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I was looking through the army lists and I don't see these guys included. Why is that? I am a total noob, but they look really good on paper.

Mat5 and Rat5 sucks. They also have victim levels of defense.

Thats not to say they can't be used, they are a good unit and they have been to great effect to win national tournaments, but they're definitely a "hard mode" choice. Not for newbies.

The list which won at a high level was under pVlad, who can sort of fix their bad mat and rat with Signs and Portents, but they still struggle to hit stuff reliably. On top of their ranged attacks being only average for damage, and their melee damage being decidedly below average.

Their immunities are their main strength. If you face a lot of Protectorate or Cryx Bile Thralls they might be a good choice, but I would still go for Winter Guard or IFP before AKs.

Mat6 actually... Regarding victim stats - ever have them shoot their mates in the back with gas grenades? Effective def14 and mat8. Add in iron flesh and tough along with shield wall and calling them victim stats is being intellectually dishonest. Similarly, immunity to corrosion and fire is quite useful in specific match ups. Complaining about gun power - they're pow10s. Pretty standard stuff to be fair. Won't argue - cra would fix a lot of their issues.regarfiess, they're still Effective against most infantry.

They're not bad - just situational. I've run them to good effect and find them on the whole to be quietly effective, if under used and under appreciated. They get work done, though they struggle against armour. Iron fang kovnik helps tremendously. Assault and battery is solid. Flamethrowers are very versatile too.

If they were 4/7 they'd be amazing. Right now, they're just a ua short of being a 'go-to' choice.

Yeah, if they had a UA granting them prey, they'd be pretty amazing.

I don't like them because the models are ugly, same reason I don't use Kayazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for shooting their buddies in the back, it would be pretty hard to do as well as using assault and battery, because they need to shoot before they move. If they had assaulT it would be more viable.

Deadnight wrote:
Mat6 actually... Regarding victim stats - ever have them shoot their mates in the back with gas grenades? Effective def14 and mat8.

Gas grenades are NOT cloud effects and do not grant concealment.

 oomiestompa wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Mat6 actually... Regarding victim stats - ever have them shoot their mates in the back with gas grenades? Effective def14 and mat8.

Gas grenades are NOT cloud effects and do not grant concealment.

He's referring to melee. Said gas could granting -2 to attack rolls (so effectively +2 DEF) and -2 to their DEF(so effectively +2 MAT).

 oomiestompa wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Mat6 actually... Regarding victim stats - ever have them shoot their mates in the back with gas grenades? Effective def14 and mat8.

Gas grenades are NOT cloud effects and do not grant concealment.

Never said they were a, or did b....

But they do confer a def penalty as well as a mat penalty. And ak's are immune to said gas. You should read the rules on the card, rather than assuming I mean concealment or clouds. I'd have specified either if they were what happened. Nasty wee trick!

Even funnier is throwing the flamethrower guy at something. For the motherland of course. He understands his sacrifice. 5' aoe of Fire thank you very much. Take that Caine! Or shooting through his own buddies with the flamethrower, using them as ablative shields, with the fire immunity thing they've got. Situational tricks for sure. But damn they're fun!

Deadnight wrote:

 oomiestompa wrote:

Deadnight wrote:
Mat6 actually... Regarding victim stats - ever have them shoot their mates in the back with gas grenades? Effective def14 and mat8.

Gas grenades are NOT cloud effects and do not grant concealment.

Never said they were a, or did b....

But they do confer a def penalty as well as a mat penalty. And ak's are immune to said gas. You should read the rules on the card, rather than assuming I mean concealment or clouds. I'd have specified either if they were what happened. Nasty wee trick!

I'm just letting you know you don't get that DEF 14 against ranged and magic attacks.

Edit: Maybe you don't need to know this, but someone else reading this thread might need that made clear.