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What's the story behind this? A sculptor is saying that
their work is being shopped around for a kickstarter that
hasn't paid them? I don't really follow kickstarter drama.

I'd post the pic here but I don't know the veracity of
anything the image is claiming.

I think
that the
information
you've posted
is a little
too
vague to
connect with
any news.

Jason Wiebe did some work for Eastern Front Studios various Kickstarters, and hasn't been paid for it.

Hehe that's the one.

Jason Wiebe was also paid to do sculpts for Low Life Miniatures, did only a small portion of them and months to over a year late, before they canceled his contract and had to hire a new sculptor.

So what's the whole story here?

EasternFront Studios EFS (Mick Leach) has been involved in a number of KS either directly under their own name, or as sub contractors where they were meant to be doing mini design/casting

eg
Low Life Miniatures
Dwarf Gladiators
Midgard
Bite Me
Fallen Cities of Karez

where delivery has been very slow, very very slow, partial or just non existant

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/54373-if-efs-planned-d-day/page-7?hl=leach#entry870080

Jason Wiebe is a freelance sculptor who has worked for him (an a whole bunch of other companies including big names like Reaper), he also has a major bout of ill health a couple (?) of years back which meant he couldn't do stuff he'd be commissioned to do (and this is me guessing here, was not as on top of who'd paid him as he should have been)

he also did work for Centre Stage Miniatures which are now in the process of bankruptcy with several outstanding KS projects and I think (not certain) that there are unpaid greens involved there (I know there are for other sculptors that were involved) which are probably going to be considered company assets and thus will be lost which may explain why he (or his friends) are now trying to put pressure on other firms with outstanding issues so he can at least get the greens back before they fold (if they do)

Jason Weibe has done quite a bit of work for well respected American miniatures companies (I met him while he was working on something for Reaper). He is a very good sculptor, and well respected in professional circles.

I can see why his schedule might be very booked, and things will get especially crazy if he was ill (freelance artists' schedules go crazy when they only take one or two sick days. Major illness can be catastrophic to the schedule).


Artists are often asked to do work for Kickstarters without being paid in advance. A company that's going bankrupt with outstanding kickstarters is going to be bad news for them (especially since if anyone does buy those sculpts, they will still need to pay the sculptors in order to have the rights to produce them).

Thanks. So this is not necessarily about this company releasing his stuff, rIght?

What will happen is that those items will be sold off in bankruptcy, and then Jason will be paid for his work after any secured creditors get paid. In other words, he worked "at risk" and is SOL. He won't see a penny for his work.

He is attempting to assert moral rights where he has ZERO legal rights.

Next time, he needs to be paid upon delivery unless he is receiving royalties (and those need a schedule as well).

 odinsgrandson wrote:

Artists are often asked to do work for Kickstarters without being paid in advance.

That I just don't understand. You do the work, you get paid. That's my philosophy. But I suppose if an artists agrees to a deal, that's their business. It's not something I'd ever ask for though.

As Hwang said, if you do your work 'at risk', too bad. Negotiate better terms next time. Freelancers get fethed over a lot though, so I sympathize. This BS makes it hard to hire a sculptor too, because lots of artists are gunshy from being burned. Add to this the fact that miniatures work often pays less than lots of other sculpting gigs, and it can be really difficult to find a sculptor.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


He is attempting to assert moral rights where he has ZERO legal rights.

Actually, he still owns the Copyright to those minis (which is what he's asserting). If he wasn't paid, he can't have sold his copyright. Miniatures companies sometimes screw that up and sell greens thinking that they have rights they don't own (like Magnificent Egos). But owning the green doesn't grant rights to produce the miniatures.

Is this common then?

 malfred wrote:
Is this common then?

Not in my experience.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


He is attempting to assert moral rights where he has ZERO legal rights.

Actually, he still owns the Copyright to those minis (which is what he's asserting). If he wasn't paid, he can't have sold his copyright. Miniatures companies sometimes screw that up and sell greens thinking that they have rights they don't own (like Magnificent Egos). But owning the green doesn't grant rights to produce the miniatures.

I feel like I should clarify my earlier post.

I absolutely agree with Odinsgrandson that it is likely Jason Webe still holds the copyright to those sculpts (though he might not depending on what the contract terms were), and if so, anyone holding those sculpts should not copy them, display them, or violate any of the author's other exclusive rights.

What I meant by "if you do your work 'at risk', too bad" is that if you don't get paid for 'at risk' work, that's too bad for you. Next time negotiate better payment terms. I think it might be possible for an artist to transfer ownership rights even in the event of non-payment, but that would be a totally F'd up contract.

weeble1000 wrote:
That I just don't understand. You do the work, you get paid. That's my philosophy. But I suppose if an artists agrees to a deal, that's their business. It's not something I'd ever ask for though.

I definitely agree to some extent. I believe people should have a better understanding of arrangements to properly arrange terms. I can understand an artist trying to help someone or cutting a good deal to for a Kickstarters. However as such knowing when a KS is completed, 30 days payment is released, that should have been the agreed time to collect payment in full. At least early on if this was done, announced then that raises other red flags that allows it easier to deal with at a faster rate. The whole purpose of a Kickstarter usually is to cover or recoup costs to develop these products so there would be no reason to not pay in full. In most cases though because of the above happening, most artists want the money up front or at the very least 50% before any work is done, final payment upon completion.

 Dark Severance wrote:
In most cases though because of the above happening, most artists want the money up front or at the very least 50% before any work is done, final payment upon completion.

This.

Half down, half on completion is standard for services.

If I were doing work on commission, I'd expect 50% up front, 50% on delivery, final payment due immediately upon receipt. Unless I'm getting royalties, in which case, I want a defined % of gross revenues specified in my contract. In a Kickstarter, the gross revenue is relatively easy to see, so royalty calculation becomes pretty easy.

Working at risk, without security / leverage, nope, that's just not a good way to do business.

Anyway, here's what I see going on:

-Jason Wiebe's not getting paid by Eastern Front Studios. That much is clear.

-He asserts that he still owns the copyright to those mini (license). I find no reason to believe otherwise.

-Why is he posting this to facebook?

Probably, he's facebook friends with a lot of industry professionals and wants to alert miniatures companies or casters that they cannot buy the copyrights to those miniatures from Eastern Front Studios because those rights are still owned by Jason Wiebe.

If he is successful, it will keep EFS from scamming some company, and it is possible that someone who wants to create those miniatures will know that they need to contact Jason Wiebe.

Best case circumstances are that those minis get made, and Jason gets paid.

So what he's doing seems totally reasonable to me.

Thanks. That's helpful to know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wouldn't companies have to do due diligence to ascertain that
they are able to purchase said copyrights?

 malfred wrote:
Thanks. That's helpful to know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wouldn't companies have to do due diligence to ascertain that
they are able to purchase said copyrights?

Generally its a given. You pay someone to do a piece of work, you own said piece of work.

If you don't pay, you don't own.

 Cyporiean wrote:

 malfred wrote:
Thanks. That's helpful to know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wouldn't companies have to do due diligence to ascertain that
they are able to purchase said copyrights?

Generally its a given. You pay someone to do a piece of work, you own said piece of work.

If you don't pay, you don't own.

It aint that simple. First of all, it depends on what country you are in.

Secondly, it is always best to be explicit about the transfer, if any, of intellectual property rights. A commission might only involve a limited license to the artwork in question. Work for Hire typically means a transfer of ownership rights, but some rights may be retained by the artist even then.

The US doesn't have so-called 'moral rights', whereas many other countries do. In some countries, an artist cannot give up his or her moral right to attribution, for example.

Intellectual property is complex, so it is always best to have an agreement bound within an explicit, unambiguous contract.

But as for 'don't pay, don't own', what if the artwork in question was based on concept art that the commissioning party does own, and which was created by a different artist who was paid for the work?

If the commissioned piece is derivative of your copyright in another work, the commissioned piece might be a new work of art, but one which the owner of the underlying copyright also owns.

What if the contract included an NDA that remained in force even if the contract was otherwise terminated? The artist might retain ownership of the work in the event of termination/non-payment, but would potentially be unable to get any benefit from the piece if it falls within the scope of the NDA.

Think about it. You are a production company and you hire a freelancer to do artwork for your new movie. You don't like the artwork, it isn't up to quality, so you don't pay the artist. What happens if the artist then sells the work to someone else? What if the piece is a big spoiler for your film?

In the end, though, regardless of what a contract says, in my view the best philosophy to have is 'you do the work, you get paid'. Buy the work and stick it in a drawer forever if you want, but pay the artist. Always pay the artist.

weeble1000 wrote:
Intellectual property is complex, so it is always best to have an agreement bound within an explicit, unambiguous contract.

Yeah, but that'd require this industry to actually use contracts.

 Cyporiean wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
Intellectual property is complex, so it is always best to have an agreement bound within an explicit, unambiguous contract.

Yeah, but that'd require this industry to actually use contracts.

I sure as use contracts. Anyone who doesn't is irresponsible. And that goes for both parties.

Freelancers should insist on a contract, and should insist on payment terms that they are comfortable with. My company's standard contract terms are payment upon final approval, but we are perfectly happy to be flexible.

Some freelancers prefer half up front, which spreads the risk more evenly. Some don't want to get caught in an endless series of back and forth revisions, and put a cap of some sort on revisions. All perfectly reasonable.

Negotiating a contract is also a good way to see if you are going to have a comfortable working relationship with another party. If you can't comfortably agree on terms, the work is not going to go well and you should quit while you are ahead.

Some of the sculptors I work with ask for a portion up front to be safe, and don't give the final files/greens till the final payment is sent. Sad thing is they ask for it only because they've been burned before. But that method works fine for me, in fact I kinda prefer breaking it up into 2 smaller payments rather than one big one. Costs the same but somehow feels cheaper in my brain.

I wouldn't ask someone to do minis and "hopefully I can pay you if my KS funds". If you can't afford the work right now, don't get it done till you can.

 Necros wrote:
Some of the sculptors I work with ask for a portion up front to be safe, and don't give the final files/greens till the final payment is sent. Sad thing is they ask for it only because they've been burned before. But that method works fine for me, in fact I kinda prefer breaking it up into 2 smaller payments rather than one big one. Costs the same but somehow feels cheaper in my brain.

I wouldn't ask someone to do minis and "hopefully I can pay you if my KS funds". If you can't afford the work right now, don't get it done till you can.

Yeah, this is the same I'm used to dealing with. 33~50~100% upfront, Remainder once its done or it doesn't get shipped/delivered... but not a proper contract.

Just 'Hey I need you to do *thing*' 'Okay, It'll be this much and I need this much upfront.' 'Great, paypal incoming.'

I can totally relate to the 'Two smaller payments is easier than one big one' statement.

I don't know that I'd be able to work as a freelancer. I mean, lacking skills aside, the business end would do me under.

Many years ago, I did a bit of freelance painting, at basically zero risk, because the amounts were small, and I always had the object as collateral.

Pure services like sculpting? No way, not without a retainer or downpayment.

Mick Leach of Eastern Front Studios has been having some health issues of late, actually since last December, combined with some internet connectivity problems at his home. A long stay at the VA hospital has kept him offline for most of this year.

I would advise Jason Weibe to attempt to contact Mick at least one more time before calling this a loss. Mick was posting on FB a few days ago, so maybe they can straighten this out.

No idea how I even ran across the post. Probably some studio
painter I'm following on facebook or something.

This situation has been resolved.