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Hi Guys,

Need your feedback of the following list:

HQ

- Celestine
PTS: 135


Troops:

- Squad Alpha
5 sister w/ flamer and heavy flamer
Immolator w/ twin linked MM and Dozer blade
PTS: 140

- Squad Bravo
5 sister w/ flamer and heavy flamer
Immolator w/ twin linked MM and Dozer blade
PTS: 140

- Squad Charlie
5 sister w/ flamer and heavy flamer
Immolator w/ twin linked MM and Dozer blade
PTS: 140

- Squad Delta
5 sister w/ flamer and heavy flamer
Immolator w/ twin linked MM and Dozer blade
PTS: 140


Fast Attacks

- Dominion Squad Alpha
5 Dominions w/ 4 MG and Sister Superior veteran with Combi Melta
Immolator with Twin-Linked MM and Dozer blade
PTS: 195

- Dominion Squad Bravo
5 Dominions w/ 4 MG and Sister Superior veteran with Combi Melta
Immolator with Twin-Linked MM and Dozer blade
PTS: 195

- Seraphim Squad (Celestine Body Guards)
5 Seraphim w/ 1x2 hand-flamer
PTS: 85


Heavy Support

- Exorcist
w/ Storm Bolter (to reduce change to see its Exorcist Missile launcher destroy by 50%)
PTS: 130

- Exorcist
w/ Storm Bolter (to reduce change to see its Exorcist Missile launcher destroy by 50%)
PTS: 130

Retributor Squad
9 Retributor w/ 4 HB, 1 Simulacrum and sister veteran superior
PTS: 168

No Force Org:

- Ministorum Priest w/ Melta Bombe (goes with Dominion Alpha)
PTS: 30

- Ministorum Priest w/ Melta Bombe (goes with Dominion Bravo)
PTS: 30

- Ministorum Priest w/ Melta Bombe (goes with Conclave Alpha)
PTS: 30

- Ministorum Priest w/ Melta Bombe (goes with Conclave Bravo)
PTS: 30

- Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave Alpha
3 DCA and 2 Crusader
Immolator w/ Twin-linked MM and Dozer blades
PTS: 140

- Ecclesiarchy Battle Conclave Bravo
3 DCA and 2 Crusader
Immolator w/ Twin-linked MM and Dozer blades
PTS: 140

Total 1998

Thank you for your feed back.

Couple days late, but oh well. I'm not a competitive player but I tend to win more than I lose, and AS is my main army (and the only that I personally own, though I have access to orks and Space Wolves).

I'm not saying any of your choices are poor, but consider the following:

Celestine is a squishy warlord. T3 and no EW means she'll die easily, and you've only given her a bodyguard of 5 girls. Sure she can try to get back up but only once, and whatever killed her the first time is probably still close by. Your entire army is in vehicles so if I was against you, those 6 ladies would be my primary target with anything that has a Bolter. Volume of dice still gets through 2+ saves.

Your troops are in Immolators which means no fire points, and heavy flamers can't be fired if the squad has moved. You're paying for an upgrade that potentially is only useful for overwatch. I run my squads with double flamers and no heavy, personally. Keeps them mobile.

The dozer blade seems wasted on the dominions. In my experience the squad and it's transport are as good as dead once they shoot their first load, so those points could go elsewhere. Unless you plan on running through a lot of terrain turn one, anyway.

Again, the seraphim are very small. If you're going to keep them small, at least take both double hand flamers. It's a cheap upgrade and it's just too good to pass up.

You're paying points on the exorcist to avoid something that is actually fairly rare. I've never had my launcher destroyed except a single game, and the Weapon Destroyed result was the last hull point anyway. It's a 1/6 chance after a penetrating hit. It happens, but I'd use the points elsewhere. I like dozer blades on them since I always want them in cover, which usually is in terrain.

I don't like retributors, personally. They're the same role as an exorcist but you pay more points for a non-random amount of weaker shots (with the heavy bolters), except they can't reliably move and shoot. Personal preference here though, it's all just supporting fire anyway.

I'd keep the priests out of the dominion squads. Again, those girls are usually dead pretty quick in my experience. They're usually the closest to the fray, and they'll almost never live the extra turn to get a charge off. I'd consider dropping those two priests plus the melta bombs from the remaining two and getting 4 more seraphim plus the other double hand flamers. You have 8 multimeltas running around plus two dominion squads with meltas, not to mention the exorcists. I don't think you need the extra anti-tank from the bombs and the conclaves are probably better used against infantry anyway.

I've got nothing for the conclaves, I've never used them. Nothing against them, just don't fit the flavor of my army. I don't use priests either, though, so there's that.

Those are my thoughts, take them or leave them. I know it was long but nobody else had commented, and I hate to leave sisters hanging.

Consider allying in the dark Angels librarium conclave. For 400 point you get 5 power dice, 5 master levels, and 3ic's

They are all power armor and can buy jump packs or tda if needed (except Ezekiel). Plus this grants access to power field generators which means 4+ invuls for everybody!!

Thorned_Lily wrote:
Couple days late, but oh well. I'm not a competitive player but I tend to win more than I lose, and AS is my main army (and the only that I personally own, though I have access to orks and Space Wolves).

I'm not saying any of your choices are poor, but consider the following:

Celestine is a squishy warlord. T3 and no EW means she'll die easily, and you've only given her a bodyguard of 5 girls. Sure she can try to get back up but only once, and whatever killed her the first time is probably still close by. Your entire army is in vehicles so if I was against you, those 6 ladies would be my primary target with anything that has a Bolter. Volume of dice still gets through 2+ saves.

Your troops are in Immolators which means no fire points, and heavy flamers can't be fired if the squad has moved. You're paying for an upgrade that potentially is only useful for overwatch. I run my squads with double flamers and no heavy, personally. Keeps them mobile.

The dozer blade seems wasted on the dominions. In my experience the squad and it's transport are as good as dead once they shoot their first load, so those points could go elsewhere. Unless you plan on running through a lot of terrain turn one, anyway.

Again, the seraphim are very small. If you're going to keep them small, at least take both double hand flamers. It's a cheap upgrade and it's just too good to pass up.

You're paying points on the exorcist to avoid something that is actually fairly rare. I've never had my launcher destroyed except a single game, and the Weapon Destroyed result was the last hull point anyway. It's a 1/6 chance after a penetrating hit. It happens, but I'd use the points elsewhere. I like dozer blades on them since I always want them in cover, which usually is in terrain.

I don't like retributors, personally. They're the same role as an exorcist but you pay more points for a non-random amount of weaker shots (with the heavy bolters), except they can't reliably move and shoot. Personal preference here though, it's all just supporting fire anyway.

I'd keep the priests out of the dominion squads. Again, those girls are usually dead pretty quick in my experience. They're usually the closest to the fray, and they'll almost never live the extra turn to get a charge off. I'd consider dropping those two priests plus the melta bombs from the remaining two and getting 4 more seraphim plus the other double hand flamers. You have 8 multimeltas running around plus two dominion squads with meltas, not to mention the exorcists. I don't think you need the extra anti-tank from the bombs and the conclaves are probably better used against infantry anyway.

I've got nothing for the conclaves, I've never used them. Nothing against them, just don't fit the flavor of my army. I don't use priests either, though, so there's that.

Those are my thoughts, take them or leave them. I know it was long but nobody else had commented, and I hate to leave sisters hanging.

Thank you again for the feed back.

First, why can't Heavy flamer be use after moving? It is an Assault type weapon.

I agree with you regarding Celestine but, beside Jacobus who has a very specific purpose, I experience the Canoness and always been disappointed. Should I run her with a Conclave formation, a rosaries, Eviserator and the Mantle?

What about if I drop 1 sister squad and run a Repentia squad with a Canoness?

I quite agree with the retributors. Shall you take 3 Exo instead?

I actually give melta bomb to all my priest in case I get charge by a walker (which happen to me several times). Not every thing happen as planed and frequently get charge (Immolator is not Assault Vehicle), and melta bomb is frequently my only answer.

Thank you so much for your feed back?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In addition, I have a match tomorrow agains Tyranid. How would you play?

You can't fire a heavy flamer after moving because it's a heavy weapon and they don't have any of the special rules like "slow and purposeful" or "relentless" that would allow them to move and shoot those weapons. I'm not a sisters player but with my salamanders I never take heavy weapons aside from on my legion of the damned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, not to be nitpicky just to be clear, the assualt type on a weapon has nothing to do with moving and then shooting. It has to do with being able to declare an assualt. So say you have a squad that hasn't moved and someone is stupid enough to move in super close but not kill the squad or assualt you, on the next turn you could shoot(with your heavy flamer because they hadn't moved in the previous turn) and then declare an assualt, assuming none of your other squad members shot weapons that wouldn't allow you to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How competitive is their nid list? What do they run? If they run flyrats or anything that uses really good cover saves you are going to be in trouble.

Epartalis wrote:
You can't fire a heavy flamer after moving because it's a heavy weapon and they don't have any of the special rules like "slow and purposeful" or "relentless" that would allow them to move and shoot those weapons. I'm not a sisters player but with my salamanders I never take heavy weapons aside from on my legion of the damned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, not to be nitpicky just to be clear, the assualt type on a weapon has nothing to do with moving and then shooting. It has to do with being able to declare an assualt. So say you have a squad that hasn't moved and someone is stupid enough to move in super close but not kill the squad or assualt you, on the next turn you could shoot(with your heavy flamer because they hadn't moved in the previous turn) and then declare an assualt, assuming none of your other squad members shot weapons that wouldn't allow you to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How competitive is their nid list? What do they run? If they run flirts or anything that uses really good cover saves you are going to be in trouble.

Nein, really, heavy flamer is heavy only in the name. I invite you to look at Space Marine and/or AS codex and will see that Heavy Flamer is an Assault 1 weapon….. like SB for instance.
As define by the rules book, models can move, shoot and charge within the same turn with Assault weapon.

I attached for you both rules for assault weapon and Heavy Flamer profiles (all from 7th edition rules book).

Any reason for all the priests? they don't add a lot to a suicide squad.

Also, any chance of Repressors? They are 100% better than a Immolator.

Lastly, why the retributors with no fort?

Oh. My. God. I've been playing Heavy Flamers wrong for years, and so has literally every person I've spoken to about them. I stand corrected, and in this case I'd keep the Heavy Flamer upgrade since it's the same as the double flamer tactic I use, except one of them is stronger lol.

As for HQ, I personally run a Canoness with Rosarius (4+ Invul) and Mantle of Ophelia (gives Eternal Warrior) as my warlord and she's literally never died. I've tried different weapon loadouts but unless you have extra points lying around for a Storm Bolter or something, most weapon upgrades seem a waste to me. I'd LOVE to take her with the Blade of Admonition, but only one relic per model for our army and the Mantle will always win for me. Some games she's not really in a fight, because I load her in an immolator with a small Battle Sister squad, but in my most recent game she was charged by Wolf Guard Terminators and the squad was completely wiped, she failed leadership and fell back with only a single wound left and I ran toward other units after rallying. She's stood up against Thunderwolf Cavalry many times (my most common opponent is Space Wolves), and even survived a Wraithknight once. That one was pure luck, but it still happened. Just use her defensively and I've never had trouble, but I use her in a squad that's the exact same as 3-6 other squads, depending on the points level, so my opponent usually won't focus her too much. I also run Celestine with a full squad of Seraphim, two double hand flamers and a Superior with plasma pistol and power sword. The superior eats challenges for me sometimes and the way my list is built I had extra points, only reason for the power sword. But since Celestine isn't my warlord I don't feel bad about throwing her into a fight where she may die (twice). I threw her unit against Logan Grimnar on his sled once, and she almost managed to kill him. Wouldn't have done that if she was my warlord since she was most likely going to die.

If you're going to run Retributors, consider putting a Canoness with them behind an Aegis Defense Line + Quadgun. The Canoness can man the quadgun pretty well with her BS5, that gives you a bit of anti-air, and the ADL gives the retributors a bit of decent cover. Personally I'd drop them for another exo or something though.

I'd still not waste the points on priests in the dominion squads, you can give a melta bomb to the superior if you're that worried about walkers but honestly they're a suicide squad anyway. As for your conclaves, again I don't use them so I can't offer any insight there. If walkers are a common thing for that squad to be hit by, I guess the meltabombs would be worth it, but personally I'd just avoid walkers altogether. Put the immolator between myself and the walker, then on my turn move the immo out of the way, squad moves up and can charge whatever I was pointing them at in the first place. I'm not much for assaulting with this army though, except with my big nasties (below).

I'd avoid repentia for competitive play. I love the idea of them, I love the lore, even love the models, but honestly that unit just gets murdered so fast it's not even funny. 6+ Invul and a single assault phase of FNP is nothing, especially when anything S6 and higher will negate your FNP. I have a squad I run sometimes for fun but they almost never make it, since I don't run any allies and so have no access to assault vehicles. Unless you're taking allies that give you access to an assault transport (Land Raiders) I'd steer clear of this unit. If you want a nasty melee squad consider Penitent Engines. People hate them because of AV11 Open-Topped, but I run a squad of 3 and they regularly take out 2-4 units per game. Either your opponent needs to deal with them before they make it up the field, or they're losing something. Just hide them behind your Immolators for the first few turns to get them across the table. You can do the same with repentia for cheaper, but you really need to dedicate so much protection I prefer the engines. Also usually I see people freaking out about my exorcists so my Penitent Engines are safe from the big guns for enough turns that they make it all the way to the other side. Besides those things look incredible, if you can keep the models together.

As to what pretre suggests with repressors, if you can use Forge World units you might consider that and/or the flyer, but I run standard and never have much issue. My local shop doesn't allow FW at tournaments because so few locals have that kind of cash, so I couldn't even if I wanted to.

I fight tyranids the way the Emperor meant us to - with loads of flamers. Tyranid lists run two ways in my experience, either lots of smaller models that need to charge you, where Wall of Death works in your favor, or lots of big monsters where your MM's will do the job. Your only real lack is anti-air, but that's how our codex works right now. I just ignore it and shoot everything on the ground, and if there's nothing on the ground to shoot at with full BS then I'll start snap-firing those twin-linked multimeltas into the sky. If they run mostly FMCs then they'll still have to land to take objectives, assuming you're not playing kill points. I've lost to lists with tons flyers a couple of times, but they're always close games because I insist on playing Maelstrom against those lists and I play the objectives. Playing kill points against flyers is playing to their advantage, and while the argument could be made that objectives are to their disadvantage, they can land and be just as effective as your list is so I don't buy that argument.

If you're going to take a fort for Rets, take a bastion.

And Celestine is always a better choice for Warlord than Canoness. If you're worried about slay the warlord, just don't roll to get her back up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Penitents are horribly overcosted. There's no situation where you would rather have PE over Exos or Rets.

I've never looked at fortifications really, the only one I've seen available to us is the ADL but that was quite a while ago. I don't like to be stationary so I wouldn't take anything either way personally, it was just a suggestion that the Canoness is good at manning stationary gun emplacements if you take one.

You only have the option to roll for Celestine at the end of the turn she died on, and only the one chance per game. If you fail the roll (or choose not to roll), the opponent has slain your warlord the same as if they kill her a second time. Unless your group plays her with last edition rules, I guess, then always take Celestine as warlord lol.

I agree that engines are expensive for what they do, but though they share a force org slot with rets and exos they perform a completely different role so it's hard to compare them. I take them because I love them, my suggestion though was that they're a great choice for a hard-hitting assault unit, if you're trying to include something for that role. The conclave is better for infantry assault, and cheaper as well. I just love penitent engines.

Edit: Correction after checking the rules to make sure I want wrong again, you roll for Celestine to get back up immediately after she dies the first time, if successful put a marker and on your next turn she's back within 1" of the marker. Either way, still once per game and it does specify that she awards Slay the Warlord if the test is failed or she dies a second time. I can only assume that choosing not to make a test is the same as failing it, that's how our shop does it.

 pretre wrote:
Any reason for all the priests? they don't add a lot to a suicide squad.

Also, any chance of Repressors? They are 100% better than a Immolator.

Lastly, why the retributors with no fort?

THe priest is a good way to provide Zealot and Smash to the squad for only 25. Nut you are right I shall remove them from the Dominion. For the battle conclave, I have no choice but keeping them.

As per the tournament rules I frequently participate in, No FW and/or fortification allowed.

Thanks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thank you all for your feed back and suggestions.

Actually, reread Celestine's rules. You only give up STw if she dies the second time or you fail the roll. If you never make the roll, you never give STW.

I did reread it when I made the edit, and couldn't find anything that states you may choose to make this AoF or not. It says it "can only be used the first time Saint Celestine is removed as a casualty", and "if successful..." While I see your point from a RaW standpoint, since it's slightly murky as to whether the test must be made or not, surely even you have to admit that denying StW by leaving her dead simply because RaW are slightly muddy and there's no FAQ would be a pretty cheesy move. Here's why I would rule that if she's dead, test or no test if she doesn't come back it's StW:

Celestine dies/removed as casualty, make a leadership test for the AoF and pass, you place a marker and she comes back at the beginning of your next turn. No StW. Dies again, StW.

Celestine dies/removed as casualty, make a leadership test for the AoF and fail, no marker is placed, StW.

Celestine dies/removed as casualty, choose not to make a leadership test for the AoF, Celestine must be removed and no marker can be placed. Warlord is slain.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just think that in this case there's no common sense answer where leaving her dead doesn't count as your warlord having been slain. Maybe it's a difference in opinion and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

It clearly says you 'may' roll.

You might disagree with the intention of the rule but the rules as written are very clear.