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2015/05/11 10:16:38
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine
UK.
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I was curious if anyone else had ever written to Games Workshop to complain about their pricing.
I've written before, and received a reply. They wen't into detail describing how they have to cover R&D etc.
I'm writing again.
I'm a lot older now (40), and will be sending a letter to the GW Chairman, Tom Kirby. I love the hobby, I just wish the prices matched the consumers' reach.
It's a two-page letter.
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You'll never see me coming.
Follow me on Twitter: @DavidPMcDougall
2,000 points
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2015/05/11 10:26:37
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
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Open letter? post it here too?
I guess this kind of approach wont have huge impact, but may chip away a little bit.
I think they mostly look at sales figures, rather than opinion. I think the strongest argument is that high prices deter new entrants to the hobby.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/11 10:27:02
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2015/05/11 10:37:48
Subject: Re:Writing to Games Workshop
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Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine
UK.
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Will do. I'll also post the response.
Has anyone else written to GW? I've seen quite a few posts here commenting on their pricing/policy, etc. If we want change it may be the best option.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/11 11:18:07
You'll never see me coming.
Follow me on Twitter: @DavidPMcDougall
2,000 points
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2015/05/11 11:28:36
Subject: Re:Writing to Games Workshop
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Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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I emailed investor relations with a bit of a rant. I don't even remember what had gotten me annoyed, but they did reply and to my surprise it wasn't awful.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/618953.page
EDIT: I should add that they showed little to no intention of taking my POV on board
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/11 11:29:40
"If you don't have Funzo, you're nothin'!"
"I'm cancelling you out of shame, like my subscription to white dwarf"
Never use a long word where a short one will do. |
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2015/05/11 11:30:15
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor
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I thought Kirby had been replaced?
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2015/05/11 11:33:19
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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Just a little info which may help to inform your letter, in light of the response you got before..
GW have always listed their 'cost of sales' in their reports, and in the last few this figure has included all research and development, on top of the cost of raw materials, packaging etc etc.
This figure has averaged in the low twenties % in the time they've done this. Therefore the cost of producing their stuff has been slightly over 1/5 of the final RRP before tax. This makes a mockery of the "our prices are high because we spend so much money making new things" excuse, using their own declared figures as evidence.
The real reason that they need to charge such high prices are all the things that aren't related to miniature production (chiefly their stores.)
Might help you pre-empt the usual BS excuses. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Only in one of his two roles. He is no longer CEO, but he is still chairman. Crucially the person selected to replace him as CEO is one of the old guard that was formally CFO and has worked alongside Kirby for years, hence is unlikely to be looking to implement radical changes.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/11 11:35:00
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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2015/05/11 12:25:55
Subject: Re:Writing to Games Workshop
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Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine
UK.
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Here's my letter. I've yet to post it, so feedback is appreciated.
Dear Tom Kirby:
I’m a long-time (forty-year-old) fan of Games Workshop produced table-top gaming, particularly Warhammer 40k. I have had hours of fun engaged in a fictional war set in a far flung future of enigmatic circumstances, varied technology, and deep, engaging fiction. But for a number of years, while serving in the military, I was absent from the hobby.
More recently, though, I have managed to rededicate some time to Warhammer 40K, and introduce my ten-year-old son to the hobby, which isn’t an entirely easy thing to do considering he has dyslexia and dyspraxia. But he does enjoy visiting the stores, playing the table-top games and watching others do the same.
I’m a big advocate for community engagement. I currently work in social media, where it’s essential for growth and social inclusion. I’m also a big video gaming fan, primarily Halo. And the level of community engagement involved is quite impressive. It’s also utilised for feedback, working out what elements are successful and what isn’t so successful. The developers even go so far as engaging directly with the community in order to nail specific areas of concern. And this has led to various improvements and developments within the video gaming industry.
In short, what I’m suggesting is to listen carefully to customer feedback, and engage with the community at every possible level.
As previously mentioned, I work in social media, and was surprised to see that the Games Workshop twitter account (@VoxCaster) hasn’t issued a tweet since 2013. Additionally, I’ve noticed several stores in the south of England are not open every day, and feature a single staff member. I also discovered that financially the brand has not been doing as well in recent months as it has over the past few years.
It’s understandable that GW has suffered as a result of the economic climate, internal growth, and expansion throughout the UK and in some cases overseas, but I believe reinvesting in the community as a whole would be hugely beneficially. Promoting interaction, community competitiveness, and encouraging community feedback.
Additionally, there are opportunities for GW to promote the educational benefits of the hobby, as playing requires a basic level of numeracy and literacy. My son, for example, who suffers from dyslexia and dyspraxia, may benefit from using larger text templates or a sheet of filtered transparent plastic, which dyslexia sufferers often utilise in schools and at home.
Lastly, there’s the contentious matter of pricing. I know some fans of GW find this to be their biggest gripe with an otherwise entertaining and rewarding hobby. External forums are awash with complaints regarding the prices displayed in-store. When I first started the hobby, boxed sets and individual blister packs were – as one would expect – far cheaper. However, GW now provides cheaper-to-produce plastic kits, benefits from digital releases, and has grown considerably since I first started playing.
And yet the prices have increased. Even for a full-time employed individual such as myself, the prices are somewhat eye-opening.
When previously visiting stores I always witnessed an overwhelmingly youthful customer-base, typically young teenagers or older children (8-15). But as I’ve got back into the hobby I’ve noticed a flip in the age range of those usually in-store (either shopping or playing). That customer base is now older, and apparently less numerous.
Speaking from experience, cheaper products allow a younger customer-base to purchase kits that they would otherwise be unable to afford, or by purchasing armies stage by stage, gradually building up. The older customer, though more able to afford various products, is generally unable to invest as much time and will have aspects that present greater priority over purchasing GW products on a regular basis.
I realise the primary aim of GW, and any business for that matter, is profit. Without it, businesses fail. But reinvesting in what I saw as the primary demographic (8-15) will prove invaluable. Kids and young teenagers can spare their time for the hobby in ways that most adults cannot. And they can also encourage their parents to invest on their behalf.
I’ll leave you with an example. When I recently started with my son, buying a basic Space Marine Tactical squad was £25. Then there’s paint, glue, brushes, and flock to consider – just to start. A few years ago, when the younger demographic was more prevalent, the Tactical Squad was £12. I could start the hobby, with the painting and assembling tools for the current price of that very same tactical squad. Inflation is expected, but inflation should not exceed the customer’s expectations – or their reach.
All in all, though, I find the hobby to be highly imaginative and a wonderful thing to experience.
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You'll never see me coming.
Follow me on Twitter: @DavidPMcDougall
2,000 points
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2015/05/11 12:37:41
Subject: Re:Writing to Games Workshop
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[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide
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Woah, I missed that post. Good on you for getting such a detailed response!
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2015/05/11 12:41:09
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
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Some of those points are outside the regular topics, like use in schools.
Good luck with that.
Sending it to each named exec might help. Look on the investors pages for them.
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2015/05/11 12:58:41
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine
UK.
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Skinnereal wrote:Some of those points are outside the regular topics, like use in schools.
Good luck with that.
Sending it to each named exec might help. Look on the investors pages for them.
There's a reason for that. I'm throwing several different elements into the mix, so Tom doesn't think I'm simply complaining about the prices. And I'm not, by the way. Having not posted on Twitter since 2013 is unforgivable.
It also provides Tom with an alternative viewpoint (education) which may or may not get him thinking "Hmm, another market." It throws him off slightly. makes me appear to be supportive.
If the response ignores the education and the social media element then i know he's handed this down to one of his minions. It'll also depend on the response.
If the reply gives the reason for not having posted on twitter for so long as being down to the trolling, then they seriously need to re-address their social media guru and send him/her to Siberia. Twitter and Facebook are actually useful for addressing these issues.
Thanks. I may include the named execs.
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You'll never see me coming.
Follow me on Twitter: @DavidPMcDougall
2,000 points
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2015/05/11 12:58:58
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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I'd suggest that while price is undoubtedly an issue, there is also a wider issue where the expected quality (most especially the rules side) is falling far short of expecatations, expectations that the premium price is at least partially responsible for setting.
I'm sure I'm not alone in that I've already crossed the barrier to entry, and it isn't so much price as the direction the studio is taking the game has made it unrewarding to play, and as a consequence I've stopped investing in the game. I have no philosphical objection to paying £30 for a box of 5 models, I have an objection to paying £30 for a box of models whose rules make it hard to get play value from or who need at least 10 to work in any meaningful way.
Obviously this is my experince and opinion, rather than yours, but feel free to steal my ideas if you feel you'd like to.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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2015/05/11 13:23:39
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine
UK.
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Azreal13 wrote:I'd suggest that while price is undoubtedly an issue, there is also a wider issue where the expected quality (most especially the rules side) is falling far short of expecatations, expectations that the premium price is at least partially responsible for setting.
I'm sure I'm not alone in that I've already crossed the barrier to entry, and it isn't so much price as the direction the studio is taking the game has made it unrewarding to play, and as a consequence I've stopped investing in the game. I have no philosphical objection to paying £30 for a box of 5 models, I have an objection to paying £30 for a box of models whose rules make it hard to get play value from or who need at least 10 to work in any meaningful way.
Obviously this is my experince and opinion, rather than yours, but feel free to steal my ideas if you feel you'd like to.
Can you go into more detail regarding the the reasons for playing? Comparing beforehand to now.
How has it become unrewarding for you to play now?
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You'll never see me coming.
Follow me on Twitter: @DavidPMcDougall
2,000 points
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2015/05/11 14:03:23
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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First and foremost, the balance issues.
I'm not a competitive player, if anything I'm probably quite close to the type of player GW seem to want to cater to, I like thematic forces with a variety of units and I'm not a fan of spamming the same units. I also enjoy painting and modelling, I certainly spend more time doing that than I do playing a game of any stripe.
However, while I don't consider myself a competitive player in the sense I have no desire to play in tournaments, I do like my games to be competitive in the sense that there's a real challenge for both players and victory feels like at least a small achievement.
The issue is that the internal balance of many (all?) books is so poor that the unit I've spent £££ and hours of time purchasing, building (and perhaps converting) and painting can translate into being a poor choice in terms of having a competitive game, even to the point of essentials being a handicap.
I'm not advocating that all units should be useful in all circumstances, but there should be sufficient utility in each choice that it can become useful with intelligent play and list construction.
This leads me to the second element, which is the increasing disassociation of player input and decision making from determining a winner. Warlord traits, psychic powers, charge distances etc are all randomly determined, in my case as a Daemons player, even my wargear choices are essentially random, and every time a random table is introduced in lieu of giving the player a choice, it further removes player skill from the equation of who wins and loses.
Contrast that with X Wing, which I now spend most of my gaming time playing, where all lists are certainly not comparable in power (although the disparity is much less than 40K) but good play can increase your chances of victory against a superior list immeasurably because in game decision making, skill and judgement still contribute a substantial amount to deciding a winner.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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2015/05/11 15:36:01
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Posts with Authority
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Azreal13 wrote:First and foremost, the balance issues.
I'm not a competitive player, if anything I'm probably quite close to the type of player GW seem to want to cater to, I like thematic forces with a variety of units and I'm not a fan of spamming the same units. I also enjoy painting and modelling, I certainly spend more time doing that than I do playing a game of any stripe.
However, while I don't consider myself a competitive player in the sense I have no desire to play in tournaments, I do like my games to be competitive in the sense that there's a real challenge for both players and victory feels like at least a small achievement.
The issue is that the internal balance of many (all?) books is so poor that the unit I've spent £££ and hours of time purchasing, building (and perhaps converting) and painting can translate into being a poor choice in terms of having a competitive game, even to the point of essentials being a handicap.
I'm not advocating that all units should be useful in all circumstances, but there should be sufficient utility in each choice that it can become useful with intelligent play and list construction.
This leads me to the second element, which is the increasing disassociation of player input and decision making from determining a winner. Warlord traits, psychic powers, charge distances etc are all randomly determined, in my case as a Daemons player, even my wargear choices are essentially random, and every time a random table is introduced in lieu of giving the player a choice, it further removes player skill from the equation of who wins and loses.
Contrast that with X Wing, which I now spend most of my gaming time playing, where all lists are certainly not comparable in power (although the disparity is much less than 40K) but good play can increase your chances of victory against a superior list immeasurably because in game decision making, skill and judgement still contribute a substantial amount to deciding a winner.
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2015/05/11 15:40:47
Subject: Re:Writing to Games Workshop
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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2015/05/11 19:38:20
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord
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Azreal13 wrote:First and foremost, the balance issues.
I'm not a competitive player, if anything I'm probably quite close to the type of player GW seem to want to cater to, I like thematic forces with a variety of units and I'm not a fan of spamming the same units. I also enjoy painting and modelling, I certainly spend more time doing that than I do playing a game of any stripe.
However, while I don't consider myself a competitive player in the sense I have no desire to play in tournaments, I do like my games to be competitive in the sense that there's a real challenge for both players and victory feels like at least a small achievement.
The issue is that the internal balance of many (all?) books is so poor that the unit I've spent £££ and hours of time purchasing, building (and perhaps converting) and painting can translate into being a poor choice in terms of having a competitive game, even to the point of essentials being a handicap.
I'm not advocating that all units should be useful in all circumstances, but there should be sufficient utility in each choice that it can become useful with intelligent play and list construction.
This leads me to the second element, which is the increasing disassociation of player input and decision making from determining a winner. Warlord traits, psychic powers, charge distances etc are all randomly determined, in my case as a Daemons player, even my wargear choices are essentially random, and every time a random table is introduced in lieu of giving the player a choice, it further removes player skill from the equation of who wins and loses.
Contrast that with X Wing, which I now spend most of my gaming time playing, where all lists are certainly not comparable in power (although the disparity is much less than 40K) but good play can increase your chances of victory against a superior list immeasurably because in game decision making, skill and judgement still contribute a substantial amount to deciding a winner.
This.
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Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. |
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2015/05/11 20:14:56
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Bryan Ansell
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If GW saw itself as a games company rather than a miniature making company..................
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2015/05/11 20:17:47
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Fixture of Dakka
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I wouldn't bother - they'll just respond with platitudes.
Move on, find a different game. There are plenty of quality alternatives out there now. Dropzone Commander, Infinity, X-Wing etc etc etc.
By their own admission, GW just want you to buy pretty miniatures at a mark-up. The only reason they bother with the game at all is that even they've figured out that there needs to be a reason for players/collectors to buy the stuff.
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2015/05/11 20:54:07
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Krazed Killa Kan
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Stockholm syndrome in full effect.
GW is a business, first and foremost. They know they have you by the balls, to the point where they know that all you can do is write ineffectual letters to them, meanwhile you still buy their product.
Stop buying that product, and move on.
As history has shown, emotional appeals do no work while the person you're appealing to is rolling around in bathtubs full of money that you willingly handed to them.
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2015/05/11 21:53:41
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide
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Do companies interpret letters as I'm still going to give you my money?
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2015/05/11 22:32:29
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Rust belt
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honestly Tom Kirby is not going to read your letter, one of the secretary will read it and respond. You can write letters all day long to GW and nothing is going to change. Remember last fall when there was a petition that 10k + people signed that was sent to GW? It did nothing and that was over 10k of players
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2015/05/11 22:43:23
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body
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How do you know?
If you're not part of GW's management structure, in the absence of any public statements, that's merely an assumption with little evidence to support it.
The fact is, if your sales are falling, and someone hands you a document that 10000 of your customers have signed (which, in .GW's case is probably a measurable percentage of their customers, bearing in mind the level of engagement each of the signatories must have had to even be aware of the petition, it's probably an influential percentage too) that tells you your product isn't up to scratch, that's a flashing neon arrow showing you the direction you should probably be taking.
There's likely a huge amount of momentum to deal with, so even making the fairly shaky assumption they have decided to take it all on board and make the effort, it would still take longer than it's been to show change in the game of the scale it needs.
I do love the "nothing will happen, why even bother?" crowd though, it's a good job not everyone thinks like that or we'd still be stuck in the Dark Ages.
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We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club |
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2015/05/11 22:45:19
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader
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Chute82 wrote:honestly Tom Kirby is not going to read your letter, one of the secretary will read it and respond. You can write letters all day long to GW and nothing is going to change. Remember last fall when there was a petition that 10k + people signed that was sent to GW? It did nothing and that was over 10k of players
For those of us that missed that petition, mind if I ask what it was about?
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2015/05/11 22:49:17
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Cosmic Joe
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Combine this letter with "not buying GW products until complaints are addressed" and I'd be on board.
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Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. |
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2015/05/11 23:48:44
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Monstrous Master Moulder
Rust belt
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MWHistorian wrote:Combine this letter with "not buying GW products until complaints are addressed" and I'd be on board.
These corporate guys only understand money. Quit buying their crappy products and then they will start to listen. Can't write letters and keep supporting their product hoping things are going to change
Automatically Appended Next Post:
statu wrote: Chute82 wrote:honestly Tom Kirby is not going to read your letter, one of the secretary will read it and respond. You can write letters all day long to GW and nothing is going to change. Remember last fall when there was a petition that 10k + people signed that was sent to GW? It did nothing and that was over 10k of players
For those of us that missed that petition, mind if I ask what it was about?
corrected it here it is. https://www.change.org/p/games-workshop-limited-refocus-your-business-model-on-the-sale-of-a-game-and-support-of-a-gaming-community-vice-the-pure-sale-of-collectible-miniatures
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/11 23:59:04
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2015/05/12 01:21:44
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Krazed Killa Kan
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malfred wrote:Do companies interpret letters as I'm still going to give you my money?
Depends on the company. GW is clearly the kind of company that sees a letter, even one with a lot of signatures, not as an indication that a change for the better is necessary.
Instead, as their sales numbers and release pandering has shown, they see such letters as an indication that they still have a captive and entrenched market that they can endlessly milk and toy with.
That 1000 signatures isn't 1000 people to be concerned with. It's a number of people that a significant percentage of which will still buy their overpriced stuff when they release something new.
Other companies would take it better, but then again, other companies probably aren't at the point where they could get a petition or letter with 1000 signatures.
Thus, the only way to make sure they take notice and change, is to hit their bottom line.
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2015/05/12 01:52:11
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide
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Interesting interpretation.
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2015/05/12 02:32:37
Subject: Re:Writing to Games Workshop
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Fixture of Dakka
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GW appreciates your input!
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2015/05/12 07:34:24
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Fixture of Dakka
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I liked the final point. It's all they need to say really...
"Your models are the key playing pieces of this game, and will make you the most money. Without the game though, they are worth nothing."
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2015/05/12 08:29:22
Subject: Writing to Games Workshop
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Calculating Commissar
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malfred wrote:Do companies interpret letters as I'm still going to give you my money?
Not if you staple a bunch of mantic/perry/warlord/etc receipts to it.
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