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I'm considering starting warmachine and Cryx seems a good fit for me, but I'd rather have more of a spell focused army than what Cryx's all in one box offers. Does anyone have advice for getting in without an all in one? Thanks in advance.

Honestly, pDenny (the battlebox caster) is pretty fantastic with her spells. And her battle box goes a long way to helping her get them out there. I usually say battlebox to start, but if you are set on starting bigger, I'd say go Battlebox+Deathjack+A unit which is a solid choice that'll see use in a lot of your lists (like Banes or Mechanithralls for example).

Hope that helps

The All-in-one is quite spell focused. You have eDenny, 2 Arc Nodes, and a Warwitch Siren.

To compliment that I would get a second caster. Any of the Asphyxious's would do nicely, or pDenny. The Withershadow Combine as well as they provide excellent support.

Cryx is a spell casting/infantry faction. The All-in-one exemplifies this perfectly. Warcasters support the infantry with spells by either debuffing the enemy or occasionally directly attacking.

And really, you're going to end up buying almost everything in the All-in-one box anyway if you choose to play cryx. You might as well save some money, and the Bane Thralls and Bane Riders are very expensive units which you will eventually get regardless. Thats not exactly what you wanted to hear, but the big box is really spell focused and is basically a total distillation of the faction in a nice package.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The All-in-one is quite spell focused. You have eDenny, 2 Arc Nodes, and a Warwitch Siren.

To compliment that I would get a second caster. Any of the Asphyxious's would do nicely, or pDenny. The Withershadow Combine as well as they provide excellent support.

Cryx is a spell casting/infantry faction. The All-in-one exemplifies this perfectly. Warcasters support the infantry with spells by either debuffing the enemy or occasionally directly attacking.

And really, you're going to end up buying almost everything in the All-in-one box anyway if you choose to play cryx. You might as well save some money, and the Bane Thralls and Bane Riders are very expensive units which you will eventually get regardless. Thats not exactly what you wanted to hear, but the big box is really spell focused and is basically a total distillation of the faction in a nice package.

The all in one box is pretty tempting. However, while Banes may be highly competitive I mostly want to start this as a break from 40k, and don't care much about being competitive.

Satixes(sp?) raiders are also fantastic, especially with pSkarre.
Soul Hunters are good.
Define your playstyle and we can narrow it down.

Thats fine, but you'll find that in WMH the difference between a competitive and a casual game is what you are playing for, not what the lists are composed of. Casual and competitive players build the same lists, they're not mutually exclusive ideas.

MWHistorian wrote:Satixes(sp?) raiders are also fantastic, especially with pSkarre.
Soul Hunters are good.
Define your playstyle and we can narrow it down.

I think, I'm looking for a more control oriented list with heavy spellcaster support and a warjack focus.

Grey Templar wrote:Thats fine, but you'll find that in WMH the difference between a competitive and a casual game is what you are playing for, not what the lists are composed of. Casual and competitive players build the same lists, they're not mutually exclusive ideas.

Huh, that's a big change from 40k.

Yeah. And even in casual PUGs tight play is important. Its always important to be precise in your measurements and movement.

Your going to love coming to warmachine from 40k. PUG are easy just ask your opponent " how many points?" It's not like 40k where you have to have a 1 hr long talk before you play just to try and make a closer game.
Just keep in mind that the game has a steep learning curve,don't expect some net list to auto win you games.
If I where you I would pick up the all in one box, it's a great buy and gets you a bunch of models your going to need

 Chute82 wrote:

Just keep in mind that the game has a steep learning curve,don't expect some net list to auto win you games.

This is an important point to make. While there are specific combos and lists which are considered standard net lists, they still require you to be knowledgeable about how to run it.

WMH lists are often like Rube-Goldberg machines, and if you don't know how to make it work it won't work for you. This is why even lists or units which are objectively of poorer overall quality(usually in a generalist sense) can occasionally shine in the hands of an expert player who has capitalized on their strengths, and experience in general is the great equalizer.

A good player with a bad list will always beat a bad player with a good list.

This emphasis on skill also results in high end competitive play having a huge variety of builds, often as many as their are players. Everyone has their own unique twist on general build ideas. And minor tweaks in list construction can have a major impact in how the list performs. You also see a lot of dark horses show up, competitive players using lesser used units they've practiced with to bring a twist that their opponents might not be able to deal with.

Sweet. Ok so here's my idea for a first list

Warwitch Denegra

The WIthershadow Combine

Iron Lich overseer
Skarlock Thrall
2 x Warwitch Sirens

2 x Deathripper
Defiler
Slayer
Reaper.
comes out to 35 points according to battlescribe. What do ya'll think?

Thats way heavy on jacks for Cryx. Especially at 35 points. You'll have major difficulty dealing with infantry.

Usually Cryx won't even run heavies and just take 2-3 Arc Nodes, outside of using Deathjack. That lets their casters cast spells to support their infantry and not have to fuel jacks.

I would heavily recommend getting the All in one. It has everything a Cryx player needs to get started.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats way heavy on jacks for Cryx. Especially at 35 points. You'll have major difficulty dealing with infantry.

Usually Cryx won't even run heavies and just take 2-3 Arc Nodes, outside of using Deathjack. That lets their casters cast spells to support their infantry and not have to fuel jacks.

I would heavily recommend getting the All in one. It has everything a Cryx player needs to get started.

Yeah, that may end up being the best/easiest way but sadly I'm allergic to easy . I will probably give up and buy the all in one box but, I like to try and build my own lists rather than have them dictated to me you know?

Your better off checking out the war room app. You can get all the cards for cryx for around $7. Also check out battle college
https://battlecollege.wikispaces.com

That will help you get a better idea what's out there

You may have your wish. The Cryx all in one army box is hard to find. Just so you know the all in one is different from the battle box.

Thanks Chute will definitely check that out.

Raven Cowl wrote:
Sweet. Ok so here's my idea for a first list

Warwitch Denegra

The WIthershadow Combine

Iron Lich overseer
Skarlock Thrall
2 x Warwitch Sirens

2 x Deathripper
Defiler
Slayer
Reaper.
comes out to 35 points according to battlescribe. What do ya'll think?

Truthfully, it is not a great list. You have waaay too many jacks and support and need at least one (2 is better) infantry units (no WSC doe snot count as a unit for this). You will simply be out numbered each game and won't have the firepower to clear out the 20+ infantry models you are going to run up against.

If you want a heavy jack at 35 points here is a list I run and have a lot of fun with:

pDenny
Nightwretch (best arcnode, IMO)
Nightwretch
Nightmare (has the power and abiities to get some work done. +stealth on a heavy is nice)
Skarlock Thrall (must have for pDenny)

Min Bane Thrall + UA (Solid unit, popular for a reason)
Max Satyxis Raiders + UA (very fast unit can slow down the enemy and cause a lot of havoc)

Warwitch Siren (great solo for the points)

If you want the WSC then you probably need to give up Nightmare at this points level. Then you might be able to grab 5 points of solos (tartarus maybe?) or another small unit.

Otherwise this list can get a lot of work done with pDenny. And most of my wins come from caster kills with Nightmare. Use the troops to clear out their troops then send in Nightmare to finish the job, preferably under feat and debuffs. Cryx usually works better with no heavies, but I have a very hard time not showing up with one. You could try to go with a cheap warjack, but I wouldn't. When you send in your heavy you want it to deal massive damage. That's why you take heavies, focused power.

The main drawback with this list is that if you are going to send in Nightmare then Denny isn't going to be casting many spells. And that is really an issue for most warmachine casters. You can't normally have lots of jacks with lots of spells unless your spells are powering up your jacks. So most casters have one, maybe two jacks. And Cryx casters often just take a couple arcnodes.

The good news with pDenny is that she can make a lot of things good with her debuffs. But she doesn't have the focus to cast spells and power jacks. If you want to go jack heavy with Cryx then you need to check out Mortenebra.

A quick point:

You said that you wanted jacks and magic, yeah?

Honestly, I would suggest Circle of Ouroboros instead. They have a bunch of magically-oriented solos and units, and they also focus a great deal on warbeasts (which are warjack equivalents, really).

While Cryx does the magic thing pretty well, they typically only take jacks as surgical instruments, for specific purposes. They don't tend to take a whole bunch of them because they're generically good.

Jacks and heavy magic casting are fairly mutually exclusive, especially with Cryx.

Your primary resource, Focus, is used to cast spells and fuel jacks to do stuff. You only have a limited amount each turn. Denny has 7 focus. So she really has to decide between fueling jacks and casting or upkeeping spells. And Cryx warcasters cast a lot of spells because they have really good spells. Thus leaving little for their jacks.

Thats why you usually only see Deathjack, or maybe another character who is good enough to trade casting a spell for giving a full focus load, and then the obligatory 2-3 bonechickens for their Arc Nodes.

Look at the caster "Motenabra'? (Spelling) she's the closest thing to a jack caster you'll get in Cryx.

Indeed, although you won't get the spell casting. Most of the time its just upkeep Spectral Steel and cast Terminal Velocity. The rest gets allocated.

Wow, thanks for all helpful advice. Let me see if I have Cryx down. light warjacks/arcnodes to deliever spells out of normal range, infintry to bog down other guys units, and Deathjack/ Warcaster etc to bring the assassination.

Basically. Except the Infantry also tend to do the heavy lifting too. Banes hit like a freight train with effectively being pow13 weapon masters, and with debuffs and buffs in play even the lowly mechanithralls can tear chunks out of stuff.

Yeah. Most of the best infantry can usually assasinate as well. Or the solos, etc. All the banes, raiders, mechthralls.

I also mentioned it another newbie post. But spells and spell casting is really not much different than regular attacks and abilities. In other games casting a spell is a much different mechanic. In WMH it isn't much different than shooting or using some other ability.

For example a warwitch can cast venom. Which is pretty much exactly like a bile thrall spraying acid. A couple rules might interact a bit differently with each one, but 99% off the time it won't matter.

So going "spell heavy" or "magic heavy" isn't really a thing normally. And all warcasters have spells.

I would not compare a Warwitch's Venom spell with a Bile Thrall's spray. But the mechanics are similar, except one is a spell and the other is a ranged attack. Which does matter.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I would not compare a Warwitch's Venom spell with a Bile Thrall's spray. But the mechanics are similar, except one is a spell and the other is a ranged attack. Which does matter.

Why not compare them? They are nearly identical except for the magic attack vs ranged attack. Which was exactly my point. In some circumstances the label matters, but when it comes to actually playing the game there is no real mechanical difference between casting an attack spell vs shooting a weapon. For non-attack spells it isn't any different than using an ability that a model might have. Every now and then you will come up to another ability that effects magic attacks or ranged attacks, but other than that they are identical.

Flip side of that is Gunmages. While they are certainly magical, in game mechanics they neither cast spells nor count as a spell caster.

My point is that in a lot of other games spell casting is much different. And in WMH it is just another mechanic. So a "spell casting" list is usually just a fluff term. Not something to build a list around. There are always exceptions to this such as Scaverous, menoth paladins, Precursor knights, etc, but those are not in every list.

Well the main reason not to compare them is Bilethralls can't hit the broadside of a barn. The Warwitch can. Thats why you never see anyone using their sprays. They're Purge-bots and nothing else really.

And being a spell vs being a ranged attack is a major difference. My main faction cares very much about that, what with having a lot of spell denial.

Raven Cowl wrote:
Wow, thanks for all helpful advice. Let me see if I have Cryx down. light warjacks/arcnodes to deliever spells out of normal range, infintry to bog down other guys units, and Deathjack/ Warcaster etc to bring the assassination.

Yes, pretty much. They are strongest when they've stripped the enemy of their ability to do what they do best, it's about control through crippling the strengths of the enemy. So out of any faction, jacks serve their purpose the least because it's arguably a waste of focus that can be going to de-buff. Cryx is very much the foil of Menoth. The jacks are usually being used in tandem with spells and/or to synchronize/maximize the army, unlke Cygnar and Khador who can use them aggressively.

I think the non-starter box caster you're looking for is actually the Witch Coven. Unfortunately they're not a starter-friendly caster by a mile, but they have tons of focus, they need a handful of arcnodes and lots of infantry to mire the opponents, and can be devastatingly effective assassins. But, like people have said, the game has a steep learning curve, and if you lose a witch early on your game is just about over, (and if you're playing more experienced players that'll be exactly what they're going to try and do). But, they're really fun, and they're exactly the kind of caster you're looking for. And they're a good follow-up to Deneghra strategy wise.

Kudos for you not just going for the obvious Cryx powerlist, and chosing something you like dude.

I would say, if you fancy running things a bit jack heavy, think about picking up this guy

https://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/Aiakos,+Scourge+of+the+Meredius

He's a jack marshall that can handle himself

The Division Of Joy wrote:

He's a jack marshall that can handle himself

He's a journeyman warcaster, NOT a jack marshall. Big difference.