Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi, so I've been planning for a good while to do a chaos collection that works for both 40k and fantasy.

I'm intending to achieve this through a combined list that mixes a majority of Beastmen and Daemon models with a sprinkling of others, with Gor cultists and a variety of conversion ideas done to minimise the number of units that can't count as something in one universe or the other. To narrow my sample area a little and not go too mad with purchases, I've narrowed the theme to primary Tzeentch, secondary Khorne.

But all of that is quite complicated, so I'm starting simpler: Building a roughly 1000 point mono-Tzeentch Daemons list that ideally can double as a fantasty Mono-Tzeentch Daemons list. Somewhat complicated by never having played Fantasy before. (And yes, I'm aware Mono-Tzeentch Daemons apparently isn't a very optimal fantasy list. I'm expanding later as I said.)

Thus far, all I have is a box of Flamers and a box of Screamers I picked up for a month long modified kill team tournament my local store is doing starting next week, so I'm wide open to suggestions where to go next. 30-40 Horror models is a given obviously.

Deamon prince with wings! They are beastly

Herald/s on disk because ML3 is great and the grimoure/glyph is pretty rad too.

Grab fateweaver as well, as he is a beast in 40k. This will let you run screamerstar in 40k with summoning backup.

300 - Fateweaver
150 - Herald, Disk, Lvl 3, Exalted Reward
99 - 11x Horrors
99 - 11x Horrors
150 - 6x Screamers

798

Add additional heralds, flamers or horrors to taste. A burning chariot or 2 wouldn't hurt either, nor would a soul grinder. As to the suitability of the above for fantasy, I couldn't say, but you've already identified that they're sub par, so at least it won't come as a shock.

 Drasius wrote:
Herald/s on disk because ML3 is great and the grimoure/glyph is pretty rad too.

Grab fateweaver as well, as he is a beast in 40k. This will let you run screamerstar in 40k with summoning backup.

300 - Fateweaver
150 - Herald, Disk, Lvl 3, Exalted Reward
99 - 11x Horrors
99 - 11x Horrors
150 - 6x Screamers

798

Add additional heralds, flamers or horrors to taste. A burning chariot or 2 wouldn't hurt either, nor would a soul grinder. As to the suitability of the above for fantasy, I couldn't say, but you've already identified that they're sub par, so at least it won't come as a shock.

Fateweaver is a crutch, (and a bad one at that), and Screamerstar will not earn you any friends because re-rollable 2++ saves are utterly stupid and make the game 0 fun...

You'll get far more millage out of a generic LoC running the Staff of Change (Lesser Gifts default option), +2x Greater Gifts for some protection, and Lv3 all rolled on Divination. Now you have a solidly mobile "augment machine" for supporting your army where it's needed, AND a close combat beatstick thanks to guaranteed Prescience combo'd with S8/ap2 attacks! (land Precognition, and you can quite literally make people cry - so be careful using this combo is purely 'friendly' games!)

9 strong Flamers squads still work admirably, providing you avoid the likes of multi-wound T4/5 and/or 2+ save units. Anything else will get turned into multi-coloured ash with that many templates.

Exalted Flamers make an excellent addition to a large unit of Horrors. They also make the Blasted Standard into a pretty nasty upgrade for hopefully stopping the first assault against that unit in its tracks. (D3/S5/ap3 auto-hits, followed up by 2D6/S4 auto-hits - ouchie!)
As for the Horror units these guys will typically hide in, don't automatically just blindly throw their roll into the Malefic tree... Tzheralds make much better us of Flickering Fire yes, but Horrors can make fine use of Bolt of Tzeentch, and can also now cast Infernal Gateway which is a great counter to 2+ saves, and can get a ridiculously high strength to boot for nuking multi-wound models.
Another really fun, (though not optimal), way to run a Horror unit, is to go for 18-20, and add in a Tzherald w/Greater Locus & Mutating Warpblade. Assaulty Pink Horroros!! Yes they're not exactly stellar at it, but they can act as a decent tarpit, and it's always a great laugh when they get that S6 for a round and can punch the lights out of a MC or vehicle! (plus the Warpblade Tzherald can have fun turning all those Sergeants & equivalents into Spawn.)

DP's without wings are viable if you bring in Icons to help Deep Strike them with 100% accuracy, provided the marks match-up. (ie: Icon of Tzeentch is only 100% accurate DS for other Daemons of Tzeentch units.) Non-matching marks however is still a very beneficial D6" scatter however.
Princes are also helpful as they can grab Telepathy in a Tzeentch army!

Soul Grinders in a mon-/heavy Tzeentch are actually able to make viable use of the otherwise horrible Warp Gaze upgrade! It's a great anti-tank shot, something the army really needs, and between Tzheralds and the LoC, you have plentiful access to spam Prescience to help mitigate the BS3. (and also that same purely average WS3 in combat too!)

Also, don't be afraid to convert stuff... Tzeentch is still missing 2 classic units, namely the Firewyrms, (MoT Chaos Spawn), and Changebringers (Flamers riding a Disc).
Firewyrms can either be done by allying some MoT Chaos Spawn from the CSM book, or else can be made into a "counts as" unit of Beasts of Nurgle.
Changebringers can be readily done by again, "counts as" Plaguedrones, and their shooting attack can be gotten by upgrading the unit to carry Death's Heads.
Both units can add another level of versatility to a mono/heavy Tzeentch army as well!



As for the Fantasy side of things... Just know that Khorne is even more abysmal right now than Tzeentch is, which is really saying something! Skull Cannons and the new Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster are about the only things Khorne is going to field in Fantasy.
Everything else is either unplayable, (*cough*bloodletters*cough*), or else it's role is done miles better by something else, such as Plaguedrones being about 1000x superior to Bloodcrushers as Monstrous Cav in every single respect, or Seekers/Furies/solo Beasts/Screamers doing the same job Hounds do, etc...

Yeah, Fateweaver can be a crutch, but I find that taking that LoC instead can really screw me over as mine rarely manages to achieve much, though I suspect that's a match up related issue. Fateweaver does provide a measure of reliability in an army otherwise lacking it. Belakor is probably a better option for 45 more points anyway, and doesn't exactly break theme.

As to grimoure/screamer star, well, it's hard not to get yourself a 2 or 3++ re-rolling 1's if you're taking tzeentch daemons, and you're almost certainly taking Tz heralds anyway, so it's not exactly a bad plan.

The 9 flamers I would sugest as being better in 3 squads of 3 as you're less suceptible to getting the squad wiped out and less likely to be stuck in reserves as DSing them is usually the optimum course of action.

As for the Assaulting pinkies, that's the second time I've heard that idea, and it's still as crazy as the 1st time I heard it. Rolling on Tzeentch isn't the crazy idea many think it is, though 1 or 2 rolling on maelific when you've got the models to support the occassional summon gives you some nice options. I've had some success rolling Tz powers against Tau, as doubling out broadsides is fun.

Princes without wings are only a viable (and I use that term very loosely) if you're running maelific heavy IMHO, because cursed earth lets you come down without scatter, but you've still got to survive a round of shooting before you can charge, and now you don't have any jink saves to fall back on.

Well, I'm slightly hesitant to buy a finecast Lord of Change right now since the Thirster came out... I might anyway, but it's not quite my first resort. There's some decent ideas in there though, absolutely.

I was under the impression Biomancy is pretty good on Princes?