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Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

Ok, so I'm not being funny or anything, this is a genuine question, but why are there no black people in the 41st Millennium? I never see any models painted in darker shades, most are a pale white, with some a healthy pink at best.

Have I missed a memo or something?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/02 17:09:31


 
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




Gw don't paint many miniatures with varying skin tone. In the same way they have very few women. The Salamanders are all black and the White Scars are Mongolian, but even here you see that different races are segregated. The imperial guard, where you would expect the greatest human diversity, also sees minis painted exclusively white.

Personally my human models are painted a mix of different races, as I find monochrome human groups weird and off putting, I've seen plenty of private collections painted as different races too. Much as I've seen many private collections with more women. GW as a company, though, seems to have a bit of a racism and sexism problem.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

There are a few black characters, Vulkan being the obvious one. Without going too PC or anything like that, I guess it's beause GW's main market is Europe and N. America, both of which are white-majority. However, there's also the fact that depending on which army you collect, most of them barely show any flesh anyway, you wouldn't be able to tell a black Marine from a white Marine if they're both in full armour.

That being said, there's obviously nothing stopping you from having a fully black army.
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

Drager wrote:
GW as a company, though, seems to have a bit of a racism and sexism problem.


Kind of odd in this day and age isn't it.. Anyway, I've plans to have a variety when I start painting my fleshier models.

 
   
Made in gb
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader






This is something I've thought about in relation to TV writers etc, and applies here. I reckon there are more white models, as people tend to lump imaginary people in with themselves, unless it is expressly stated otherwise. For example when people say 'a person did X' women imagine them to be women, and men imagine them as men. In a white male dominated studio, white male models are going to be more prevalent than others
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight





Raleigh, NC

GW just builds and offers what it is made up of: middle-age white guys. If you ask why units aren't painted as African American/black/any racial background other than white, they'll just say "hey, paint them however you want!" It's a pretty normal thing with game companies, especially the traditional ones. And GW is about as traditional as you get!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 statu wrote:
This is something I've thought about in relation to TV writers etc, and applies here. I reckon there are more white models, as people tend to lump imaginary people in with themselves, unless it is expressly stated otherwise. For example when people say 'a person did X' women imagine them to be women, and men imagine them as men. In a white male dominated studio, white male models are going to be more prevalent than others


Exactly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/02 17:32:11


 
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




The company has very low internal diversity in staff and a poor to non existent handle on the idea that this is even relevant. Many (although far from all) GW staff will tend to wave it off and point out the Salamanders and White scars, without realising that segregation is also racist. They will also point to the Sisters and Eldar, without taking into account the concept that sexualisation through the use of innapropiate armour designs (Sisters/Banshees/etc) is also sexist, paritcularly combined with all women being very chesty.

Oddly the BDSM space elves of the Dark Eldar are among the least sexist miniatures with their fetish glad warriors being an equal opportunity bunch and the current iteration of the Incubi having gotten rid of the boobplate (you can't tell whether a given Incubi is male or female by any metric anymore, unless a female head is used.) Additionally, whilst some areas of the army still have large breasts sculpted onto the models, this makes sense in the context of someone wearing skintight mesh as opposed to 'proper' armour.

They don't have any line I can point to where they managed to do racial diversity even half as well.
   
Made in lu
Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought






Aren't the salamanders/vulkan not even black? They always seemed to be Caucasian to me, only with black skin, like literally black.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drager wrote:
The company has very low internal diversity in staff and a poor to non existent handle on the idea that this is even relevant. Many (although far from all) GW staff will tend to wave it off and point out the Salamanders and White scars, without realising that segregation is also racist. They will also point to the Sisters and Eldar, without taking into account the concept that sexualisation through the use of innapropiate armour designs (Sisters/Banshees/etc) is also sexist, paritcularly combined with all women being very chesty.

Oddly the BDSM space elves of the Dark Eldar are among the least sexist miniatures with their fetish glad warriors being an equal opportunity bunch and the current iteration of the Incubi having gotten rid of the boobplate (you can't tell whether a given Incubi is male or female by any metric anymore, unless a female head is used.) Additionally, whilst some areas of the army still have large breasts sculpted onto the models, this makes sense in the context of someone wearing skintight mesh as opposed to 'proper' armour.

They don't have any line I can point to where they managed to do racial diversity even half as well.


To be fair, sisters and eldar are among the least sexist armourmodels out there. Apart from boob plates (which I happen to like, otherwise I might as well play templar) there isn't really anything sexist about them. They are fully armoured after all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/02 18:00:19


 
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

Yeah, Salamanders are mutant-black, not African-black.

I think you could paint your minis black and they'd look alright.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





I don't remember GW having answered a question like this in a publication or at a Games Day. It is a good question though. Just let me show something that at least in my case helped a bit with this topic. The following pictures are from White Dwarf 123 and show Space Marine Salamanders for 1st Edition 40k painted by GW's 'eavy Metal team:





You can - even in the printed original - hardly make out much of the detail of the faces. The contrast, even in case of otherwise colored armours, doesn't work well if at all. Painting faces like this, and I don't think there is anything else about it, did just not work out well back in the days. Especially if photographed it was not really good to show the miniatures' details.

Here is another example from Codex: Armageddon (3rd Edition Supplement)



Compare it with the Sergeant with 'white skin'



That's my understanding of why this wasn't done much. The first images are from 1990 and clearly show they had invented other skin tones for Marines but did not use them much afterwards. The Armageddon pics are from 2000.

There were lots of articles in White Dwarf were they talked about why they use strongly contrasting colours for their work in this and that case. Mike McVey is one of those I remember choosing colours with this in mind.



This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/02 18:33:18


 
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight





Raleigh, NC

I've seen it a lot with Catachans, but I think that has more to do with stereotypes (i.e. the whole army is the cast of Predator than interest in diversity.
   
Made in us
Deacon




Eugene, OR

I would think of it as less segregation, and more like the 40,000 years of breeding. If we as a planet sent out a colonizing group to another planet, and didn't mix much with them, then standard everyday breeding would slowly blend things together to the point where any given planet ends up as one type. It's not something that can be shown IRL, mainly because we haven't had the mixing of races until fairly recently, and we haven't been around very long. Give us another few millennium, and we'll probably be looking pretty much the same on good ol' earth too. Hell, take 2 wildly different people, and use your punnet squares to mix them, then do it for even 10 generations of inter mixing using average available populations statndards for your area, things will come together.

TLDR: genetic mixing over time results in sameness

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/02 18:50:43


2k
3300


 
   
Made in cz
Mysterious Techpriest






Fortress world of Ostrakan

Why is almost everyone obssesed with "diversity"... Does it really matter?


Neutran Panzergrenadiers, Ostrakan Skitarii Legions, Order of the Silver Hand
My fan-lore: Europan Planetary federation. Hot topic: Help with Minotaurs chapter Killteam






 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




There his a video on youtube on how to paint black or asian people on GW channel. It's rather easy and effective. You can play with washes if you want to have very black people like Congolese or lighter black like afro-american. Personnaly, I am starting to wonder if one day we will have a Space Marine with a descent air-cut. But, that's another debate.

@Hawky

If you think almost everyone is obsessed with diversity (racial, sexual, cultural or otherwise), don't you think you answered your own question? Yes, it does matter to a lot of people that their favorite hobby match their core values and the world in which they live. Some will be rather millitant, other much less, but it is important to a significant portion of the gamming community and I don't see anything wrong with it. It can seem a little bit to political at times, but such his life in the democratic world. Anything can become very political.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/02 19:02:13


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I can't speak for others but I try and keep my guard units diverse, but even still, 90% of them are white. My reason, I have to go extra work/painting to make non-white soldiers as I paint each squad in a batch. If they aren't all the same skin color then it's extra painting for me. That and anything other then white, I'm just not to sure how to paint right. The examples just look artificial or not right to me. Another reason is probably because I'm white myself, so I just default to that. I'm not trying to be racist in my painting (wow, that just sounds horrible to say). Definitely going to check out that video that epronovost posted about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/02 19:05:19


 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter




Seattle

 Hawky wrote:
Why is almost everyone obssesed with "diversity"... Does it really matter?


Yes.

It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised. 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

I got exactly 3 guys with skin, I am not about to buy extra pots just for that.

Edit: Make it 8 with the 5 new stormtroopers, point still stands, I might have some browns I could use, but if I don't, I am spending money for 2-3 face, and anyone calling me racist because of it can stuff it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/02 19:11:37


Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
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Savageconvoy wrote:
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Made in fr
Storm Trooper with Maglight





France, Southwest Side

I agree with what has been said previously. But IMO, the real thing to point at in GW's range is that there are no genuine black/chinese/arabic guys heads. Same thing for girls, who are supposed to fight in the IG just like men.

The exception of Salamanders is just not one; their faces are actually caucasians, but their skin is ash-black. Nothing to do with African people.

As it was stated, GW studio is as it is and there is no real demand for diversty among the main cohort of customers, i.e. 10-15 yo white upper/middle class guys. Why GW would bother as they just have to say "paint it as you want" to avoid criticism?

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Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




 dpal666 wrote:
I would think of it as less segregation, and more like the 40,000 years of breeding. If we as a planet sent out a colonizing group to another planet, and didn't mix much with them, then standard everyday breeding would slowly blend things together to the point where any given planet ends up as one type. It's not something that can be shown IRL, mainly because we haven't had the mixing of races until fairly recently, and we haven't been around very long. Give us another few millennium, and we'll probably be looking pretty much the same on good ol' earth too. Hell, take 2 wildly different people, and use your punnet squares to mix them, then do it for even 10 generations of inter mixing using average available populations statndards for your area, things will come together.

TLDR: genetic mixing over time results in sameness


Your understanding of genetics is a little off. For starters 40,000 years is a much shorter time period than that which modern humans have existed for. Additionally we have all developed from an initially fairly homogenous small population, with variations building over time. If we look at the way the worlds of the imperium formed and their relative technology levels I would, as a biologist, suggest it would be more likely that we would see increased rather than decreased variation. This would be particularly true on an interplanetary scale, but would be likely even on the scale of individual planets, provided diverse populations were the original settlers (a reasonable assumption I hope). Even with a small, homogenous group of settlers it would not be surpirsing over the time scales involved to find large degrees of variation have developed on many of the planets, although these variations would be different to the ones we currently see.

TLDR: A sufficiently large population with multiple survival and selection pressures doesn't work that way
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






Because very few people paint them that way because they don't want to as simple an answer as it is. The fact you care is bit fecked up you don't see pink orks where is the equality in that lmao. No women imperial guard squats have also not been added.

Let's face it gw gave you all the equality they can by telling you to paint them any which way you want. Equality is when people are treated equally without notice of colour sex or creed not when people see only white people and claim its wrong because there is no black people or if its all Asian people and there is no white people and so on be like me colour blind. I see people most dumb as feck. No such thing as raciest we all belong to one race the human race any thing else is pointless.

As for complaining about women models with large breasts or such like where is the complaints about the guys with all muscles or the guys that are all meant to be 6-7 foot it can go on and on accept the game for what it is a game which you can personally convert paint to look like anything you want and stop the guff its all a political nightmare people are people end of story and sod anyone who thinks them selves belonging to a sub group just because of something stupid as skin colour.

If you want to think about all the races in the book are xenophobic true raciest or religious nut jobs you don't like it don't play the game

Small unimportant rant over
   
Made in gb
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine




UK

 RazgrizOne wrote:

As it was stated, GW studio is as it is and there is no real demand for diversty among the main cohort of customers, i.e. 10-15 yo white upper/middle class guys. Why GW would bother as they just have to say "paint it as you want" to avoid criticism?


Perhaps to attract people from outside that demograph and expaned their customer base?

Either way, I wasn't trying to start any kind of great political debate, I was just curious as I'm thinking of painting a couple of models different colours is all.

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Well, the reason all the guard are white is because there are literally like two cadian face sculpts. I actually just recently painted Colonel Schafer's Last Chancers box (which was absolutely awesome) and it came with 2 girls (1 chinese), 1 native american, and 1 black guy. Of course, one of the girls had special-issue flak miniskirt and Imperial Guard Carapace Tank Top, but you get what you can get I guess.

I suppose the real reason is it's a british company? So their models are predominantly...sort of british? Toodle Pip Cheerio White Guys and every woman is there at least partially for sex appeal and other races don't exist.

Honestly, that's pretty standard in industries like this one. Products aimed at "nerds" almost always follow that same sort of style. I mean, count the white male video game protagonists.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in fr
Storm Trooper with Maglight





France, Southwest Side

Either way, I wasn't trying to start any kind of great political debate, I was just curious as I'm thinking of painting a couple of models different colours is all.


Yes sure. But generally, gender/race topics are most likely to trigger burning debates, even if it is done casually, just like now.

Regarding audience and marketing, I really don't know, to be honest. Why are most of GW customers white? Would girls be attracted to the hobby if they would be more targeted ? I know most of actual players don't care but I would be curious to read a sociology of the Hobby.

- 22nd Rhayé Storm Division : 2000points (Spetsnaz-themed IG)

- Ordo Xenos : ~700pts

Borth armies here : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/646687.page

Visit the Community's Imperial Guard & PDF Database, share your knowledge on the Imperium greatest defenders and contribute with your own regiment : http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/690527.page
 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





theres this funny Black Legion parody video on youtube where black legion members are all black (at least speak in ebonics) I think the video was made by Bruva Alfabusa but for the life of me I cant find it anymore.

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 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Sir Arun wrote:
theres this funny Black Legion parody video on youtube where black legion members are all black (at least speak in ebonics) I think the video was made by Bruva Alfabusa but for the life of me I cant find it anymore.


Pretty sure that's miniwargaming.

I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





10penceman wrote:
Because very few people paint them that way because they don't want to as simple an answer as it is. The fact you care is bit fecked up you don't see pink orks where is the equality in that lmao. No women imperial guard squats have also not been added.

Let's face it gw gave you all the equality they can by telling you to paint them any which way you want. Equality is when people are treated equally without notice of colour sex or creed not when people see only white people and claim its wrong because there is no black people or if its all Asian people and there is no white people and so on be like me colour blind. I see people most dumb as feck. No such thing as raciest we all belong to one race the human race any thing else is pointless.

As for complaining about women models with large breasts or such like where is the complaints about the guys with all muscles or the guys that are all meant to be 6-7 foot it can go on and on accept the game for what it is a game which you can personally convert paint to look like anything you want and stop the guff its all a political nightmare people are people end of story and sod anyone who thinks them selves belonging to a sub group just because of something stupid as skin colour.

If you want to think about all the races in the book are xenophobic true raciest or religious nut jobs you don't like it don't play the game

Small unimportant rant over


I'd just like to break this down a bit.

"you don't see pink orks where is the equality in that lmao" - The overrepresentation of green people in the ork community is not a problem, because (and I can't stress this enough) there are no green people.

"No women imperial guard squats have also not been added. " - quite a few gamers complain about the lack of female imperial guard, and there are several third party companies which do very well out of the fact. I can only imagine that no-one complains about the lack of female squats because of the lack of squats in general.

"Let's face it gw gave you all the equality they can by telling you to paint them any which way you want". Except that people's faces are different shapes, and all of the human faces that GW models are caucasian in shape - often in an exaggerated fashion. They also chose to set an example in the 'eavy metal team by painting nearly all of their models white.

" Equality is when people are treated equally without notice of colour sex or creed not when people see only white people and claim its wrong because there is no black people " - surely equality is what people are represented in the media proportionally. We cannot make all of our characters white and then complain when people think that there is something dodgy with that (because there is something dodgy with it).

"As for complaining about women models with large breasts or such like where is the complaints about the guys with all muscles" - in a wargame, large muscles are useful. They make the character look strong, intimidating. Occasionally, they are over-emphasised i.e. catachans, marauders. Large breasts are completely useless in war. I would far rather see a female model with over-emphasised musculature. It would be refreshing.

"sod anyone who thinks them selves belonging to a sub group just because of something stupid as skin colour." - except that society constantly treats people as being different because of their skin colour; when people of ethnic minorities constantly get a raw deal in our society, I think that it is incredibly hypocritical to then say that they should not identify with others of their minority as a mark of solidarity.

I'll let you google why 'colourblindness' is a useless ideology in a racially biased society for yourself.

Why must I always choose beween certain death and probable death. 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





Nottinghamshire, UK

Unfortunately I can only remember black characters in WH40K in the novels. I don't think I've ever seen a black Space Marine apart from Jonah Orion in Dawn of War (I definitely don't count the Salamanders, I mean "black" as in having the same skin tones as real black people). You never see any black Eldar either, despite their human-like appearance (Forge Fathers in Deadzone are the only example that comes to mind of different ethnicities being shown in a "dwarf" or "elf" species...no, wait, I think there was a Squat model who was black in the 2nd edition rulebook).

I'd like to see more examples of and painting guides for all types of skin tones in army books, etc, and by "more" I really mean "any." The Imperium is evil, but it's at least supposed to be about the whole of humanity banding together.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/02 22:07:23


Driven away from WH40K by rules bloat and the expense of keeping up, now interested in smaller model count games and anything with nifty mechanics. 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






What I don't get is how people can say "No, GW is absolutely not racist and sexist!" When they clearly and obviously are. It's not like they're sitting around going "how can we screw minorities today, heh heh heh..." But it's the standard "bunch of white men sitting around designing all the characters"

Which means by default, all the characters will be white men, and if they are women/a different race, that fact will be a major chunk of their character.

There are... Let's see, three female named characters in 40k currently with rules (Lelith Hesperax, Saint Celestine, And the banshee Pheonix lord, Jaim Zar?). I can think of one non-white named character, and it's the guy in the guard codex with the fu Manchu mustache and the "Look at me I'm ASIAN" hat.

You can argue that you can paint them however you like and GW never "intended" them all to be white, but look through their catalog, and look at the characters they've created. One or two kits that come with optional bodies with breasts on them (I laughed particularly hard at the new harlequins where they carefully included enough parts in all the kits to make all your harlequins male if the breast torsos were too scary) does not make them not as a company "white male by default".

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





I tend to think it's just because white skin contrasts more than black skin and is easier to paint to a good standard (at least I find it is, others may not).


Anyway, I tend to feel complaining about equality in sex/race at the end product is the wrong way to go about it. We should be focusing on why there aren't more black/asian/female/whatever in game/miniature design studios, not worrying about why there aren't more black/asian/female models.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/03 13:17:26


 
   
Made in us
Angry Blood Angel Assault marine





TEXAS

The fact that this basic question sparks as much debate and touchy feely feels is exactly why GW's position of "paint them how you want" is probably the best answer they can give.

If they go out of their way to add in diversity to armies they created back in the 70's, with peoples current feelings in mind, then they risk looking like they're admitting to having been obtuse or even changing their own ways for others when they may not have necessarily done anything wrong or malicious in the first place, ie: looking like apologists.

On the other hand specifically deciding "not to" change anything and leaving levels of segregation in their games, or just setting things up for the majority playerbase as they see it (white males), would then risk them looking like they either have a racial bias or at least aren't keeping up to date with modern social thought and pressures.

By choosing to "not" address the issue at all and say "Look guys, we provide the playground, play in it as you wish" they essentially walk away from the ensuing argument with as much dignity as they can muster. Personally I feel like this is actually the best coarse of action they could take. They aren't attempting to offend anyone or appear racist or apologetic either. They're just making a game and trying to make a profit.

ALL HAIL THE ORKISSIAH, TRINARY SPEAKING GOD OF ORK TECHNOLOGY. (Unlike wimpy old Binary, Orks have commands for Yes, No AND "Maybe")

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