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So, taking the heat away from Eldar for a second, I wanted to ask the community something. Is it possible to play a "casual" Decurion list? I'm asking because within the past 3 games, I've run less and less good stuff in each list, and still made a few friends not want to play against Necrons, as even my "casual" lists have been good. Here's an example of how things went.

First game, 2v2, Necrons/Eldar (Wasn't my idea, really...) vs. Skitarii/Blood Angels. They ran some average stuff, the blood angel friend ran Death Company with Astorath and some Assault marines with a Librarian, and the skitarii player used different infantry units and a single Onager (It was 1000 points a player). My Eldar bud used Guardians in a Serpent, Dire Avengers with a Spiritseer, Warp Spyders, Hawks, and Dark Reapers. No formations or anything. Then I used a Decurion. Command barge overlord with a Staff of Light, and some footslog troops, with 10 infiltrating Flayed Ones. They had a few bad rolls, but nothing serious. They smacked into my infantry and stayed there, and my elder counterpart lost a few models here and there. The Flayed ones proceeded to chew through scouts, 2 separate skitarri units, and killed the lone Astorath. Both players hate Necrons now.

The game right after that, my space marine bud wanted to try his first ever game against Newcrons, and wanted to try the Siege Vanguard list from forgeworld. So, he was using Ravenguard tactics, with a ton of outflanking tac squads, Sternguard in a razorback, Vanguard Vets with a Captain with the Teeth of Terra in a Storm Raven, 3 dakkapreds (2 in a squad with Monster Hunter), a Vindicator, and a Whirlwind. I tried to bring a tame list to have a fun game, so, I brought my generic Reclamation Legion (2 ~15 man blobs of warriors, 10 Immortals, 6 Tomb Blades, Lychguard with decked out Overlord on foot), A Judicator Battalion (Mainly cuz I've rarely played it), and the Nightbringer and The Deceiver. He blew up 3 Warriors turn 1 with the Vindicator (8 wounds, 5+ RP saved 5), and blew up the Deceiver with the Preds. Then proceeded to get tabled with little effort. His biggest complaint was he was "getting assaulted off the board by Warriors", which was true, for the most part. Sad thing is, the Praetorians mainly killed Rhinos, and my Overlord killed the Storm Raven and his Captain, otherwise, everything else died to Tomb Blades or basic Infantry. The Deceiver was the only full unit he killed. Thus, he refuses to play against Newcrons.

Then, last night I played a 2v2 with some friends (Dark Eldar/Tau Vs. Necrons/Space Marines), and we all used casual lists. Yes, I made sure my space marine friend was on my side. Wyches in Raiders, Bloodbrides with a Succubus, Kroot, Fire Warriors, Stealth suits, Crisis suits, Shadowsun, ext. My teammate used Assault Termies, Assault Marines, 2 Librarians, Sternguard in a Razorback, some Las Devs, and a ton of Tac Marines. My list had a Reclamation Legion with a full squad of immortals, 6 tomb blades, and a Command Barge. They were accompanied by 10 Flayed Ones, and an Annhilation Nexus (I wanted to bring the "sub-par" units). They had some back luck on their side, and my teammate was rolling pretty hot turn 2. We just called it at turn 5 as they had no objectives, and we were a ton of points in the lead (The Scouring). My Dark elder bud even admitted he shouldn't have run that list, but he really wanted to try and make wyches do something cool (we all know they cant). But, my teammate also admitted he saw that ending coming, because Necrons were involved.

So, I feel as though I can't win. I'll admit to you good folks, that I love the Decurion. Not because of the power-level, but because it makes my robots actually feel like they should. It gives flavor to my army, and I love that. Plus, I love how the army is built using the Decurion (The CAD is boring and prone to min/maxing, which I hate). But, should I just stop using it in casual games? What are your experiences with this, and what do you do to compensate? I love all the units in this book, even Wraiths and Destroyers, but god forbid I ever use those. So, am I in the wrong for even thinking of bringing Decurion? Am I "That guy"? Or is this based on something else, or even partially on my opponent for their lists? I'm at a loss here. These last few games I feel haven't been fun for anyone, even me, in all honesty.

Might be time to unbox the Tyranids for awhile...

some flavors are better then other. one of my most offten played opponents plays GK. Are GK op? no. Does he play unbound 6 NDKS vs IG? no. Sometimes he plays with 3 ndks sometimes he plays with 2 and some centurions or an imperial knight. Nothing OP just a casual list, he sometimes even takes realy sub par stuff like his GM. Just because he sculpted it himself. But I can't deal with his armies no matter what I do. In the case of necron or eldar, their casual lists are so good, that they could play against tournament lists and have a good chance to win.

I'd agree with you that the Decurion does add flavor.

And I think once other codex's get the treatment that necrons and elder have gotten now with the more flavorful army building formats it'll be leveled out. But when playing against 6th ed codex's and even the early 7th ed ones having the extra bonus's really give a leg up. So even when you aren't try-harding its still better then others.

So yeah, a casual Decurion is better than an average IG, SM, Tau...

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
I'd agree with you that the Decurion does add flavor.

And I think once other codex's get the treatment that necrons and elder have gotten now with the more flavorful army building formats it'll be leveled out. But when playing against 6th ed codex's and even the early 7th ed ones having the extra bonus's really give a leg up. So even when you aren't try-harding its still better then others.

So yeah, a casual Decurion is better than an average IG, SM, Tau...

Yeah, I agree

One of the issues of GW play balancing is that they change tracks before they finish a complete set of codices. Until Codex Necron all of the rule books were headed in one direction (weaker, more toned down, crappier troops). Since then, and the Decurion style armies, the general power level has shot up and the force organization has changed dramatically. I suppose Harlequins would be an exception, though I would argue that it's pretty hard to play Harlequins all by themselves anyhow. But Skitarii, Eldar, Necron, and what we've seen of Cult Mechanicus all have a similar power level and structure. The thing is, will they ride it out and give all the other factions the same treatment, or suddenly change their minds halfway through?

Personally, I like Decurion and Warhost. The factions feel much more complete with Core + Command + Auxiliary, as compared to CAD and just random formations in a zillion sources. I like also that some of the Auxiliary (or Core) are also formations in and of themselves. Such structure has wonderful opportunities when looking at the factions with a large number of models, like IG, SM, Tau, Tyranid, Ork and DE. Less so for GK and IK, who just don't have enough models; who knows what will happen to in power level to DA since they seem to never get love in that department, and BA aren't going to get another book for a little while, but at least they have some cool and useful formations. Plus, their models are close enough to vanilla to simply play them as such (unlike GK for example).

For my taste, GW has struck the right balance of formation limitations with flexibility and power level in the Decurion style army. You can choose the army that you want and build it the way you want to, but each subunit is structured (and consumes a certain number of points). With, I suppose, the exception of Wraithknights, but I guess that's just the Eldar equivalent of Imperial Knights. But cheaper, lol.

Such structure has wonderful opportunities when looking at the factions with a large number of models, like IG, SM, Tau, Tyranid, Ork and DE.

That is only true if the units making the formation are good to begin with. Eldar and necron have good units in general. So they get extra buff on top of good stuff. Stuff they would normaly take anyway. On the other hand something like wychs or ogryns is so bad, that even if a formation was there no one would take them anyway.

Also why necron and eldar got the decurion before other factions is beyond me. GW knew they were going to do this for 7th. Unless of course all the books until necron were made with 6th ed in mind, and are 7th ed books only in name.

Makumba wrote:

Also why necron and eldar got the decurion before other factions is beyond me. GW knew they were going to do this for 7th. Unless of course all the books until necron were made with 6th ed in mind, and are 7th ed books only in name.

I don't think they did. I think they write the books as they write the books, and the Decurion idea came some time down the pipe. Call them 7.5 format

The real question is whether all other major factions with full model sets will get a Decurion style force organization. I do agree with what you say though, Decurion style formations are more interesting when half the units for the faction aren't terrible picks in the first place. We shall see, I suppose!

Here's to hoping Space Marines turns out to be a good codex.

At OP, I feel your pain. I have now given everyone in my circle of gaming buddies a good stomping with the Decurion. I took a loss to a Reaver Titan with 4 Imperial Knights, but thats it.

Some of my friends have expressed approval of the new power, since it lets them take off their own kid gloves, and some have said (or I could just tell) that they don't want to play against Decurion anymore. Since I think Decurion makes Necrons play like they actually should, I'm not tossing it in for CAD to play games reminiscent of 6th, which I've already played a million of, but rather am just using my Nids and CSM against players who I can tell were frustrated against the Decurion.

To the OP: I know how you feel; I try to play Eldar without being cheesy, but some individuals simply can't be convinced otherwise.

From the units you brought and the lists you've posted about in the past, I can tell you're not the WAAC type. You brought units that you thought were cool and effective while not being over-the-top to the table, and managed to win.

The only thing really nasty about the Decurion is the Canoptek Harvest formation and Destroyer Cult+Triarch Stalker. Other than that, all of the other lists are perfectly fine and reasonable.

I like the Decurion-style detachment for xenos armies, as it gives them much more structural flavor than the IoM, and is more in line with the lore.

Looking at you opponents' lists, they all seem pretty strong and balanced, apart from the siege formation and the Dark Eldar list with no ranged support. It's most likely a matter of you simply outplaying them on the tabletop.

As for the complaints about being swept by Necron Warriors, that's your opponent's fault. Tac Marines will die in assault to Necron Warriors because the Warriors are considerably more durable. But units like Death Company and Assault Marines should pulverize Necrons in CC if they get the charge. The reason Necron Warriors can put the hurt on in CC is because they are more durable and have more attacks on the charge. It's a matter of dictating the terms of battle; charge your opponent's weak units and kite/shoot the scary CC units.

The reason a lot of people hate the new Necrons and the Decurion in particular is because they don't know how to play against them. None of the units in Necrons are overpowered (except for Wraiths, those could use a points increase). You wouldn't play against Tyranids the same way you would play against Space Marines? It's a matter of people adjusting their tactics and mindset.

Also, try playing more Malestrom. That tends to even everything out before the gods of RNG.

how to play against them? I thought casual means you take what you want. Right now the games looks like eldar and necron can build a casual+ list. Take almost everything they may want and it works great. And if lets say an IG player would want to play a casual list, he will get beaten hard by those eldar or necron list. Add RNG to it and you wonder why people dislike playing against those two armies and blame it on lack of skill of other people? realy?

I really dont understand the hate against the Decurion. People seem to complain about the Army wide bonus to RP, but that's nothing really new. We had a 4+ in the Oldcron Dex, it was available in the Wardcron Dex, and is still available outside of a Decurion. Sure we aren't paying for it in a Decurion, which might be a legit issue. I think the real issue is with the change to RP itself.

As I've been playing my games, I've been keeping track in my head, of how many models in a unit would've died if I had to make my RP rolls at the end of the phase. I've rarely seen enough wounds to potentially wipe out a whole unit until Turn 2 or 3. So the outcome isn't any different from previous editions to me. I should note that I don't run MSU, so I could see some problems there as well.

The big change did come in CC though, as we don't get to count the Casualties before RP, and we get more attacks back offering us a chance to cause more wounds, closing the Gap in LD to avoid being swept. Decurion or not, this is a huge adjustment that our opponents must deal with.

As for 'Casual' Decurions it's entirely possible. Most of the lists I've seen appear to be Rec+Canoptek or Destroyer. You still have a Battle Forged list if you run just the Formations, so that's an option. It gets into the 'Why not just take the bonus if you meet the requirements' argument, and the answer is the reason we're talking about it in the first place.

I've been running Szeras in CADs. I've have some other lists that I haven't played yet, but they're Dual CAD, or CADs with a Royal Court maxing out Crypteks. The Szeras lists have been enough to show that the 4+ RP isn't the issue. For some reason, my opponents lose the Stigma, and play a good game. Some of the guys that have played me repeatedly are seeing that it really has a small impact on the games.

I've been convincing some players to allow me to go Unbound. This is where I still take the Reclamation Legion, backed up by Triarch Stalkers w/o Judicator or wraiths w/o Canoptek. They seem to lose that Stigma when they note that my Flayed Ones and Tomb Blades don't have the bonus to RP once they get away from Szeras, but ignore the fact that the army tactics remain mostly unchanged. The Tomb Blade still score, destroy stuff in Cove, and Move all over the place. Flayed Ones still can't be ignored and generate an enormous number of wounds. Wraiths still are difficult to kill, and Tarpit most things even w/o gaining RP.

Yet, they still have more fun.

Everyone I've played in casual or pick up, I give them the option to play Decurion or non. First time, they usually say play whatever, so I go Decurion. After that I usually hear the usual 'That's OP' that were all seeing. I simply inform them that I will play next time w/o a Decurion, they just have to ask simple as that. When playing a non Decurion game, I make a case for Unbound, since the Reclamation legion is my favorite thing, and Unbound is the only way I can get it in w/o going Decurion. If not, then I play the exact same list, just as a CAD, and it still works.

EDIT: As above, Maelstrom games tend to be a better environment as stated above.

It's all about that 4+RP. When you play friendly games, play your Decurion, but don't roll the 4+RP. House rule it a 5+ or 6+. It really really sucks i know, but unfortunately Necrons are really broken now. With my IG, they are unbeatable IMO, and just plain not fun to play against.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
To the OP: I know how you feel; I try to play Eldar without being cheesy, but some individuals simply can't be convinced otherwise.

From the units you brought and the lists you've posted about in the past, I can tell you're not the WAAC type. You brought units that you thought were cool and effective while not being over-the-top to the table, and managed to win.

The only thing really nasty about the Decurion is the Canoptek Harvest formation and Destroyer Cult+Triarch Stalker. Other than that, all of the other lists are perfectly fine and reasonable.

I like the Decurion-style detachment for xenos armies, as it gives them much more structural flavor than the IoM, and is more in line with the lore.

Looking at you opponents' lists, they all seem pretty strong and balanced, apart from the siege formation and the Dark Eldar list with no ranged support. It's most likely a matter of you simply outplaying them on the tabletop.

As for the complaints about being swept by Necron Warriors, that's your opponent's fault. Tac Marines will die in assault to Necron Warriors because the Warriors are considerably more durable. But units like Death Company and Assault Marines should pulverize Necrons in CC if they get the charge. The reason Necron Warriors can put the hurt on in CC is because they are more durable and have more attacks on the charge. It's a matter of dictating the terms of battle; charge your opponent's weak units and kite/shoot the scary CC units.

The reason a lot of people hate the new Necrons and the Decurion in particular is because they don't know how to play against them. None of the units in Necrons are overpowered (except for Wraiths, those could use a points increase). You wouldn't play against Tyranids the same way you would play against Space Marines? It's a matter of people adjusting their tactics and mindset.

Also, try playing more Malestrom. That tends to even everything out before the gods of RNG.

Well, I did play last night against a new guy at our store, and he's never played against Newcrons yet. So, 1500 points, I brought my generic non-min Rec legion, and a Judicator Battalion, and he was using Ravenguard Tactics. We did, of course, play Maelstrom, the only downside was on top of him not killing anything (His Captain with assault marines did, in fact, get the charge, and got stuck in for 3 whole turns against Warriors) the cards were also against him. I didn't bother fully calculating, but he had a 1 wound Captain and 5 scouts left at the end of the game, and had killed 2 units of mine, and the score was somewhere in the ~17-5 range. Maelstrom is fun, but it can be one-sided, or add to the hurting for the other side just as easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chootum wrote:
It's all about that 4+RP. When you play friendly games, play your Decurion, but don't roll the 4+RP. House rule it a 5+ or 6+. It really really sucks i know, but unfortunately Necrons are really broken now. With my IG, they are unbeatable IMO, and just plain not fun to play against.

My IG friend has done rather well against my crons with his casual lists. First game we tied, then we did a 2v2 and it came to a win for Crons/Blood Angels, but by the skin of our teeth. In both games, Obj Sec was the big issue for Crons, and thats something IG do very well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Akar wrote:

I've been running Szeras in CADs. I've have some other lists that I haven't played yet, but they're Dual CAD, or CADs with a Royal Court maxing out Crypteks. The Szeras lists have been enough to show that the 4+ RP isn't the issue. For some reason, my opponents lose the Stigma, and play a good game. Some of the guys that have played me repeatedly are seeing that it really has a small impact on the games.

I actually respect the fact that this codex has support for the CAD. Obelisk's Sleeping Sentry rule, Orb of Eternity, Crypteks, Szeras, Implacable Conquerer warlord trait, ext. All of these things don't do nearly anything in a Decurion, but are infinitely better in a CAD. I made a footcron list to go against my friends Footdar list, and used Anrakyr, Szeras, Imotekh, and a ton of warriors and Immortals. Marching up the board, they'll essentially have most of the benefits of the Decurion, without the "tax" units. My space marine friend still thinks that's bogus, but, eh, what can you do?

 Akar wrote:
I really dont understand the hate against the Decurion. People seem to complain about the Army wide bonus to RP, but that's nothing really new.

It isn't this at all. The Decurion hate is just the same as CWE hate. Necron were a good, solid faction before, and pretty easy to play. A lot of people lost to them at a higher ratio than they did to other factions, and Decurion is effectively a buff to the faction. What people wanted was for Necron to be nerfed to uselessness, so that the people who used to win games regularly would moan about how useless their faction became -- kind of like Grey Knights.

 Talys wrote:

 Akar wrote:
I really dont understand the hate against the Decurion. People seem to complain about the Army wide bonus to RP, but that's nothing really new.

It isn't this at all. The Decurion hate is just the same as CWE hate. Necron were a good, solid faction before, and pretty easy to play. A lot of people lost to them at a higher ratio than they did to other factions, and Decurion is effectively a buff to the faction. What people wanted was for Necron to be nerfed to uselessness, so that the people who used to win games regularly would moan about how useless their faction became -- kind of like Grey Knights.

As much as I admit buffing an already good faction to be better isn't needed, wishing the opposite on a faction is still just as bad for a game overall. If Necrons were nerfed into nothingness, I'd quit 40k, simply because they're my favorite faction. So, I respect what GW did. Made our bad units good, nerfed the things that people complained about (MSS, Tesla), and changed Reanimation to what people wanted it to become. I remember talking about hopes for what the 7th ed. Codex would bring, and soooo many people said they should simplify RP to be a FNP roll, and non-necron players agreed. Viola, folks. But, now people complain about it even more. There's no winning!

 Talys wrote:

 Akar wrote:
I really dont understand the hate against the Decurion. People seem to complain about the Army wide bonus to RP, but that's nothing really new.

It isn't this at all. The Decurion hate is just the same as CWE hate. Necron were a good, solid faction before, and pretty easy to play. A lot of people lost to them at a higher ratio than they did to other factions, and Decurion is effectively a buff to the faction. What people wanted was for Necron to be nerfed to uselessness, so that the people who used to win games regularly would moan about how useless their faction became -- kind of like Grey Knights.

This is rather disingenuous. People expected a few specific issues to get nerfed. Tesla working absurdly well on snapshots, Nightscythes being priced like old 5E Skimmers, CCB's being absurdly unkillable, and Wraiths being a bit too capable. Nobody was going around wanting Necrons to get turned into a crap army.

What happened was that they fixed a couple things, very gingerly nerfed a couple, unthinkably buffed at least one, and massively overbuffed the army-wide capabilities.

The resulting problem then being that even relatively "mild" Necron builds often simply are too resilient for many armies to effectively combat, particularly armies not built to razor-edge competitive standards.

I would disagree. Yes, the bumped up the baseline performance of a lot of units, but they did not gingerly nerf a few units. They more or less wrecked them. It results in an optimized necron list being perhaps a bit better than it was with the 5ed codex while the weaker lists have become significantly stronger, especially if you are running a decurion. Necron lost a whole lot in the high strength shooting department and gained workable melee units that are not wraiths and CCB:s (which incidentally also took a massive hit, though is still good). They also gained a whole lot of durability due to a 50% army wide increase in reanimation.

Ratflinger wrote:
I would disagree. Yes, the bumped up the baseline performance of a lot of units, but they did not gingerly nerf a few units. They more or less wrecked them. It results in an optimized necron list being perhaps a bit better than it was with the 5ed codex while the weaker lists have become significantly stronger, especially if you are running a decurion. Necron lost a whole lot in the high strength shooting department and gained workable melee units that are not wraiths and CCB:s (which incidentally also took a massive hit, though is still good). They also gained a whole lot of durability due to a 50% army wide increase in reanimation.

What units got "wrecked"?

The only high strength shooting that was affected were Tesla Destructor units unless I'm missing something. Other ranged firepower units, like Doomsday Ark and Heavy Destroyers are significantly more capable.

 Vaktathi wrote:
What units got "wrecked"?

Tranny CTan , and old school Crypteks.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
I would disagree. Yes, the bumped up the baseline performance of a lot of units, but they did not gingerly nerf a few units. They more or less wrecked them. It results in an optimized necron list being perhaps a bit better than it was with the 5ed codex while the weaker lists have become significantly stronger, especially if you are running a decurion. Necron lost a whole lot in the high strength shooting department and gained workable melee units that are not wraiths and CCB:s (which incidentally also took a massive hit, though is still good). They also gained a whole lot of durability due to a 50% army wide increase in reanimation.

What units got "wrecked"?

The only high strength shooting that was affected were Tesla Destructor units unless I'm missing something. Other ranged firepower units, like Doomsday Ark and Heavy Destroyers are significantly more capable.

Transcendant C'tans got toned down from its Lord of War status rather than being a powerhouse unit included in the regular codex.
Annihilation Barges went from being mobile, cheap to mediocre to bad with the price increase and added tesla nerfs.
Harbringers of Destruction and their 36" s8 ap2 shooting got removed.
Scarabs became more expensive and no longer eat vehicles for dinner.
Destroyer Lords can no longer accompany the fast CC units. They are still not all that bad, but Wraiths can no longer be turned into quite the same killing machines as before, even they can tarpit things extremely well and also go toe to toe with a lot of CC units.
Mindshackle Scarabs can no longer be used as a way to get a chance against strong Monstruous Creatures.
Command Barges can no longer sweep attack (You could pretty much take down a flyer a turn with it before) and the barge itself do no longer get an invulnerability save and its rider cannot get a 2+ armor save.

I dunno if I'd consider the Tranny C'tan in there, it wasn't strictly part of the older codex, existed only for a little over a year, and was only considered available in "normal" play for a few months.

As for the Cryptek, I'll grant they lost a lot of utility, the bigger issue with them I think is that they don't have much of a place in a Decurion (though they do in a CAD).

Ratflinger wrote:


Transcendant C'tans got toned down from its Lord of War status rather than being a powerhouse unit included in the regular codex.
Annihilation Barges went from being mobile, cheap to mediocre to bad with the price increase and added tesla nerfs.
Harbringers of Destruction and their 36" s8 ap2 shooting got removed.
Scarabs became more expensive and no longer eat vehicles for dinner.
Destroyer Lords can no longer accompany the fast CC units. They are still not all that bad, but Wraiths can no longer be turned into quite the same killing machines as before, even they can tarpit things extremely well and also go toe to toe with a lot of CC units.
Mindshackle Scarabs can no longer be used as a way to get a chance against strong Monstruous Creatures.
Command Barges can no longer sweep attack (You could pretty much take down a flyer a turn with it before) and the barge itself do no longer get an invulnerability save and its rider cannot get a 2+ armor save.

Very few of these are "wreckings". Scarabs are still very effective against vehicles (5 or 6 bases will still destroy most vehicles in the game in a single round of combat), Destroyer Lords got access to Invul saves and can still be made to work with Wraiths (congo-lining for a turn or two is relatively easy, seen it done probably three or four times). Most of the rest were largely justifiable changes, particularly the CCB and MSS nerfs.

Ratflinger wrote:
and the barge itself do no longer get an invulnerability save.

Debatably that didn't work that way, but anyway.

 Vaktathi wrote:
As for the Cryptek, I'll grant they lost a lot of utility, the bigger issue with them I think is that they don't have much of a place in a Decurion (though they do in a CAD).

Right...our Crypteks basically became old school Lords with an Invul buff upgrade. Our Lords became shelf-material. And old school Crypteks are a fond memory.

There's really no reason to run Crypteks in a Decurion at all, unless you want the Invul. But with the Lord plus Overlord tax, plus the Chronometrons, that's a huge, huge points investment for a unit or two with a 5++

I have a list written up that's a CAD with two Invulteks buffing 2 Warrior squads, and no other RP units, just vehicle formations. I will play it someday, but that's a lot of point sink on the Crypteks even wihout the Royal Court taxes.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
and the barge itself do no longer get an invulnerability save.

Debatably that didn't work that way, but anyway.

Yes, very true. It worked like that RAW, but I think at least the Swedish FAQ ruled against the RAW interpretation. I know I at least did not play it with a 3++ on the barge.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
As for the Cryptek, I'll grant they lost a lot of utility, the bigger issue with them I think is that they don't have much of a place in a Decurion (though they do in a CAD).

Right...our Crypteks basically became old school Lords with an Invul buff upgrade. Our Lords became shelf-material. And old school Crypteks are a fond memory.

There's really no reason to run Crypteks in a Decurion at all, unless you want the Invul.

That's probably a fair assesment I'd say, though aside from putting basic Lords in Warrior squads to pile out of Ghost Arks as assault units, I don't think I ever saw basic Lords used in the old book anyway.

 Vaktathi wrote:

There's really no reason to run Crypteks in a Decurion at all, unless you want the Invul. That's probably a fair assesment I'd say, though aside from putting basic Lords in Warrior squads to pile out of Ghost Arks as assault units, I don't think I ever saw basic Lords used in the old book anyway.

I used to run a Lord with my unit of Destrukteks to help them with their EL rolls. I'm still not over losing that unit, because its not like it was OP or anything (and I also spent a good bit of effort converting a unit that is now useless)

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's probably a fair assesment I'd say, though aside from putting basic Lords in Warrior squads to pile out of Ghost Arks as assault units, I don't think I ever saw basic Lords used in the old book anyway.

I used them all the time. Semp Weave, Warscythe, Orb was pretty much the standard loadout on my lists, and every Warrior and Immortal Squad had one. The 2+ was enough to tank wounds for the unit insuring I got to make RP against Heavy Shooting. The Warscythe allowed me to deal with Vehicles and most Challenges, even causing enough wounds to swing combat so I didn't break. The Orbs gave me the 4+ that I've always taken.

In order for me to get that now, I have to run a Royal Court, in a Decurion, and I still don't have access to the 2+ saves. I tried converting my old lists over, and ended up losing some cohesion to my force. I think the biggest injury was the change to courts now actually being ICs, so each one effectively made the units they were attached to worth an additional Kill Point. (Another contested rule, but off topic).

Most of the people I've spoken with actually don't have any problems with any of the units as they currently are. Online, I still see some complaints about Wraiths, but they're complaining about the same things they were before the Dex. The Decurion, is coming across as something that isn't seen as casual. And the OP was asking if there is a way to view it as acceptable in a Casual environment. The answer is yes, but it's the players responsibility.

It just sucks when I travel and people hear Decurion and shut down, but running the same list as a CAD, with the same results somehow changes the opinion of why they lost.

Ratflinger wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
and the barge itself do no longer get an invulnerability save.

Debatably that didn't work that way, but anyway.

Yes, very true. It worked like that RAW, but I think at least the Swedish FAQ ruled against the RAW interpretation. I know I at least did not play it with a 3++ on the barge.

Same here. That unit was stupid enough without the invuln. >.>


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 Akar wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's probably a fair assesment I'd say, though aside from putting basic Lords in Warrior squads to pile out of Ghost Arks as assault units, I don't think I ever saw basic Lords used in the old book anyway.

I used them all the time. Semp Weave, Warscythe, Orb was pretty much the standard loadout on my lists, and every Warrior and Immortal Squad had one. The 2+ was enough to tank wounds for the unit insuring I got to make RP against Heavy Shooting. The Warscythe allowed me to deal with Vehicles and most Challenges, even causing enough wounds to swing combat so I didn't break. The Orbs gave me the 4+ that I've always taken.

In order for me to get that now, I have to run a Royal Court, in a Decurion, and I still don't have access to the 2+ saves. I tried converting my old lists over, and ended up losing some cohesion to my force. I think the biggest injury was the change to courts now actually being ICs, so each one effectively made the units they were attached to worth an additional Kill Point. (Another contested rule, but off topic).

Yeah, I personally enjoy running Lords, now that Voidblades are free. And even then, if I don't want that, here's some extra AP3 shooting. Plus, Crypteks in my Decuron has helped immensely against Instant Death (Manticores, Grotesques, ext).

 Vaktathi wrote:
I dunno if I'd consider the Tranny C'tan in there, it wasn't strictly part of the older codex, existed only for a little over a year, and was only considered available in "normal" play for a few months.

As for the Cryptek, I'll grant they lost a lot of utility, the bigger issue with them I think is that they don't have much of a place in a Decurion (though they do in a CAD).

Ratflinger wrote:


Transcendant C'tans got toned down from its Lord of War status rather than being a powerhouse unit included in the regular codex.
Annihilation Barges went from being mobile, cheap to mediocre to bad with the price increase and added tesla nerfs.
Harbringers of Destruction and their 36" s8 ap2 shooting got removed.
Scarabs became more expensive and no longer eat vehicles for dinner.
Destroyer Lords can no longer accompany the fast CC units. They are still not all that bad, but Wraiths can no longer be turned into quite the same killing machines as before, even they can tarpit things extremely well and also go toe to toe with a lot of CC units.
Mindshackle Scarabs can no longer be used as a way to get a chance against strong Monstruous Creatures.
Command Barges can no longer sweep attack (You could pretty much take down a flyer a turn with it before) and the barge itself do no longer get an invulnerability save and its rider cannot get a 2+ armor save.

Very few of these are "wreckings". Scarabs are still very effective against vehicles (5 or 6 bases will still destroy most vehicles in the game in a single round of combat), Destroyer Lords got access to Invul saves and can still be made to work with Wraiths (congo-lining for a turn or two is relatively easy, seen it done probably three or four times). Most of the rest were largely justifiable changes, particularly the CCB and MSS nerfs.

Sure, 6 scarabs can still kill a vehicle but they will now only really be worth the investment against a land raider. They basically function like melee warriors and have little use beyond being a canoptek harvest tax. Honestly, I think the best use for them is to simply take 3 and scurry about to take unguarded objectives for cheap.

Justified or not the changes to the units are significant and removed a lot of cheesy necron stunts which does have an impact on what the army can do. Necrons do not have much in the way of s7 or s8 shooting anymore, though at least heavy destroyers may see some play. In addition Necrons only have Night Scythes to handle anti air from having 3 units that were good at it. The accumulated nerfs the annihilation barge received were over the top. At least it could have been made into a fast skimmer.

Big scary MC:s now threaten to wipe a squad of robots per turn without MSS as a deterrent. I do not get how you can think of those changes as insignificant. Some may be justified, but pretending like they do not matter seems a bit dishonest.

A casual decurion list is certainly possible.
Some of the biggest strengths of the list are it's synergy. Chances are if you take a decurion, no matter what way you build it, you probably accidentally built a strong list due to the decurion structure.

My reccomendations are C'tan and monoliths for 3 reasons.

1. Point sinks,
200 pts of meh. They will make your effective points level appropriate for the other effidient units.
2. Fluffy as hell.
C'tan are enslaved powerhouses that particularly arrogant or stupid overlords will unleash, considering the number of arrogant lords there are, they should be a pretty normal sight.
Monoliths are basically the necron drop pods, they are the first, second , third and final waves of the necron invasion. Fluffiest thing to see on the table.

And finally 3. Fun as hell.
C'tan blasting is always fun (particularly with the cards).
Monolith schenanigans are pretty fun too.


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Also I do love how fluffy the decurion is, regardless of if it sucked, I would field and expect to see it a lot.
They weren't lying, when on the intro page they called it a "fun way to build an army"

I would second the idea of bringing C'tans and Monoliths as point sinks in casual games. I think you can go with Lychguard too. An overlord surrounded by his Lychguard is defiantly a fluffy unit that I consider a bit meh, and can be used to intercept CC threats beelining for you.