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So I see a lot of people not taking Dreadnoughts due to price and little survivability. Do you think if Dreadnoughts could take an extra weapon or two for no or little price increase ala Cyclone Missile Launchers, people would use them more? I'm hesitant to give them more armor as most are AV13 already?

Nope, weapons are not the problem. It's purely the speed at which they die before they can do anything useful.

For vehicles in general, the move to Hull Points should have been accompanied by the addition of armour saves.

Yup. Too many can openers, very thin cans.

More weapons would only make the targets taste sweeter.
I'd say be sure to start the game with them in some kinda cover to help them a little bit.

Just make them cheaper in points so it's less of a loss when one gets destroyed.

 Vankraken wrote:
Just make them cheaper in points so it's less of a loss when one gets destroyed.

Could not disagree more. While this might make them playable, it only further violates the concept of the dreadnought.

These aren't supposed to be inexpensive walking gun platforms, they are supposed to be ancient heroes of the Chapter encased in nearly inviolable adamantium sarcophagi. They are supposed to be veterans of thousands of battles, not tin cans shipped to the front.



A good fix would require a comprehensive reworking of the system, but IMHO:

Hull Points should only be removed for Penetrating Hits, since damage to the Hull doesn't occur from a hit that glances off it.

Glancing hit should be able to strip minor weapons from a vehicle, or inconvenience it (shaken/stunned, etc.), but not destroy it....as they are glancing hits.

Vehicle damage chart needs to be reworked so that damage results which can instantly destroy a previously undamaged vehicle are rarer, and are somehow limited to weapons appropriate to the vehicle in question (for instance, a single bolter round might be able to blow up a trukk (and certainly not 1/6th of the time they hit), but instantly detonating a Rhino might require something like a missile launcher or better).

I don't have a system worked out, mind you, but I think just adding more weapons to them isn't the problem. If it goes Kablooey, it doesn't matter how many guns it had!

Its clearly the vehicle mechanic that is the problem. Just see how all the Monsterious Creatures fair in comparison.

Heck, you dont even need to make them MCs with all the buffs that go with it. Just T8 with a save and 4+ wounds would make them live long enough to actually do something.

There is absolutely nothing worse than an HTH dread that gets immobilized. Id rather see the thing one shot to death than just sitting there in the middle of the table unable to do anything.

I find that Dreadnoughts woth front AV13 tend to survive quite good. Like Ironclad dreads or contemptors. So simple AV adjustions can make them alot better. The ironclad should be AV14 at the front, lol. Or 13 13 11.

I've seen too many dreadnoughts killed in a single turn. Melta devastates them, lascannons glance on 3s, warp spiders destroy them in a single turn of shooting after warping behind them, MCs punch them into nothingness.... literally the only things they do decent against are a few elite infantry choices that will struggle against them in CC, but no one lets the dreadnought get into melee unless it's a tarpit of cheap units it'll never kill all game.They're just too soft at the moment.

Give them an invuln save, better AV, more attacks... or make them monstrous creatures, T 7 or 8, with a 2+ 5++. 4 wounds.

Av13 is enought.

I haven't been having a ton of trouble with mine. A venerable dread is accurate enough with a lascannon or multi-melta that I can usually put at least one good shot somewhere before they start to get into trouble. Ironclads are reasonably durable. One of the best uses I've found for dreads is to simply plow them into melee. Many things struggle to hurt them in melee while the dreads are actually quite good at hurting them in return. And if your opponent is bringing lots of firepower, a cheap dread in a cheap pod isn't a terrible distraction/tank hunter.

 Draco wrote:
Av13 is enought.

My furiosos disagree. Even on front av13, they are committing suicide as soon as they enter the battlefield. There's so much haywire, smash, gauss, and high str weapons that rock it out quick, and now there's about to be hilarious str D flamers and other str D shots from a heavy infantry unit. That hurts the presence of all vehicles, but walkers were already one foot in the grave.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Draco wrote:
Av13 is enought.

My furiosos disagree. Even on front av13, they are committing suicide as soon as they enter the battlefield. There's so much haywire, smash, gauss, and high str weapons that rock it out quick, and now there's about to be hilarious str D flamers and other str D shots from a heavy infantry unit. That hurts the presence of all vehicles, but walkers were already one foot in the grave.

As someone said before, Hull Points should have been accompanied by armor saves. Walkers will be broken until they get this.

To me, having a pathetic 2 attacks bases is one of the things that gets me. Usually with rolling, you only will be able to get 1 kill a turn.

You are telling me this great big metal machine can only bonk two guys on the head with its big sweeping attacks? Give them rampage or a "mini-stomp" attack.

Getting dogpiled by fearless minions or being hit by a goon with a hidden powerfist for a single 15 point chaos marine is just as frustrating as getting blasted at long range.

It also hurts that now just about everyone has krak grenades that now hit at normal weapon skill. So those veteran guardsmen who are S3 versus your marines suddenly became S6 when fighting your dreadnaught.

There are lots of problems with them.

I like the suggestion of having armour saves on vehicles.

I also agree with the issue of them only having 2 attacks.
Perhaps a mini 'stomp' like attack of sorts to represent the giant robot knocking people out the way would be in order. This way the dread is still balanced vs harder targets like vehicles and MCs.

 kingbobbito wrote:
.... literally the only things they do decent against are a few elite infantry choices that will struggle against them in CC,

Murderpack's been doing great for me. A single buff like 4++, Shrowded or invisibility and a squadron of 5 helbrutes becomes a true centerpie of the army. People who used to laugh at helbrutes suddenly can't deal with them reliably.

Solo helbrutes - not so much. So, my experience is squadron + durability buff and they're deadly.

Drop pod dreads are an effective delivery method. Twin flamers is enough to wipe out a mob of boyz and they can survive at least one turn of shooting at the low point games I play.

 Vankraken wrote:
Hull Points should only be removed for Penetrating Hits, since damage to the Hull doesn't occur from a hit that glances off it.

That is a really nice solution... and the Necron playerbase would feed my tear vials for centuries to come. Win-win.

Make them actually tactical. The benefit of a dread is it's meant to be an ancient strategist. I think it'd be cool to give them a slightly weaker but voluntary version of the Helbrute's crazy table.

Examples:

-Expose Cowardice: A dreadnought with an assault cannon may remain stationary to gain the Pinning special rule for the turn

-Emperor's Hellfire: A dreadnought with a missile launcher may fire it as Heavy 3 with either frag or Krak missiles once. The missile launcher may not be used afterwards

-Face the Foe: A dreadnought that ran in the shooting phase may change its facing once in the beginning of the enemy shooting phase.

-Patient Hunter: A dreadnought with a twin linked Lascannon nominates one enemy vehicle or monstrous creature as its target at the beginning of the game. Shooting attacks against that target gain Ignores Cover.

-Protect the Chapter: a dreadnought with a close combat weapon may roll to charge to join in any time an enemy unit charges an ally within 12".

-Target Locked: A dreadnought with a twin linked auto cannon firing at the same target as the previous round gains shred and tank hunter on his auto cannon attacks.

I think they need their main weapon upgraded. It should be something like a battle cannon or demolisher cannon at their current cost. Their armor is fine though their rear armor should be 12 as well and ad another hull point.

Or they can just get rid of them. Because they are bad and will likely always be worse than MCs at this rate.

Martel732 wrote:
Or they can just get rid of them. Because they are bad and will likely always be worse than MCs at this rate.

So is there any Marine unit you think is any good?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Or they can just get rid of them. Because they are bad and will likely always be worse than MCs at this rate.

So is there any Marine unit you think is any good?

Smashbane, grav bikes, grav cents, Sternguard, drop pods, Sicarans, a couple other Forge World units I can't name right now. 66%-75% of marine units are unfieldable crap. 80%+ in the BA and DA codices.

Are these changes you guys want for all vehicles, or just walkers in particular?

Transports don't need these changes imo as they shouldn't be something that's alive all game and acting as a taxi for a unit. They should get in deliver their cargo if they can, and be gone by turn 3 at the latest.

I'd be fine with Walkers getting some kind of save (or perhaps only a save so long as they still have hull points) or simply making it so hull points regenerate 1 per turn (with some way to modify this count. Perhaps +1 for each tech priest kind of thing). But not for all vehicles.

 koooaei wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
.... literally the only things they do decent against are a few elite infantry choices that will struggle against them in CC,

Murderpack's been doing great for me. A single buff like 4++, Shrowded or invisibility and a squadron of 5 helbrutes becomes a true centerpie of the army. People who used to laugh at helbrutes suddenly can't deal with them reliably.

Solo helbrutes - not so much. So, my experience is squadron + durability buff and they're deadly.

And if your not able to get said buff, considering that all those would be better spent on better units, like say a Flesh Hound unit.

AV13 would help, and would be the easiest change. Walkers would also benefit a lot from having Smash (and I don't really understand why they don't).

But really the issue is that MC's are just superior to walkers in every way - they get armor saves, they get free AP2 in close combat, they don't have armor pen tables (and so can't get randomly blown up or immobilized). Oh, and a lot of them have jump, jetpack, or flying. The old-school walkers (Dreads, Defilers) just can't compete with that.

Our local players have okay luck with Ironclads and the SW Shield Dreads. Both have very focused weapon loadouts, a way to survive the shooting phase, and a delivery mechanism (drop pod). And I've become more of a fan of Maulerfiends, who can exploit their mobility to get into close combat (where AV12 will keep them alive pretty well). But regular dreads? Defilers? They just get shot off the board before they can accomplish much of anything.

 techsoldaten wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 Draco wrote:
Av13 is enought.

My furiosos disagree. Even on front av13, they are committing suicide as soon as they enter the battlefield. There's so much haywire, smash, gauss, and high str weapons that rock it out quick, and now there's about to be hilarious str D flamers and other str D shots from a heavy infantry unit. That hurts the presence of all vehicles, but walkers were already one foot in the grave.

As someone said before, Hull Points should have been accompanied by armor saves. Walkers will be broken until they get this.

That or 5++ Invulnerable saves like the Contemptors. It would help a little.

Or give up the goat and make all walkers monstrous creatures.

I run an ironclad in drop pod and it tends to wreck at least 2 units before dying. if you run your dreadnoughts with a support unit to act as a intervening model save they do just fine. av 12 is good for the dreadnought, av 13 if you take the ironclad. its a good unit if used correctly.

the_scotsman wrote:
Make them actually tactical. The benefit of a dread is it's meant to be an ancient strategist. I think it'd be cool to give them a slightly weaker but voluntary version of the Helbrute's crazy table.

Examples:

-Expose Cowardice: A dreadnought with an assault cannon may remain stationary to gain the Pinning special rule for the turn

-Emperor's Hellfire: A dreadnought with a missile launcher may fire it as Heavy 3 with either frag or Krak missiles once. The missile launcher may not be used afterwards

-Face the Foe: A dreadnought that ran in the shooting phase may change its facing once in the beginning of the enemy shooting phase.

-Patient Hunter: A dreadnought with a twin linked Lascannon nominates one enemy vehicle or monstrous creature as its target at the beginning of the game. Shooting attacks against that target gain Ignores Cover.

-Protect the Chapter: a dreadnought with a close combat weapon may roll to charge to join in any time an enemy unit charges an ally within 12".

-Target Locked: A dreadnought with a twin linked auto cannon firing at the same target as the previous round gains shred and tank hunter on his auto cannon attacks.

It's funny how some of these suggestions are a lot more unique and interesting than anything GW manages to add to their codex.
It's like GW mainly only knows how to change stat numbers. "So what's unique about this weapon?" "Well, it has AP4 instead of AP5 like bolters! Eh? eh? eh?"

The one thing we did was allow Dreads to benefit from Chapter Tactics.
This helps a lot and for the Smurfs must decide right after determining Warlord Traits if they count as TACs, ASM or Devs. We are not sure how that works, no one plays Smurfs.