maybe they could have been the talked about and used more when they first came out. Where do you find the rules for using battle engines?

A lot of them are meh. Menoth has a great one, Cryx's is pretty bad (and the only one with no ranged attacked), Khador has some utility but only in specific lists (ditto Cygnar, though the Stormwall also hurt it), Ret requires some support to get theirs to full speed, and Mercs don't have one.

The trolls one is situational interesting, the Circle one can be brutal, Skorne's is considered awful, and I don't see Legion's enough to know. Both Minions ones are fantastic.

A lot of the battle engines suffer from being a huge base (easily target-able) and having a high cost with no natural ability to boost (usually, some do).

Most of the battle engines are solidly mid-tier choices. They're compelling in the right list with the right caster, but aren't generally a top pick across the board in any faction. They're all rather different and you can't really make many broad statements about them, save tend have quirky guns and cost around 10 points. So depending on your meta you may just no have any players operating in the spaces where they shine.

You're lucky. The Protectorate battle engine is easily the best of the original run of battle engines and by a pretty wide margin. It's a solid piece through and through, and there are only 1 or 2 casters in the faction that don't have a use for it. The is freely boostable, so it it hits slippery targets. It has a long push effect that get models away from key areas. The Admonisher jumps totally ignore DEF, stealth, girded and a lot of other tricks that protect the kind of squishy models that don't want to take a POW 10. While the huge footprint can be a drawback, it also blocks a ton of line of sight. As a faction that has a lot of casters that want to hide behind something on the rear lines it can be an assest.

You'll find it shines particularly bright with casters that have either have a lot competition for their focus or that support our other ranged options and have a reason to want another big gun. I personally like it a lot with pSeverius. There are compelling arguments for using it with pKreoss, Harbinger, Kreoss3 and some of the less competitive casters.

Convergence's battle engine is quite good and now that the awesome model has come out I've seen many people writing lists involving or revolving around them.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Convergence's battle engine is quite good and now that the awesome model has come out I've seen many people writing lists involving or revolving around them.

Forgot my own Battle Engine. It definitely seems that the second wave of Battle Engines are superior to the first.

Hopefully the same is true for the Gargantuans then. They do seem to learn from their mistakes.

Will we see in the future a second wave of battle engines? Since the first run from most people options on here were less then desirable.

 Chute82 wrote:
Will we see in the future a second wave of battle engines? Since the first run from most people options on here were less then desirable.

Anything is possible but I wouldn't hold your breath.

I expect them to move their design focus around a bit more.

I could see taking the Skorne battle engine in an EXerxis tier list where it's eight points and begins the game full, but I'm not sure about it otherwise. Circle, Legion, and Menoth have the best, I think.

Battle Engines were a bit of a failure overall, save for a few, and a few niche lists that the worst ones fit into.

The emphasis seems to be on colossals, which is a good thing, since this is a game about Warjacks and Warbeasts after all.

Battle engines were, literally, part of a test for making huge base models and how Colossals might work. Now that it's sorted out it seems they want to focus on that.

I think we'll only see new battle engines after another 2-3 years have passed, maybe even after a rules revision like Mk2.5. They need more time to really get a handle on where they fit in, and more capacity in their manufacturing to produce them (they'll be busy making the new 2nd generation colossals). But, at least minions are getting their sacral vault.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Circle, Legion, and Menoth have the best, I think.

I'll go ahead and venture that you've never seen the Gator Engine's rules, then.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Circle, Legion, and Menoth have the best, I think.

I'll go ahead and venture that you've never seen the Gator Engine's rules, then.

I'm annoyed I can't field it in Zaal; it looks cool, I haven't seen it played.

I love the troll one a lot. It's such a great model and it's no slouch in the game either. It's just so hard to fit it in any lists, especially when everyone seems to want to play 35 point games right now.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Circle, Legion, and Menoth have the best, I think.

I'll go ahead and venture that you've never seen the Gator Engine's rules, then.

To be fair, it hasn't been out for a while. Most people don't have one yet.

Went back through Domination and Wrath; I'm thinking my earlier assessment may have been premature. Skorne got a dud, Scyrah got something close, Cygnar got a really specialized one that needs a list built to use it, I'm skeptical about the pigs', but the rest are all fair to awesome (which gives us eight out of twelve good).

Also once you include the Battle Engine warcasters/warlocks the ratio gets even better; EReznik, Lylyth3, and EXerxis are all awesome.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Circle, Legion, and Menoth have the best, I think.

I'll go ahead and venture that you've never seen the Gator Engine's rules, then.

To be fair, it hasn't been out for a while. Most people don't have one yet.

The rules have been out for a while though. October? The Convergence one seems pretty brutal too.

And the Convergence one is the new plastic, so that's exciting as well.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Circle, Legion, and Menoth have the best, I think.

I'll go ahead and venture that you've never seen the Gator Engine's rules, then.

To be fair, it hasn't been out for a while. Most people don't have one yet.

The rules have been out for a while though. October? The Convergence one seems pretty brutal too.

Rules sure, the actual model no.

I wouldn't call battle engines less than desirable. I think you have
to tool lists for specific battle engines.

Battle engines take up a heavy warbeaast or warjack "slot".

Being in about the 10 point range, it's hard to justify a battle engine in a Warmachine army. It's not a warjack, so it can't use focus or benefit from warjack specific effects, it's not a warrior based model, so those spells and effects go out the door... that leaves spells/feats that say something like "target model".

A battle engine has similar stats to a heavy warjack- including MAT, RAT, DEF, ARM and P+S. Not a big deal, until you realize you can't buff them like a Warjack, and most spells won't work on them. They certainly won't benefit from cover, concealment, cloud effects, forests, or elevation. The advantages are not all that advantageous. Sure, they can't be placed, knocked down, or made stationary, and they have pathfinder. But they can always be shot at in close combat without the target in melee penalty, and CRA's always work on them. Pathfinder is nice, until you realize that forests and cloud effects never block line of sight to a battle engine, but a battle engine still can only see 3" into a forest, and can't see OVER a forest. Finally, though they won't suffer system damage the way a warjack/warbeast does, it's all too easy to scrap one. After all, they only have 20 damage boxes. The disadvantages far out weight the advantages.

Think about what you can get in the 10 point range: Typically, a whole unit of infantry and a UA, or two light warjacks, or a minimum unit of infantry, a UA, and a solo or to. A unit of infantry will probably benefit more from any spell cast on them, and there are more spell buffs available to them then a battle engine, they will typically be faster then a battle engine, they will have more attacks then a battle engine (but maybe not as high P+S), and they just give you more options- more attacks, more movement, more benefits... playing with a battle engine in a warmachine army is like playing with a warjack that gets no focus, and has spell ward on it.

It get's even worse in Hordes. You HAVE to take warbeasts for fury and fury maangement. Does a battle engine provide for those things? To a limited extent, the Circle Celestial Fulcrum does. It can generate it's own fury, and a friendly warlock can leech off it. It also has immunity to basically everything... and a lot of ranged attacks. IMHO, the Celestial Fulcrum is probably the only battle engine worth taking. All the other Horde battle engines don't do anything else that a heavy warbeast or unit of infantry can do, and in some cases, better then, a battle engine. If you have all the fury management you need, and your other bases covered, then yeah, go for it! Use a battle engine. They can be fun and worthwile.

Battle engines are not really feasible until you get into the 50 point range. At 35 points, you need a warjack or two, so there's around 10 points (Hordes, it closer to 3 or 4, so 20 points), a unit of infantry+UA for 10 more, leaves you with about 15 points to play with (5 if your a Hordes player). You could use a battle engine, but another unit of infantry and solo or two will benefit you more. Hordes takes solos. If you do take a battle engine at this level, its not a bad thing, but what are you taking away to do it? A heavy Warjack? A unit? Due to fury management in Hordes, you will most likely never see a battle engine at the 35 point level in Hordes. If you do, then take a close look at the fury management the opposing warlock has, and plan accordingly. Or, their entire list is built around a battle engine that can't use focus/fury, can't benefit from a lot of spells/feats, a model you can just about always draw line of sight to...

You can still build a list around battle engines (similar to building a list around a particular unit, warjack, or col/garg), and there are a couple effective ones out there. You just won't see them in a lot of lists, especially at the 35 point level.

Retribution got a sweet Battle Engine. If you don't like it you ain't seen it in action.

The Cryx one is certainly the hardest to use being the only solely dedicated melee one, but it can still do some nice things when used with finesse. It can take down good swaths of infantry or rip a heavy in half with equal ease. Once it gets into the thick of it where it can start collecting souls the amount of destruction it can reap is huge. Unfortunately it's not terribly hard to kill, so it seldom survives long in the thick of it, and that's where the finesse comes in.

But yes, the Menoth one is easily in the top three along with Gator and Convergence. Make sure to scotch tape a mechanic to the back end of it so it can keep using all of its abilities every turn and boost on demand and it should serve you well.

 AduroT wrote:
Retribution got a sweet Battle Engine. If you don't like it you ain't seen it in action.

The Cryx one is certainly the hardest to use being the only solely dedicated melee one, but it can still do some nice things when used with finesse. It can take down good swaths of infantry or rip a heavy in half with equal ease. Once it gets into the thick of it where it can start collecting souls the amount of destruction it can reap is huge. Unfortunately it's not terribly hard to kill, so it seldom survives long in the thick of it, and that's where the finesse comes in.

But yes, the Menoth one is easily in the top three along with Gator and Convergence. Make sure to scotch tape a mechanic to the back end of it so it can keep using all of its abilities every turn and boost on demand and it should serve you well.

All of these things are true. However, a battle engine is easier to kill then a heavy warjack/warbeast. Every list you build should have the capability to destroy a heavy warjack/warbeast in one turn. In all but a few lists, a battle engine is taking the place of a heavy warjack/warbeast. The reverse is NOT true. A battle engine can't destroy a heavy warjack/warbeast in one turn. It needs help from other sources (as it's gonna get very few buffs, if any).

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Circle, Legion, and Menoth have the best, I think.

I'll go ahead and venture that you've never seen the Gator Engine's rules, then.

To be fair, it hasn't been out for a while. Most people don't have one yet.

The rules have been out for a while though. October? The Convergence one seems pretty brutal too.

Rules sure, the actual model no.

Good thing I was talking about the rules and not the model then, huh?

 Tamwulf wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Retribution got a sweet Battle Engine. If you don't like it you ain't seen it in action.

The Cryx one is certainly the hardest to use being the only solely dedicated melee one, but it can still do some nice things when used with finesse. It can take down good swaths of infantry or rip a heavy in half with equal ease. Once it gets into the thick of it where it can start collecting souls the amount of destruction it can reap is huge. Unfortunately it's not terribly hard to kill, so it seldom survives long in the thick of it, and that's where the finesse comes in.

But yes, the Menoth one is easily in the top three along with Gator and Convergence. Make sure to scotch tape a mechanic to the back end of it so it can keep using all of its abilities every turn and boost on demand and it should serve you well.

All of these things are true. However, a battle engine is easier to kill then a heavy warjack/warbeast. Every list you build should have the capability to destroy a heavy warjack/warbeast in one turn. In all but a few lists, a battle engine is taking the place of a heavy warjack/warbeast. The reverse is NOT true. A battle engine can't destroy a heavy warjack/warbeast in one turn. It needs help from other sources (as it's gonna get very few buffs, if any).

With three Souls a Wraith Engine will destroy a Warjack in a single turn.

I always found battle engines a bit underwhelming TBH

 AduroT wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
Retribution got a sweet Battle Engine. If you don't like it you ain't seen it in action.

The Cryx one is certainly the hardest to use being the only solely dedicated melee one, but it can still do some nice things when used with finesse. It can take down good swaths of infantry or rip a heavy in half with equal ease. Once it gets into the thick of it where it can start collecting souls the amount of destruction it can reap is huge. Unfortunately it's not terribly hard to kill, so it seldom survives long in the thick of it, and that's where the finesse comes in.

But yes, the Menoth one is easily in the top three along with Gator and Convergence. Make sure to scotch tape a mechanic to the back end of it so it can keep using all of its abilities every turn and boost on demand and it should serve you well.

All of these things are true. However, a battle engine is easier to kill then a heavy warjack/warbeast. Every list you build should have the capability to destroy a heavy warjack/warbeast in one turn. In all but a few lists, a battle engine is taking the place of a heavy warjack/warbeast. The reverse is NOT true. A battle engine can't destroy a heavy warjack/warbeast in one turn. It needs help from other sources (as it's gonna get very few buffs, if any).

With three Souls a Wraith Engine will destroy a Warjack in a single turn.

And where will it get said three souls? It will either have to collect them itself from a previous turn, or somehow have them fed to it- which can be tricky as there are so many soul collector type models in Cryx. So now it has 3 soul tokens. It charges a heavy warjack (a tricky proposition considering that it's a huge base and all, and one small based model will stop it in it's tracks...). You get a charge attack at P+S 15+3d6, and then upto 4 more P+S 15's+2d6 damage. Most heavies have 18 to 20 ARM, but you have Dark Shroud, so we'll say ARM 19-2 = 17. Your charge attack will do 9 points of damage, and the other 4 attacks will do 5 damage each (15+7=22, -17 = 5), so on average rolls against an assumed average heavy warjack, you've done 29 points of damage. The "lightest" heavy warjack has 30 boxes (the Myrmidon's have fewer boxes, but a force field). Now this is all average of course, and maybe you'll roll better then average, or maybe you roll less then average. If I was a betting man, I would not depend on a Wraith Engine with 3 souls being able to destroy a "average" heavy warjack. That's not to say that a Wraith Engine is bad, it's just incorrect to say that it can one round a heavy warjack. It still needs outside assistance (souls) to even make a good go at it.

The reverse is not true at all. Again, looking at the "average" heavy warjack, it'll have the same MAT as the Wraith Engine, but will only need a 3 to hit (vs. the 5 a Wraith Engine will need against DEF 12). It has two attacks- a P+S 18 and a P+S 14. Let's say it has 3 focus and no buffs. Spends one focus to charge. That's P+S 18 + 3d6 = 28 damage, wraith Engine has ARM 18, so our average heavy warjack just did 11 points of damage in one swing. Next attack P+S 14, will do 3 points of damage. Now, I have two focus left, buy 2 attacks, each attack will do P+S 18+7 = 25, -18 ARM = 7 points of damage with each attack. The average heavy warjack just took 4 swings at the Wraith Engine and did a total of 28 points of damage.

The Wraith Engine can out damage our average heavy warjack by 1 point of damage ( 29 total with 5 attacks, 1 a charge vs. 28 with 4 attacks, one a charge). The average heavy warjack against a Wraith Engine can do 28 points of damage. More than enough to destroy the Wraith Engine. As a matter of fact, our average heavy warjack doesn't even have to charge to destroy the Wraith Engine, while the Wraith Engine needs a charge to even have a chance of destroying the average heavy warjack.

All average rolls, of course, and assuming that neither the Wraith Engine nor our imaginary average heavy warjack has any buffs besides focus/souls.

As a side note, a Retribution Manticore Myrmidon heavy warjack with three focus can increase it's STR +3, charge for the second focus, and with the first attack, do 11 points of damage to the Wraith Engine. (P+S 18+3d6=29, - ARM 18 = 11) Next attack with it's second fist, P+S 18+2d6 = 25 - 18 ARM = 7 damage. With just two attacks, the Wraith Engine has just taken 18 damage on average rolls. And it still has one focus left to buy another attack. Or, it could have increased it's STR +3, charged, and performed a Combo Strike- P+S 23+11 = 34 - 18 ARM = 16 damage with one attack. Second initial attack, P+S 18+2d6 = 25 - 18 ARM = 7 damage, or a total of 23 damage. Again, more than enough to destroy the Wraith Engine, while the Wraith Engine would have a hard time chewing through the 10 points of Force Field and 22 damage boxes (32 total). On the plus side, the Manticore only has ARM 18, so the Wraith Engine could do a total of 33 damage- enough to destroy the Manticore. BTW, that Manticore only cost 8 points.

If we start examining the character warjacks (not the named ones, the so-called "Warjacks of Renown" like Stormclad, Kodiak, Guardian, Seether- all in the 9 point range) with all their little special rules, higher then average MAT and P+S... they are far more effective then any Battle Engine.

I could do the same with heavy warbeasts, but it will be even worse- they all have Fury, and usually 4+ with the P+S to back it up. In those cases, it will really be who can get the charge off first. A quick glance at the Circle Feral Warpwolf says he could destroy the Wraith Engine with just one point of fury for the charge. But the Wraith Engine if it got the charge off, could with average rolls pretty handily destroy the "typical" heavy warbeast- they usually have 2 less ARM and 4 less damage boxes then our average heavy warjack.

Pretty much every Warcaster in Cryx has a means to bump either the Strength of the Wraith Engine or drop the Armor of the Warjack. If you're comparing giving the Warjack a full 3 Focus, it's not out of line to debuff the Warjack, since that's often a priority target. Killing heavy stuff is what Cryx does in Spades.

Collecting Souls on it isn't hard either, as it has a massive 10" collection range, and the great benefit of the Souls is they are not a Warcaster resource. The debuff you apply is, but it also benefits the rest of your army as well and not just the Wraith Engine, so you're getting more mileage out of the Focus if the engine fails. Buffs applies to the engine are often Skarlock applied so again not Warcaster resources.

Wraith Walker and Apparition are also great for getting past annoying intervening models to get to the Target. I've seldom had problems getting the thing to where I want it to be.

My favorite Warcaster to run the Wraith Engine with currently is Asphyxious1 because of his Feat. I almost never save it for any kind of assassination, but pop that thing turn 2 usually to wipe out an enemy unit that I've cast Parasite on. Position the Wraith Engine nearby beforehand, and now it's bloated on Souls. In return it's multitude of reasonably accurate attacks are something I love with Asphyxious1's damage multipliers.

Warbeasts are a different comparison as they do not use Warlock resources, but rather fuel them, so they Want to spend that Fury where Focus is a more precious and limited supply.

The thing with the Wraith Engine in Cryx is not so much the opportunity cost for buying a heavy warjack as cryx infantry. Most 9(or 10) pts of Cryx infantry have zero issue dropping a heavy with models to spare.

Also not every army has living infantry to easily fuel your wraith engine (Covergence for example) so it ends up having the same problem as Alexia2.

 Blood Hawk wrote:
The thing with the Wraith Engine in Cryx is not so much the opportunity cost for buying a heavy warjack as cryx infantry. Most 9(or 10) pts of Cryx infantry have zero issue dropping a heavy with models to spare.

Also not every army has living infantry to easily fuel your wraith engine (Covergence for example) so it ends up having the same problem as Alexia2.

You know that Convergence infantry shed souls still, right?

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:
The thing with the Wraith Engine in Cryx is not so much the opportunity cost for buying a heavy warjack as cryx infantry. Most 9(or 10) pts of Cryx infantry have zero issue dropping a heavy with models to spare.

Also not every army has living infantry to easily fuel your wraith engine (Covergence for example) so it ends up having the same problem as Alexia2.

You know that Convergence infantry shed souls still, right?

Oh yea that's right, NVM.