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So, here we go, a fight between a slaanesh clown and WRYYYYYYYYYYYYY Eversor! How do you think, who'd win in this duel? Both tabletop and fluffwise.

I think I'd give it to the Solitaire, both fluff and tabletop. In game, he's faster, has more attacks and tricks and a better Invuln. Fluff-wise, I'd say it's no contest, the Solitaire has thousands of years of experience, can move and fight faster even than the Eversor, and is also more in control of himself, once the Eversor's Frenzon and other Combat Drug kick in.

For charging headlong into the enemy lines, I'd choose an Eversor most times, but one on one, the Solitaire takes it.

Solitaire all day, every day, for every purpose.

But doesn't eversor have 4++ followed up by FNP and t4? Making him more durable than a Solitaire. He also has a cool pistol and gauntlet. Though, the main difficulty would be to survive the initial assault.

Solitaire's s3, right? Means with his 1-use 10 attacks he'll deal 2.22 wounds before saves which will result in just one wound. Or am i missing something about the solitaire?

Have you counted in his wargear?

With 10 attacks and 3+ to hit, it should be enough to just ID the Eversor with a Kiss.

(The Kiss was ID on 6s to wound, right?)

One vs. One... Solitaire.

In a Gimli-Legolas-style contest of who can kill more Ork-Boyz-per-minute ... Eversor.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Have you counted in his wargear?

With 10 attacks and 3+ to hit, it should be enough to just ID the Eversor with a Kiss.

(The Kiss was ID on 6s to wound, right?)

Oh, that's ~55% to kill an eversor outright. Guess, it makes a difference. But what if an eversor survives? He'll probably deal like 1-2 wounds in return too. And than it's round 2 with less attacks for solitaire but higher ini. Than Eversor explodes and has a chance to finish solitaire off.

Yep, seems like solitaire has around 60-70% of winning if he's not hurt. But what if the eversor takes first turn and infiltrates + shoots lining up to shoot overwatch at full bs?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think fluffwise it'd be like this.
Solitaire charges, inflicts deadly wounds but by the time he completely incapacitates the Eversor (due to drugs it's gona take some time), he'd suffer a few return blows that'd cripple him. Than the eversor finally dies and KABOOOMS finishing off the solitaire. Everyone dies.

Pretty sure a Solitaire could outrun an explosion. In game, he can Blitz once per game for balancing purposes, in fluff-wise I reckon he can move that fast pretty much whenever he was.

I like to think of a Solitaire in combat very much like Quicksilver in 'X-men Days of Future Past'. In the space of a bullet crossing 10 feet, he can stroll around the room, incapacitating or maiming a dozen opponents, and still have time to flick those bullets out of the way before they hit their target.

My own perspective on 40k has the Space Marines pretty much as the worth-100-men badasses they are in some fluff, I reckon a Solitaire could take out a full squad without breaking a sweat. In other words, if my view of SM is in line with Movie Marines, then imagine Movie Eldar...

 Paradigm wrote:
Pretty sure a Solitaire could outrun an explosion. In game, he can Blitz once per game for balancing purposes, in fluff-wise I reckon he can move that fast pretty much whenever he was.

I like to think of a Solitaire in combat very much like Quicksilver in 'X-men Days of Future Past'. In the space of a bullet crossing 10 feet, he can stroll around the room, incapacitating or maiming a dozen opponents, and still have time to flick those bullets out of the way before they hit their target.

My own perspective on 40k has the Space Marines pretty much as the worth-100-men badasses they are in some fluff, I reckon a Solitaire could take out a full squad without breaking a sweat. In other words, if my view of SM is in line with Movie Marines, then imagine Movie Eldar...

I agree with this. Quicksilver is a good comparison.

Here is what I think would happen:

Eversor enters combat area and stims himself up, going SGHSJIAJFIOFJAFMAIJASIUFHIUANMIOMFIJ

Solitaire enters arena and begins running. Solitaire quite literally disassembles the Eversor before he can as much as raise his blade in anger.

Solitaire wins. Fatality.

 Paradigm wrote:


I like to think of a Solitaire in combat very much like Quicksilver in 'X-men Days of Future Past'. In the space of a bullet crossing 10 feet, he can stroll around the room, incapacitating or maiming a dozen opponents, and still have time to flick those bullets out of the way before they hit their target.

Real question is, can he also magically speed up a 1970s Sony Walkman to play a song at his own super-tempo without tangling (or burning) the tape? Or would he be doomed to listen to only that fraction of a note that would play in the time of a bullet crossing 10 feet?

Wonderwolf wrote:
One vs. One... Solitaire.

In a Gimli-Legolas-style contest of who can kill more Ork-Boyz-per-minute ... Eversor.

Gimli-Legolas-style contest..... that now needs to be a comparison value for stuff in 40k

Wonderwolf wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:


I like to think of a Solitaire in combat very much like Quicksilver in 'X-men Days of Future Past'. In the space of a bullet crossing 10 feet, he can stroll around the room, incapacitating or maiming a dozen opponents, and still have time to flick those bullets out of the way before they hit their target.

Real question is, can he also magically speed up a 1970s Sony Walkman to play a song at his own super-tempo without tangling (or burning) the tape? Or would he be doomed to listen to only that fraction of a note that would play in the time of a bullet crossing 10 feet?

He's a thousand-year-old magic space elf from the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy... what do you think?


Damn, I'm now half-tempted to model some headphones on a solitaire!

We need some clarification on the rules here:

1) The harlequins kiss only gives 1 str 6 ap2 attack per turn, and only this 1 attack will cause instant death on a roll of a 6 to wound.

2) The solitaire could use the harlequins caress instead, this will cause an auto wounding ap2 hit on a hit roll of a 6.

3) The solitaire gets 10 attacks for 1 game turn if he uses a special ability to move in the movement phase, this means it must charge, it also has hit and run, letting it charge multiple times: However, the eversor gets 4 bolt pistol shots at BS8 for overwatch. These hit an 2's and wound on 3's, making them fairly dangerous for the solitaire.

4) The solitaire has more attacks and a better WS, the eversor has better toughness and fleshbane.

Mathhammer time: (with both charging and non charging values, they inclue feel no pain, furious charge and any other special rules).

The solitaire on the charge with blitz, furious charge and caress deals 1.666 wounds to the eversor.
(With a harlequin's kiss he only manages 0.7 wounds on the charge, but has a 5.6% chance of causing instant death).
The solitaire in an ongoing combat: attacking with the caress deals 0.778 wounds.

The eversor causes 1.111 wounds on the charge.
In an ongoing combat he does 0.556 wounds.
So, either on the charge or in an ongoing combat the solitaire is ahead.

The eversor can however do overwatch, which will do 0.81 wounds on average, and will on average do 0.2777 wounds when he explodes upon death, making a draw possible. (I didn't calculate a normal charge from the solitaire, as I doubt most players would do so when you consider the overwatch damage, only a blitz charge would statistically be worth it).

All in all, I would say the solitaire is still slightly ahead, but not by much. Bad dice rolls could sway it either side imo. I am a little surprised actually, as before calculating I expected the solitaire to do much better.

In terms of the fluff, I believe the solitaire would have much better odds, however.

 koooaei wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Have you counted in his wargear?

With 10 attacks and 3+ to hit, it should be enough to just ID the Eversor with a Kiss.

(The Kiss was ID on 6s to wound, right?)

Oh, that's ~55% to kill an eversor outright. Guess, it makes a difference. But what if an eversor survives? He'll probably deal like 1-2 wounds in return too. And than it's round 2 with less attacks for solitaire but higher ini. Than Eversor explodes and has a chance to finish solitaire off.

Yep, seems like solitaire has around 60-70% of winning if he's not hurt. But what if the eversor takes first turn and infiltrates + shoots lining up to shoot overwatch at full bs?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think fluffwise it'd be like this.
Solitaire charges, inflicts deadly wounds but by the time he completely incapacitates the Eversor (due to drugs it's gona take some time), he'd suffer a few return blows that'd cripple him. Than the eversor finally dies and KABOOOMS finishing off the solitaire. Everyone dies.

Solitaire has jumped head-first into a horde of Daemonettes and a Keeper of Secrets. He butchered them all, including the Greater Daemon (it's his job to kill Greater Daemons) . He could certainly out-run the explosion, or just outright kill the Eversor in the first exchange of blows.

Big blind bill, for the sake of those who feel the solitaire can use the caress but one attack is from the kiss. How does the fight turn out then?

I feel like it would be an Indiana Jones sort of moment. I picture the Solitaire step out of a large crowd of buddies and start doing his "super fast colorful scintillating dance moves" while waving his weapons around. The Eversor then pulls out his pistol, fires off a shot, turns his back and walks away shaking his head.

Course the rules might not match that, but it's what popped into my noggin.

The Eversor would never hit.

Fluffwise, that is. Solitaires are insane.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
We need some clarification on the rules here:

1) The harlequins kiss only gives 1 str 6 ap2 attack per turn, and only this 1 attack will cause instant death on a roll of a 6 to wound.

2) The solitaire could use the harlequins caress instead, this will cause an auto wounding ap2 hit on a hit roll of a 6.

3) The solitaire gets 10 attacks for 1 game turn if he uses a special ability to move in the movement phase, this means it must charge, it also has hit and run, letting it charge multiple times: However, the eversor gets 4 bolt pistol shots at BS8 for overwatch. These hit an 2's and wound on 3's, making them fairly dangerous for the solitaire.

4) The solitaire has more attacks and a better WS, the eversor has better toughness and fleshbane.

Mathhammer time: (with both charging and non charging values, they inclue feel no pain, furious charge and any other special rules).

The solitaire on the charge with blitz, furious charge and caress deals 1.666 wounds to the eversor.
(With a harlequin's kiss he only manages 0.7 wounds on the charge, but has a 5.6% chance of causing instant death).
The solitaire in an ongoing combat: attacking with the caress deals 0.778 wounds.

The eversor causes 1.111 wounds on the charge.
In an ongoing combat he does 0.556 wounds.
So, either on the charge or in an ongoing combat the solitaire is ahead.

The eversor can however do overwatch, which will do 0.81 wounds on average, and will on average do 0.2777 wounds when he explodes upon death, making a draw possible. (I didn't calculate a normal charge from the solitaire, as I doubt most players would do so when you consider the overwatch damage, only a blitz charge would statistically be worth it).

All in all, I would say the solitaire is still slightly ahead, but not by much. Bad dice rolls could sway it either side imo. I am a little surprised actually, as before calculating I expected the solitaire to do much better.

In terms of the fluff, I believe the solitaire would have much better odds, however.

I think your maths is off...

Solitaire on the charge with Blitz has 12 attacks (10+1charging+12CCW)... hitting on 3's is 8 hits - 2 of which will be 6's and thus auto wound at AP2. The remaining hits (6), wound on 4+ thanks to FC which generate 3 more wounds. 5 Wounds vs the eversor 4+ dodge gives us 2.5 wounds...

I rolled off my Solitaire Vs Ghazzy, Abaddon, Draigo, HiveTyrant, Lysander, and Angron the Primarch. Only Abaddon and Angron defeated him. And only Angron by a landslide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If that counts for anything

This doesn't seem like a particularly apt match to me. The eversor is a psychotic mass murdering disposable assassin, fulfilling a very different role than the Solitaire serves.

 Massaen wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
We need some clarification on the rules here:

1) The harlequins kiss only gives 1 str 6 ap2 attack per turn, and only this 1 attack will cause instant death on a roll of a 6 to wound.

2) The solitaire could use the harlequins caress instead, this will cause an auto wounding ap2 hit on a hit roll of a 6.

3) The solitaire gets 10 attacks for 1 game turn if he uses a special ability to move in the movement phase, this means it must charge, it also has hit and run, letting it charge multiple times: However, the eversor gets 4 bolt pistol shots at BS8 for overwatch. These hit an 2's and wound on 3's, making them fairly dangerous for the solitaire.

4) The solitaire has more attacks and a better WS, the eversor has better toughness and fleshbane.

Mathhammer time: (with both charging and non charging values, they inclue feel no pain, furious charge and any other special rules).

The solitaire on the charge with blitz, furious charge and caress deals 1.666 wounds to the eversor.
(With a harlequin's kiss he only manages 0.7 wounds on the charge, but has a 5.6% chance of causing instant death).
The solitaire in an ongoing combat: attacking with the caress deals 0.778 wounds.

The eversor causes 1.111 wounds on the charge.
In an ongoing combat he does 0.556 wounds.
So, either on the charge or in an ongoing combat the solitaire is ahead.

The eversor can however do overwatch, which will do 0.81 wounds on average, and will on average do 0.2777 wounds when he explodes upon death, making a draw possible. (I didn't calculate a normal charge from the solitaire, as I doubt most players would do so when you consider the overwatch damage, only a blitz charge would statistically be worth it).

All in all, I would say the solitaire is still slightly ahead, but not by much. Bad dice rolls could sway it either side imo. I am a little surprised actually, as before calculating I expected the solitaire to do much better.

In terms of the fluff, I believe the solitaire would have much better odds, however.

I think your maths is off...

Solitaire on the charge with Blitz has 12 attacks (10+1charging+12CCW)... hitting on 3's is 8 hits - 2 of which will be 6's and thus auto wound at AP2. The remaining hits (6), wound on 4+ thanks to FC which generate 3 more wounds. 5 Wounds vs the eversor 4+ dodge gives us 2.5 wounds...

Correct, but you are missing the fact that the eversor has FNP.

FNP's effect on 2.5 wounds reduces them down to 1.666.

As I said, I included all the rules in my calculations...

Big blind bill, for the sake of those who feel the solitaire can use the caress but one attack is from the kiss. How does the fight turn out then?

If you play the Solitaire as being able to use the caress for all but 1 of the the normal attacks, and have 1 attack with the kiss, then:

On the charge with blitz: 1.713 wounds
Ongoing combat: 0.852

The 5.6% chance of causing instant death remains the same on both.
This would put the solitaire ahead a little bit more.

Well, to be honest, i'm starting to loose faith in 'fluff' battles when we have something like 1 man haulting a tyranid fleet or entering the eye of terror and winning vs daemons in there...
And people call Ward's fluff bad

Probably it's just me preferring something like an ork/ig-style big stupid mess with everyone dead in the end rather than action-movie style dodging bullets and killing quadrillion foes throwing jokes in the process.

Thanks for that! Was at work, and didn't have the option to sit and math

 koooaei wrote:
Well, to be honest, i'm starting to loose faith in 'fluff' battles when we have something like 1 man haulting a tyranid fleet or entering the eye of terror and winning vs daemons in there...
And people call Ward's fluff bad

Probably it's just me preferring something like an ork/ig-style big stupid mess with everyone dead in the end rather than action-movie style dodging bullets and killing quadrillion foes throwing jokes in the process.

I'm rather of the same opinion.

40k used to open with a description, and it had a great sentiment that seems to have been forgotten.

"to be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions...

but the universe is a big place, and, whatever happens, you will not be missed..."

 Vaktathi wrote:
40k used to open with a description, and it had a great sentiment that seems to have been forgotten.

But the Harlequins are old (I remember seeing their models well before 2nd edition came around). And they've always been the same hard-to-hit mass murderers.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Well, to be honest, i'm starting to loose faith in 'fluff' battles when we have something like 1 man haulting a tyranid fleet or entering the eye of terror and winning vs daemons in there...
And people call Ward's fluff bad

Probably it's just me preferring something like an ork/ig-style big stupid mess with everyone dead in the end rather than action-movie style dodging bullets and killing quadrillion foes throwing jokes in the process.

I'm rather of the same opinion.

40k used to open with a description, and it had a great sentiment that seems to have been forgotten.

"to be a man in such times is to be one among untold billions...

but the universe is a big place, and, whatever happens, you will not be missed..."

This is probably because you're missing the key word in that sentence.

When the hell did superspeed become part of the elf archetype?

Lazy writing is what it is.

Alcibiades wrote:
When the hell did superspeed become part of the elf archetype?

Lazy writing is what it is.

Eldar have always been very fast, superhuman fast compared to humans. Or they have at least for the 10 years I've been in the hobby, so it's not a new thing.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
When the hell did superspeed become part of the elf archetype?

Lazy writing is what it is.

Eldar have always been very fast, superhuman fast compared to humans. Or they have at least for the 10 years I've been in the hobby, so it's not a new thing.

Or it's been 10 years of lazy writing.

BTW, people often miss the degree of 'faster'. Striking first and reacting faster is fine. Dodging bullets and striking 10 times and moving away in a heartbeat is superhero garbage fluff. It takes away from the complexity of the narrative so much. The author stops thinking about how the character could use his wits and cunning but rather goes like: "he wins cause he's so awesum and can dodge bullets and stuff just because".

Superhuman concept is also fine but not to such degree.

 koooaei wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
When the hell did superspeed become part of the elf archetype?

Lazy writing is what it is.

Eldar have always been very fast, superhuman fast compared to humans. Or they have at least for the 10 years I've been in the hobby, so it's not a new thing.

Or it's been 10 years of lazy writing.

BTW, people often miss the degree of 'faster'. Striking first and reacting faster is fine. Dodging bullets and striking 10 times and moving away in a heartbeat is superhero garbage fluff. It takes away from the complexity of the narrative so much. The author stops thinking about how the character could use his wits and cunning but rather goes like: "he wins cause he's so awesum and can dodge bullets and stuff just because".

Superhuman concept is also fine but not to such degree.

Agreed on the faster part. I can see them dodging the odd bullet, but running like that guy in Xmen seems silly. Their superhuman speed is more their reaction speed as opposed to being like sonic the hedgehog.