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Welcome ladies and gentleman, boys and girls, children of all ages.
This is the Codex: Astra Millitarum(Imperial Guard) Balance Errata, a part of the larger 40k Balance Errata. The goal of these Balance Errata is to create a more balanced and varied 40k and can be applied to their respective codex.
Also, to anyone looking at these Balance Errata the goal was to use the lightest hand as possible using points as the primary mechanism of change. Using weapon profile changes as well as Unit Composition more sparingly. Altering model stats even more sparingly, and lastly rewriting or adding new rules only when absolutely necessary.
Note that these changes are replacements unless notates as additions or removals.
Astra Militarum Wargear List Ranged Weapons
Plasma Pistol: 7pts
Special Weapons
Plasma Gun: 10tps
Demolition Charge: 15pts
Heavy Weapons
Mortar: Free
Heavy Bolter: 5pts
Autocannon: 5pts
Missile Launcher(Frag and Krak Missiles): 10pts
May also take Flak Missiles: 5pts
Lascannon: 15pts
Special Issue Wargear
Carapace Armor: 2pts
Camo Gear: 5pts
Melee Weapons
Power Weapon: 7pts
Power Fist: 15pts
Heirlooms of Conquest
The Laurels of Command: 10pts
The Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius: 10pts
The Blade of Conquest: 15pts
The Deathmask of Ollanius: 15pts
Kurov's Aquila: 50pts
HQ Commissar Yarrick: 135pts
Special Rules: Add Stubborn
Company Command Squad
One Veteran may replace his Lasgun with a Heavy Flamer: 5pts
All Veterans(including any Veteran Weapons Team) may take any of the following... Carapace Armour: 1pt/model; Camo Gear: 1pt/model
Lord Commissar: 60pts
May replace his Bolt Pistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 7pts
Commissar: 20pts
May Replace his Bolt Pistol with one of thefollowing... Plasma Pistol: 7pts
Ministroum Priest
May take one of the following... Plasma Gun: 10pts
Enginseer: 25pts
Servitors: 8pts/model
Up to two Servitors may replace their Servo-Arm with a... Heavy Bolter: 5pts; Multi-Melta: 10pts; Plasma Cannon: 15pts
Troops Infantry Platoon
Platoon Command Squad
One Guardsman may replace his Lasgun with a Heavy Flamer: 5pts
The entire squad may take Krak Grenades: 3pts
Infantry Squad
The Sergeant may replace his close combat weapon with a Power Weapon: 7pts
The entire squad may take Krak Grenades: 5pts
Special Weapons Squad: 50pts
Unit Composition: 10 Guardsmen
The entire squad may take Krak Grenades: 5pts
The squad may take a Chimera or Taurox as a Dedicated Transport.
Veterans: 70pts
One other Veteran may replace his Lasgun with a Heavy Flamer: 5pts
The squad may take Krak Grenades: 5pts
The squad can choose any of the following doctrines... Grenadiers: 10pts; Forward Sentries: 10pts; Demolitions: 20pts
Sergeant Harker: 45pts
Dedicated Transports Taurox Prime
May replace Taurox Battle Cannon with... Twin-Linked Taurox Gatling Cannon: 5pts; Taurox Missile Launcher(Frag and Krak Missiles): 10pts; May add Flakk Missiles: 5pts
Elites Ogryns: 95pts, 30pt/model
Special Rules: Change Very Bulky to Bulky
Bullgryns: 110pts; 35pts/model
Special Rules: Change Very Bulky to Bulky
Any model may replace his Grenadier Gauntlet and Slabshield with a Power maul and Brute Shield: 5pts/model
Ratlings: 40pts; 8pts/model
Unit Composition: 5 Ratlings
May include up to five additional Ratlings: 8pts/model
Wyrdvane Psykers: 55pts; 11pts/model
Militarum Tempestus Platoon
Tempestus Scion: LD8
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad: 80pts
The Tempestor Prime may replace his Hot-Shot Laspistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 5pts
Militarum Tempestus Scions: 60pts; 11pts/model
Tempestus Scion: LD8
Tempestor: LD9
The Tempestor may replace his Hot-shot Laspistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 5pts
Up to two Tempestus Scions, per every five models, that have not been upgraded with one of the options above may replace their Hot-shot Lasgun with one item from the Special Weapons list.
Fast Attack Scout Sentinel Squadron: 30pts; 30pts/model
Any Scout Sentinel may replace its Multi-laser with one of the following... Missile Launcher(Frag and Krak Missiles): 5pts/model; May add Flakk Missiles: 5pts/model.
Armoured Sentinel Squadron
Any Armoured Sentinel may replace its Multi-laser with one of the following... Missile Launcher(Frag and Krak Missiles): 5pts/model; May add Flakk Missiles: 5pts/model.
Rough Riders: 50pts; 10pts/model
2 Wounds
The Rough Rider Sergeant may replace his Laspistol and/or Close Combat Weapon with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 7pts; Power Weapon: 7pts
Hellhound Squadron
Points:
Hellhound: 115pts
Devil Dog: 125pts
Bane Wolf: 120pts
Any model may replace its Heavy Bolter with one of the following... Multi-melta: 5pts/model
Valkyrie Squadron
Any Valkyrie may take a pair of Sponsons armed with heavy Bolters... 15pts/model
Vendetta Squadron: 130pts; 130pts/model
Wargear: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Two Hellfurry Missiles
May include up to two additional Vendettas... 130pts/model
Any Vendetta may replace two Hellfury Missiles with two Twin-Linked Lascannons.... 30pts
Any Vendetta may take a pair of Sponsons armed with Heavy Bolters... 15pts/model
Heavy Support Leman Russ Squadron
Special Rules: Add Lumbering Behemoth "When a Leman Russ fires a weapon with the Ordinance Special Rule it may fire its remaining weaponry at normal ballistic skill."
Points:
Leman Russ Battle Tank: 135pts
Leman Russ Exterminator: 110pts
Leman Russ Vanquisher: 115pts
Leman Russ Eradicator: 110pts
Leman Russ Demolisher: 150pts
Leman Russ Punisher: 135pts
Leman Russ Executioner: 155pts
Any model may take a pair of Sponsons armed with... Heavy Bolters: 15pts/model; Multi-meltas: 25pts/model; Plasma Cannons: 35pts/model
Militarum Tempestus Platoon
Tempestus Scion: LD8
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad: 80pts
The Tempestor Prime may replace his Hot-Shot Laspistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 5pts
Militarum Tempestus Scions: 60pts; 11pts/model
Tempestus Scion: LD8
Tempestor: LD9
The Tempestor may replace his Hot-shot Laspistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 5pts
Up to two Tempestus Scions, per every five models, that have not been upgraded with one of the options above may replace their Hot-shot Lasgun with one item from the Special Weapons list.
6-2-15 Fixed
Company Command Squad
One Veteran may replace his Lasgun with a Heavy Flamer: 5pts
6-4-15 Change To
Rough Riders: 50pts; 10pts/model
2 Wounds
The Rough Rider Sergeant may replace his Laspistol and/or Close Combat Weapon with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 7pts; Power Weapon: 7pts
Well, I've taken a crack at the Ole' Guard. Experienced IG players, please let me have it. I felt Exerntal balance of IG wasn't far off of the balance point I am striving for, so I really focused on Internal balance.
Keep in mind the changes in the core errata, the changes to Battle Brothers rules out just sticking a SMIC for ATSKNF etc.
So what do you like? What do you hate? What did I fix? What did I break?
AdMeck, Imperial Knights, Assassins, and the Inquisition will be inbound at some hopefully near point in the future.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/06/04 20:54:27
Well I only play MT so I can comment on those aspects of this.
I'll start by saying finally scions get a break in points, T3 4+ troops should not be marine priced.
But I will say the range increase feels off (note this is all my opinion) scions always felt like they should be the ballsy close ranged hammers. Drop in with all the fancy toys and make marines run for cover. The 24 in range to me makes them feel like guardsmen on the gunline with ap3 guns, I'd rather have something like sniper or S4 instead of more range to keep the drop in close and anhilate feel. As I said pure opinion, but I'd be more than happy with just this.
Come watch me and my friends play good games poorly on Boss Room Ahead
But I will say the range increase feels off (note this is all my opinion) scions always felt like they should be the ballsy close ranged hammers. Drop in with all the fancy toys and make marines run for cover. The 24 in range to me makes them feel like guardsmen on the gunline with ap3 guns, I'd rather have something like sniper or S4 instead of more range to keep the drop in close and anhilate feel. As I said pure opinion, but I'd be more than happy with just this.
I agree. I would be happy with a 12'' HS laspistol but I think regular rifles are right. Perhaps you should buff the Scions Ld from 7 to 8 because they are supposed to be brainwashed supersoldiers and have barely the same Ld as regular Guardsmen. (Ridiculous GW)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/29 15:04:38
Gavik Dross wrote:Well I only play MT so I can comment on those aspects of this.
I'll start by saying finally scions get a break in points, T3 4+ troops should not be marine priced.
But I will say the range increase feels off (note this is all my opinion) scions always felt like they should be the ballsy close ranged hammers. Drop in with all the fancy toys and make marines run for cover. The 24 in range to me makes them feel like guardsmen on the gunline with ap3 guns, I'd rather have something like sniper or S4 instead of more range to keep the drop in close and anhilate feel. As I said pure opinion, but I'd be more than happy with just this.
ziggurattt wrote:I second Gavik Dross' sentiment about Hotshot Lasgun/Pistol range. 18 inches just "feels" right for that weapon and the Scions.
Also, I think giving Leman Russes "Lumbering Behemoth" back is a good move.
Finally, there's a point cost I don't understand:
Company Command Squad can take 1 Heavy Flamer for 7 points.
All other references to Heavy Flamer are 5 points.
RazgrizOne wrote:
But I will say the range increase feels off (note this is all my opinion) scions always felt like they should be the ballsy close ranged hammers. Drop in with all the fancy toys and make marines run for cover. The 24 in range to me makes them feel like guardsmen on the gunline with ap3 guns, I'd rather have something like sniper or S4 instead of more range to keep the drop in close and anhilate feel. As I said pure opinion, but I'd be more than happy with just this.
I agree. I would be happy with a 12'' HS laspistol but I think regular rifles are right. Perhaps you should buff the Scions Ld from 7 to 8 because they are supposed to be brainwashed supersoldiers and have barely the same Ld as regular Guardsmen. (Ridiculous GW)
They definitely needed a bit of a points break. The range increase was a suggestion by another poster, to bring them up to more standard 40k infantry ranges, and it seemed reasonable to me. I can bring them back down a bit, maybe keep the Pistol range up.
Does LD8 feel right?
The Russes needed LB, with the Ordinance rules they just didn't function as they were intended to.
Good catch on the Heavy Flamer, I was originally thinking because they were swapping out a less powerful weapon and BS, but then changed my mind immediately at the though, just missed the first one I wrote. I'll fix that.
The biggest change I was on the fence about was +1ppm for Vets and upping the Special Weapons team up to 10 models and giving them a Chimera. I believe it is very good for internal balance, +2ppm for the ability to take Vets as a stand alone and have BS4 seems reasonable. There is also now a real choice between Special Weapon Squads(not just 36pt sniper team on an objective) vets.
Keep the feedback coming, AM are one of the few armies I have not played and all help is very much welcome.
The biggest change I was on the fence about was +1ppm for Vets and upping the Special Weapons team up to 10 models and giving them a Chimera. I believe it is very good for internal balance, +2ppm for the ability to take Vets as a stand alone and have BS4 seems reasonable. There is also now a real choice between Special Weapon Squads(not just 36pt sniper team on an objective) vets.
I don't think adding 10pts to a Vet squad would be a good idea. Scions are 70 for 5 and are fragile. So are Vets, even with Carapace Armors.
But : with regards to the fact you reduce CA prices, that can be debatable.
The biggest change I was on the fence about was +1ppm for Vets and upping the Special Weapons team up to 10 models and giving them a Chimera. I believe it is very good for internal balance, +2ppm for the ability to take Vets as a stand alone and have BS4 seems reasonable. There is also now a real choice between Special Weapon Squads(not just 36pt sniper team on an objective) vets.
I don't think adding 10pts to a Vet squad would be a good idea. Scions are 70 for 5 and are fragile. So are Vets, even with Carapace Armors.
But : with regards to the fact you reduce CA prices, that can be debatable.
I'm definitely going to bump them up to LD8, and the Tempestor to LD9.
60pts for 5x Tempestus Scions with LD8/9 in Carapace Armor and options for 2xSpecial Weapons per five models
70pts for 10xVeterans with LD7/8 in Flakk with options for 3x Special Weapons.
80pts for 10xVeterans with LD7/8 in Carapace Armor with options for 3x Heavy Weapons.
50pts for 10xSWGuardsman with LD7 in Flakk Armor with options for 3x Heavy Weapons at BS3.
That seems much more reasonable and is quite a bit more internally balanced than...
70pts for 5x Scions with LD7/8 in Carapace Armor and options for 2x Special Weapons
60pts for 10xVeterans with LD7/8 in Flakk with options for 3x Special Weapons.
75pts for 10xVeterans with LD7/8 in Carapace Armor with Options for 3xHeavy Weapons
30pts for 6xSWGuardsman with LD7 in Flakk with Options for 3x Heavy Weapons at BS3 and no Transport options.
Scions will have better LD and some special rules, but will have fewer special weapons and fewer models for a few less points. Veterans will be able to put out lots of Special Weapons fire for marginally more points. Special Weapons squads will be able to fulfill the same relative role as Vets as a lower cost, but with lower LD, lower BS, and fewer options.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 6-2-15 Removed
Hotshot Lasgun
Range: 24" Str: 3 AP: 3 Rapidfire
6-2-15 Changed To
Militarum Tempestus Platoon
Tempestus Scion: LD8
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad: 80pts
The Tempestor Prime may replace his Hot-Shot Laspistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 5pts
Militarum Tempestus Scions: 60pts; 11pts/model
Tempestus Scion: LD8
Tempestor: LD9
The Tempestor may replace his Hot-shot Laspistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 5pts
Up to two Tempestus Scions, per every five models, that have not been upgraded with one of the options above may replace their Hot-shot Lasgun with one item from the Special Weapons list.
6-2-15 Fixed
Company Command Squad
One Veteran may replace his Lasgun with a Heavy Flamer: 5pts
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/02 20:57:26
Thank god for that. Screw these things, they only reinforce paper - scissors - rock matchups and should be scoured from the face of the rules.
In the meantime a 33% price hike will do nicely
I don't know about that, but for their old cost they were ridiculously too good, way beyond anything in their league and that included things like 18pt Lobbas! Now that amazing offense comes at a cost and isn't horribly out of line with other options available. Consider the 65pts Wyvern vs 60pt Mortar Heavy Weapons team.... no comparison
Now, you'd actually have a decision to make between a 45pt Mortar Team and an 85pts Wyvern. That's definitely an improvement in internal balance and I'm pretty sure it would be externally too ie compared to the new Lobbas, ie 50pts for two. maybe not perfect, but a lot better than it was.
Thank god for that. Screw these things, they only reinforce paper - scissors - rock matchups and should be scoured from the face of the rules.
In the meantime a 33% price hike will do nicely
I don't know about that, but for their old cost they were ridiculously too good, way beyond anything in their league and that included things like 18pt Lobbas! Now that amazing offense comes at a cost and isn't horribly out of line with other options available. Consider the 65pts Wyvern vs 60pt Mortar Heavy Weapons team.... no comparison
Now, you'd actually have a decision to make between a 45pt Mortar Team and an 85pts Wyvern. That's definitely an improvement in internal balance and I'm pretty sure it would be externally too ie compared to the new Lobbas, ie 50pts for two. maybe not perfect, but a lot better than it was.
Hmm... I dunno. Bear in mind that when the codex first came out, it was mandatory that the player only use CAD. Meaning, picking a Wyvern came at the cost of a Heavy support slot; meaning fewer tanks, etc. Meanwhile, a HWS was often a free slot.
Thank god for that. Screw these things, they only reinforce paper - scissors - rock matchups and should be scoured from the face of the rules.
In the meantime a 33% price hike will do nicely
I don't know about that, but for their old cost they were ridiculously too good, way beyond anything in their league and that included things like 18pt Lobbas! Now that amazing offense comes at a cost and isn't horribly out of line with other options available. Consider the 65pts Wyvern vs 60pt Mortar Heavy Weapons team.... no comparison
Now, you'd actually have a decision to make between a 45pt Mortar Team and an 85pts Wyvern. That's definitely an improvement in internal balance and I'm pretty sure it would be externally too ie compared to the new Lobbas, ie 50pts for two. maybe not perfect, but a lot better than it was.
Hmm... I dunno. Bear in mind that when the codex first came out, it was mandatory that the player only use CAD. Meaning, picking a Wyvern came at the cost of a Heavy support slot; meaning fewer tanks, etc. Meanwhile, a HWS was often a free slot.
No, when the codex came out CAD was one option, unbound was another. "Slot Discounts" really can't be a major fact now as we have Unbound, MultiCad, AD, and Formations etc. Discounting something due to its FOC slot isn't going to cut it from a balance standpoint anymore.
mr. peasant wrote: Hmm... I dunno. Bear in mind that when the codex first came out, it was mandatory that the player only use CAD. Meaning, picking a Wyvern came at the cost of a Heavy support slot; meaning fewer tanks, etc. Meanwhile, a HWS was often a free slot.
No, when the codex came out CAD was one option, unbound was another. "Slot Discounts" really can't be a major fact now as we have Unbound, MultiCad, AD, and Formations etc. Discounting something due to its FOC slot isn't going to cut it from a balance standpoint anymore.
Hmm... could've sworn that Unbound was a 7th Edition addition.
Why so cheap Power Weapons? I mean 7 pts is too cheap. I propose : Power Thingmajig 10 pts Power Fist 15 pts Sergeant only has access to the first group. And I wholeheartedly agree with Ld 8 Stormtroopers, Lumbering Behemoth and 85 points Wyverns. Thhose things are Evil.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/04 19:48:39
You shouldn't be worried about the one bullet with your name on it, Boldric. You should be worried about the ones labelled "to whom it may concern"-from Blackadder goes Forth!
mr. peasant wrote: Hmm... I dunno. Bear in mind that when the codex first came out, it was mandatory that the player only use CAD. Meaning, picking a Wyvern came at the cost of a Heavy support slot; meaning fewer tanks, etc. Meanwhile, a HWS was often a free slot.
No, when the codex came out CAD was one option, unbound was another. "Slot Discounts" really can't be a major fact now as we have Unbound, MultiCad, AD, and Formations etc. Discounting something due to its FOC slot isn't going to cut it from a balance standpoint anymore.
Hmm... could've sworn that Unbound was a 7th Edition addition.
Oh, you are right, it was. But, Self Allying was allowed in 6th if I remember correctly. And I believe we started seeing formations in 6th, but am not familiar enough to know what AM were available.
Anyway, 6th was clearly a transition into 7th, I'm guessing they had most of the major changes set as they were already setting the stage for it and a super quick turn around. I think GW had planned to move away from FOC and 6th was their introduction to removing it as a mainstay.
Even so, Slot Discounts have never really been a valid reason for unbalanced units. Slotted units could have more options, but shouldn't have been given a significant advantage and the disparity between a Mortar Team and a Wyvern was terrible, even if there was a Slot discount or bonus ie being a Vehicle vs Objective secured it should never have been that huge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
konst80hummel wrote: Why so cheap Power Weapons? I mean 7 pts is too cheap.
I propose : Power Thingmajig 10 pts
Power Fist 15 pts
Sergeant only has access to the first group.
Because they are on low initiative T3 S3 models. A Powersword on a IG Sergeant at S3 I3 should not be costed at the same point as a T4 I4 Space Marine. AP3 Power Sword was overcosted for SM at 15pts, recosted to 10pts, PW on IG shouldn't be cheaper than 10pts, so I set it at 7pts.
15pts for a S6 Fist is pretty fair IMO as there are limed IG models that can field them.
I'm still tempted to drop the cost of SM Powerfists to 20pts actually...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/04 19:50:21
mr. peasant wrote: Hmm... I dunno. Bear in mind that when the codex first came out, it was mandatory that the player only use CAD. Meaning, picking a Wyvern came at the cost of a Heavy support slot; meaning fewer tanks, etc. Meanwhile, a HWS was often a free slot.
No, when the codex came out CAD was one option, unbound was another. "Slot Discounts" really can't be a major fact now as we have Unbound, MultiCad, AD, and Formations etc. Discounting something due to its FOC slot isn't going to cut it from a balance standpoint anymore.
Hmm... could've sworn that Unbound was a 7th Edition addition.
Oh, you are right, it was. But, Self Allying was allowed in 6th if I remember correctly. And I believe we started seeing formations in 6th, but am not familiar enough to know what AM were available.
Anyway, 6th was clearly a transition into 7th, I'm guessing they had most of the major changes set as they were already setting the stage for it and a super quick turn around. I think GW had planned to move away from FOC and 6th was their introduction to removing it as a mainstay.
Even so, Slot Discounts have never really been a valid reason for unbalanced units. Slotted units could have more options, but shouldn't have been given a significant advantage and the disparity between a Mortar Team and a Wyvern was terrible, even if there was a Slot discount or bonus ie being a Vehicle vs Objective secured it should never have been that huge.
Fair enough.
Back on topic:
Looking at Rough riders, I think that in addition to 9 ppm, they should be increased to 2 Wounds, to account for the horse and rider. Balance-wise, it would help them be more survivable in close combat (without making them too tough since at the end of the day, they're still T: 3).
Honestly, that is a really good idea for Rough Riders.
50pts, 10pts/model Each model has 2 Wounds
9% decrease in cost, cheaper upgrades for Sergeant, and a 2nd wound a piece. Double durability vs Small arms, same durabilty vs S6+. I think that seems like a sweet spot for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 6-4-15 Change To
Rough Riders: 50pts; 10pts/model
2 Wounds
The Rough Rider Sergeant may replace his Laspistol and/or Close Combat Weapon with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 7pts; Power Weapon: 7pts
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/04 20:54:32
If I ever meet you in person, I will buy you two drinks. The first will be for the effort you've put into this project and general demeanor.
The second will be for putting lumbering behemoth back where it belongs.
Other than that, pricing looks pretty reasonable. Kurov's Aquila still seems a little pricey to me considering its 6" range, but that's a minor quibble.
I've had a lot of ideas for rough riders, but 2W and a points cost difference is probably the simplest solution.
Have you thought about adding back the Colossus and Griffon?
Oh, and if you feel that your russ prices are appropriate, then I'd advise keeping the hellhound variants universally cheaper. I don't feel that their weapons plus being fast are a reasonable tradeoff for less armour and short range weaponry. Food for thought, but in a world where FoC restrictions are almost meaningless, there isn't much of a reason to grab a hellhound over an eradicator. If the Hellhound was cheaper, say 100pts, you might have a case. Same goes for the others, seeing as they both require being within counter charge range to be effective. Aiming for 90-105pts for the variants feels better to me, but I'm open to a discussion on the matter.
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Blacksails wrote: If I ever meet you in person, I will buy you two drinks. The first will be for the effort you've put into this project and general demeanor.
The second will be for putting lumbering behemoth back where it belongs.
Other than that, pricing looks pretty reasonable. Kurov's Aquila still seems a little pricey to me considering its 6" range, but that's a minor quibble.
I've had a lot of ideas for rough riders, but 2W and a points cost difference is probably the simplest solution.
Have you thought about adding back the Colossus and Griffon?
Oh, and if you feel that your russ prices are appropriate, then I'd advise keeping the hellhound variants universally cheaper. I don't feel that their weapons plus being fast are a reasonable tradeoff for less armour and short range weaponry. Food for thought, but in a world where FoC restrictions are almost meaningless, there isn't much of a reason to grab a hellhound over an eradicator. If the Hellhound was cheaper, say 100pts, you might have a case. Same goes for the others, seeing as they both require being within counter charge range to be effective. Aiming for 90-105pts for the variants feels better to me, but I'm open to a discussion on the matter.
Haha, thanks. Glad my work is being appreciated. Yeah, Kurov's Aquila was questionable, I guess you could build an army around it sort of, all I knew is it needed a discount.
Seemed like the best solution for Rough Riders IMO.
I don't want to add back units to the Dex. Sucks they disappeared, but I don't want to be adding units if possible.
I'll relook at how I priced them. I remember feeling they were a bit high and I priced them before I readdressed the LRs, so I'll look at them again.
Still working through your changes but another thing struck me:
I feel that the Tempestus Command Squad should have its points reduced to the 70-75 point range; the reason being two-fold. In the current codex, the point difference between the regular Scions and Command Squad is 15 points. Moreover, the Ld increase that you gave the Scions and (more importantly) Tempestors reduced the value of the Tempestor Prime's "Clarion vox-net" special rule since the other regular squads would already have Ld 9 most of the time.
Edit:
As an alternative solution, you could instead reduce the Tempestor's Leadership back to Ld 8; thereby keeping the utility of the Clarion vox-net, while still allowing the Scions to feel more "elite" and resilient than the rank-and-file troops.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/06/07 21:08:43
This is backwards. The Bane Wolf is garbage because of its short range and the Hellhound will out-kill it in virtually every situation. Unless you're giving it some rule changes to make it more powerful it should be much cheaper than the Hellhound.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
mr. peasant wrote:Still working through your changes but another thing struck me:
I feel that the Tempestus Command Squad should have its points reduced to the 70-75 point range; the reason being two-fold. In the current codex, the point difference between the regular Scions and Command Squad is 15 points. Moreover, the Ld increase that you gave the Scions and (more importantly) Tempestors reduced the value of the Tempestor Prime's "Clarion vox-net" special rule since the other regular squads would already have Ld 9 most of the time.
Edit:
As an alternative solution, you could instead reduce the Tempestor's Leadership back to Ld 8; thereby keeping the utility of the Clarion vox-net, while still allowing the Scions to feel more "elite" and resilient than the rank-and-file troops.
Good points. I'll re look at them and tweak them slightly.
Peregrine wrote:
Hellhound: 115pts
Bane Wolf: 120pts
This is backwards. The Bane Wolf is garbage because of its short range and the Hellhound will out-kill it in virtually every situation. Unless you're giving it some rule changes to make it more powerful it should be much cheaper than the Hellhound.
These are definitely on the list to be repriced already. Thanks for the feedback!
I feel as if half the range of a Hotshot Lasgun is the best idea for the pistol. Overall I believe Hotshot Lasweapons are very weak verses hordes, and would have much preferred a higher volume of shots to an AP value.
Special Issue Wargear
Carapace Armor: 2pts
Camo Gear: 5pts
Melee Weapons
Power Weapon: 7pts
Power Fist: 15pts
Heirlooms of Conquest
The Laurels of Command: 10pts
The Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius: 10pts
The Blade of Conquest: 15pts
The Deathmask of Ollanius: 15pts
Kurov's Aquila: 50pts
I believe 10 points for a plasma pistol is fair. This is close enough.
Cheaper demolition charges is a nice thing. I'm not sure how I feel about the Plasma Gun.
Special Issue Wargear looks good.
Power weapons should be 10 each, power fist is pointed nicely.
Deathmask should be higher in points, perhaps 20-25.
Cheaper camo netting is great, I would actually think about taking it for cheaper vehicles at that price. I would prefer it if it was pointed on a per vehicle basis. Auger Array has always been massively overpriced.
Zagman wrote: HQ Commissar Yarrick: 135pts
Special Rules: Add Stubborn
Lord Commissar: 60pts
May replace his Bolt Pistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 7pts
Commissar: 20pts
May Replace his Bolt Pistol with one of thefollowing... Plasma Pistol: 7pts
With how much better priests are, and how weak commissars are, a points reduction is a good idea. However the priest still seems like the better option.
Zagman wrote: The entire squad may take Krak Grenades: 5pts
Carapace Armour: 1pt/model; Camo Gear: 1pt/model
The squad can choose any of the following doctrines... Grenadiers: 10pts; Forward Sentries: 10pts; Demolitions: 20pts
Krak grenades being 0.5 points each would definitely encourage me to take them over a single melta bomb.
Carapace armour should not be so cheap. It's generally a must have option right now with the amount of AP5 around and everyone I know who takes veterans gets carapace. I would increase it to 20 points. Demolitions gives every single veteran a melta bomb and also provides a demolition charge, which can be very powerful. I'm not sure on the points cost for this. (If only there were an assault vehicle to use it with.)
Zagman wrote: Dedicated Transports
Taurox Prime
May replace Taurox Battle Cannon with... Twin-Linked Taurox Gatling Cannon: 5pts; Taurox Missile Launcher(Frag and Krak Missiles): 10pts; May add Flakk Missiles: 5pts
I don't believe the reduction in cost to the upgrades is justified at all. The cost of the upgrades is fine. However the cost of the Taurox and especially the Taurox Prime is very high, and I would look into reducing the cost of those. Perhaps compare them to an Ork Trukk.
Zagman wrote: Militarum Tempestus Platoon
Tempestus Scion: LD8
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad: 80pts
The Tempestor Prime may replace his Hot-Shot Laspistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 5pts
Militarum Tempestus Scions: 60pts; 11pts/model
Tempestus Scion: LD8
Tempestor: LD9
The Tempestor may replace his Hot-shot Laspistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 5pts
Up to two Tempestus Scions, per every five models, that have not been upgraded with one of the options above may replace their Hot-shot Lasgun with one item from the Special Weapons list.
The reduction in cost for these is desperately needed, and the cheaper plasma pistol is definitely a nice addition.So is the ability to get more special weapons, which encourages larger squads over multiple smaller "suicide" squads.
Zagman wrote: Rough Riders: 50pts; 10pts/model
2 Wounds
The Rough Rider Sergeant may replace his Laspistol and/or Close Combat Weapon with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 7pts; Power Weapon: 7pts
Giving these models 2 wounds is a great addition, as is a reduction in cost. However they also need carapace armour as standard.
Zagman wrote: Special Weapons Squad: 50pts
Unit Composition: 10 Guardsmen
The entire squad may take Krak Grenades: 5pts
The squad may take a Chimera or Taurox as a Dedicated Transport.
I would disagree with special weapons squads being 10 men, instead of 6. As that makes them basically the same as infantry squads, but instead of a sergeant and a heavy weapon option, they can have two more special weapons.
---
You haven't mentioned anything about giving the Hydra Auto Targeting again, so that it bypasses jink saves. The very recently releaded Vraks book gives this to the Renegade Hydra. I believe the previous Imperial Guard codex Hydra also had this ability.
I would be encouraged to reduce the leadership and points cost of Imperial Guard Infantry Squads. Their leadership is quite high as standard. I have played many games and my Commissar has never gotten to execute a single man. It's shameful.
I have not yet played with Valkaries or Vendettas, or Leman Russes. In fact, many of the units listed including most of the Elites, Fast Attacks and Heavy Supports I have had no experience with at all. So I won't be able to advise on those.
I haven't checked your main rulebook proposed changes yet. So please bear that in mind.
Rather than give Russes the Lumbering Behemoth rule back, maybe it would be better to change the core Heavy vehicle rule? That way you could help out other vehicles like the Monolith.
I'd maybe suggest a "A Heavy Vehicle may fire 1 other weapon at full BS when firing an Ordnance weapon. Any other weapons must be fired as per the Ordnance rules". That way you can still have a LRBT with a Lascannon/HB hull weapon but not go overboard with Plasma or Melta sponsons.
Rough Riders: 50pts; 10pts/model
2 Wounds
The Rough Rider Sergeant may replace his Laspistol and/or Close Combat Weapon with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 7pts; Power Weapon: 7pts
Carapace or option there of please. Choice to use lance would be awesome as well, but that's a pretty big change.
This seems off. I appreciate that the era of lances/haywire has altered the usefulness of AV14, but even so, not sure torrent vs nova cannon is worth 5 points, less armor and no sponson options, even if the vehicle is fast. Vanquisher also seems better than the devil dog in a lot of respects, especially with a tank commander or preferred enemy formations.
Wish-listing (The below are pretty significant changes, many are FW available, or salvaging a god-awful unit)
Honestly, I'd like to see monster hunter shells, coaxial heavy stubbers, las cannon and autocannon sponsons, and more complete tank orders, (and 4th ed doctrines...) but those are all fairly large changes
HQ
Spoiler:
Lord Commissar's LD bubble can be used for orders too.
Swap voxes to increase range of orders (infinite for clarion vox net, +12" for regular), no longer allows re-rolls. Commissar can shoot a man for order ld failure? (At odds with heavy weapons teams, but works with lord comissar/auto reliquary).
Ogryn/bullgryn bodyguard upgrades for command squads.
Split fire order changed so any squad can shoot at 2 targets with any division of models (lasguns and flamers shoot at infantry squad A, auto/lascannon teams shoot at a vehicle).
Officer of the fleet ld 8, pass the test does both +1/-1 or ld 9 does just one and/or increases efficacy of vox network? Unlocks an order that gives target unit interceptor? 20 pts if alters vox network, 10/15 if not?
Master of ordnance loses his barrage blast, gains one of the following: allows heavy weapons teams to reroll ld test for orders, gives command squad +1 order, allows orders on vehicles, unlocks a new order that grants rerolls/rending (probably too good) once per game or something.
Primaris psykers and astropaths ld 8.
Priest can buy a PW/eviscerator/flamer/melta/PFist.
2W/FNP/2+ LOS when in a unit of servitors on the tech priest. Comparing to allied in cultmech HQ choice.
Troops
Spoiler:
Heavy weapons teams need some love, especially with the advent of rapier laser batteries and admech allies. Their problems include: too few orders to go around, ld 7 with no vox, 2w t3, and high cost. There are many potential solutions and most kill multiple birds with a stone. A few ideas include: take a vox for 5, use a platoon/CCSld if in X", lord comissar's LD bubble can be used for orders, 30pts base, T4/no longer 1 model/eternal warrior.
If the platoon infantry squad takes an H. flamer, no heavy weapons team.
I don't like 10 man SWS...agreed that they need something, but I don't think that's it. Maybe 5 men with access to 4 demo charges/flamers/grenade launchers but not plasma/melta?
Hotshot volley guns for veterans, special weapons squads, command squads, maybe guardsmen?
Bolters for veterans 1 pt/model!
Platoon/company command squads lose/restric access to melta/plasma. Controversial, but keeps them for orders and crack commando stuff for MT/veterans.
Vets can buy DS/outflank/infiltrate?
5 point chimera autocannon turrets, 50 point chimeras. Can buy fast for 10.
35/50 point tauroxes/primes, OR fast tauroxes/60 point primes w/outflank (MT only).
Elites
Spoiler:
Tempestor prime would seriously enjoy senior officer (could limit it to 1 order or scions only or something) or an upgrade to that effect.
Codex MT orders? If so, access needs to be restricted. 100 rending las gun shots is no joke.
Tempestor would love to be able to swap cc/pistol for a hotshot.
Valkyries can exchange 2 hellstrike missiles for 1 pair of hellfury missiles free, may purchase a pair of hellfury missiles for 15 pts each.
Vendettas can exchange hellfury missiles and TL las cannon for a TL punisher cannon and nose heavy bolter for 30, can exchange hellfury for hellstrike missiles for free.
As mentioned, Hellhound variants all need to be cheaper. Banewolf especially.
Heavy Support
Spoiler:
Hydras gain interceptor.
LRBT: 120
LR Demolisher: 130
LR Punisher: 120
LR Executioner: 140, firing main cannon triggers only 1 gets hot roll, not 3. [25% chance every turn to take off a hull point per AM codex]
Manticore is 130
Heavy weapons platoon: 1 platoon command squad, 1-5 heavy weapons squad.
If you've made it this far thanks a bunch. Really more changes than you're going for, sorry. Was a fun set of thought-experiments though!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/09 01:11:38
Ether wrote: Swap voxes to increase range of orders (infinite for clarion vox net, +12" for regular), no longer allows re-rolls. Commissar can shoot a man for order ld failure? (At odds with heavy weapons teams, but works with lord comissar/auto reliquary).
Priest can buy a PW/eviscerator/flamer/melta/PFist.
Bolters for veterans 1 pt/model!
5 point chimera autocannon turrets, 50 point chimeras. Can buy fast for 10.
35/50 point tauroxes/primes, OR fast tauroxes/60 point primes w/outflank (MT only).
I feel as if half the range of a Hotshot Lasgun is the best idea for the pistol. Overall I believe Hotshot Lasweapons are very weak verses hordes, and would have much preferred a higher volume of shots to an AP value.
Sure, but as is they needed a bit of a boost, no? And it is forcing them to firght with weapons that have significantly less range than the majority of models in 40k.
Special Issue Wargear
Carapace Armor: 2pts
Camo Gear: 5pts
Melee Weapons
Power Weapon: 7pts
Power Fist: 15pts
Heirlooms of Conquest
The Laurels of Command: 10pts
The Tactical Auto-Reliquary of Tyberius: 10pts
The Blade of Conquest: 15pts
The Deathmask of Ollanius: 15pts
Kurov's Aquila: 50pts
I believe 10 points for a plasma pistol is fair. This is close enough.
Cheaper demolition charges is a nice thing. I'm not sure how I feel about the Plasma Gun.
Special Issue Wargear looks good.
Power weapons should be 10 each, power fist is pointed nicely.
Deathmask should be higher in points, perhaps 20-25.
Cheaper camo netting is great, I would actually think about taking it for cheaper vehicles at that price. I would prefer it if it was pointed on a per vehicle basis. Auger Array has always been massively overpriced.
Plasma weapons are in line with PA codices. 10pts for AP3 on S3 is hardly worth it, due to low Strength I gave AM a discount on both Power Swords and Power Fists.
Zagman wrote: HQ Commissar Yarrick: 135pts
Special Rules: Add Stubborn
Why would you make Yarrick cheaper?
Was he really worth the cost compared to other options??
Lord Commissar: 60pts
May replace his Bolt Pistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 7pts
Commissar: 20pts
May Replace his Bolt Pistol with one of thefollowing... Plasma Pistol: 7pts
With how much better priests are, and how weak commissars are, a points reduction is a good idea. However the priest still seems like the better option.
Sure, but it closes the gap somewhat and at least helps.
Zagman wrote: The entire squad may take Krak Grenades: 5pts
Carapace Armour: 1pt/model; Camo Gear: 1pt/model
The squad can choose any of the following doctrines... Grenadiers: 10pts; Forward Sentries: 10pts; Demolitions: 20pts
Krak grenades being 0.5 points each would definitely encourage me to take them over a single melta bomb.
Carapace armour should not be so cheap. It's generally a must have option right now with the amount of AP5 around and everyone I know who takes veterans gets carapace. I would increase it to 20 points. Demolitions gives every single veteran a melta bomb and also provides a demolition charge, which can be very powerful. I'm not sure on the points cost for this. (If only there were an assault vehicle to use it with.)
Yes, Demo can be powerful, but it is very situational without a lot of ways to utilize it. I don't think I ever saw it considered as an option at its old price point. Carapace armor is good, but not necessary when Vets are being used as cheap special weapon platforms. Added cost is added cost. Kraks are definitely priced better here.
Zagman wrote: Dedicated Transports
Taurox Prime
May replace Taurox Battle Cannon with... Twin-Linked Taurox Gatling Cannon: 5pts; Taurox Missile Launcher(Frag and Krak Missiles): 10pts; May add Flakk Missiles: 5pts
I don't believe the reduction in cost to the upgrades is justified at all. The cost of the upgrades is fine. However the cost of the Taurox and especially the Taurox Prime is very high, and I would look into reducing the cost of those. Perhaps compare them to an Ork Trukk.
Possibly.... I'll have to think about it some more and compare it to a Rhino/Razorback and to Trucks
Zagman wrote: Militarum Tempestus Platoon
Tempestus Scion: LD8
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad: 80pts
The Tempestor Prime may replace his Hot-Shot Laspistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 5pts
Militarum Tempestus Scions: 60pts; 11pts/model
Tempestus Scion: LD8
Tempestor: LD9
The Tempestor may replace his Hot-shot Laspistol with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 5pts
Up to two Tempestus Scions, per every five models, that have not been upgraded with one of the options above may replace their Hot-shot Lasgun with one item from the Special Weapons list.
The reduction in cost for these is desperately needed, and the cheaper plasma pistol is definitely a nice addition.So is the ability to get more special weapons, which encourages larger squads over multiple smaller "suicide" squads.
That was exactly my intent, it opens up other ways of fielding the unit.
Zagman wrote: Rough Riders: 50pts; 10pts/model
2 Wounds
The Rough Rider Sergeant may replace his Laspistol and/or Close Combat Weapon with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 7pts; Power Weapon: 7pts
Giving these models 2 wounds is a great addition, as is a reduction in cost. However they also need carapace armour as standard.
Arguable. I also worry about are they availableto be easily modeled in Carapace. I don't want opiotn shtey don't have access to
Zagman wrote: Special Weapons Squad: 50pts
Unit Composition: 10 Guardsmen
The entire squad may take Krak Grenades: 5pts
The squad may take a Chimera or Taurox as a Dedicated Transport.
I would disagree with special weapons squads being 10 men, instead of 6. As that makes them basically the same as infantry squads, but instead of a sergeant and a heavy weapon option, they can have two more special weapons.
Yes, and the cannot be lumped together for large squads either. Instead ofa 36pts Obsec objective Camper they have uses more uses and access to a transport. They are also Vet alternatives for Special Weapons making a Platoon more desirable.
---
You haven't mentioned anything about giving the Hydra Auto Targeting again, so that it bypasses jink saves. The very recently releaded Vraks book gives this to the Renegade Hydra. I believe the previous Imperial Guard codex Hydra also had this ability.
I would be encouraged to reduce the leadership and points cost of Imperial Guard Infantry Squads. Their leadership is quite high as standard. I have played many games and my Commissar has never gotten to execute a single man. It's shameful.
I have not yet played with Valkaries or Vendettas, or Leman Russes. In fact, many of the units listed including most of the Elites, Fast Attacks and Heavy Supports I have had no experience with at all. So I won't be able to advise on those.
I haven't checked your main rulebook proposed changes yet. So please bear that in mind.
I don't know about lowering the ld and poitns of infantry, that seems kind of like a can of worms imo. I didn't look to add more new rules, even one like Hyrda Auto Targeting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
GoonBandito wrote: Rather than give Russes the Lumbering Behemoth rule back, maybe it would be better to change the core Heavy vehicle rule? That way you could help out other vehicles like the Monolith.
I'd maybe suggest a "A Heavy Vehicle may fire 1 other weapon at full BS when firing an Ordnance weapon. Any other weapons must be fired as per the Ordnance rules". That way you can still have a LRBT with a Lascannon/HB hull weapon but not go overboard with Plasma or Melta sponsons.
I definitely considered this as a potential fix as well. It is something I am heavily thinking about as a general errata instead of a specific unit fix. And I prefer general fixes over specific ones so long as they are balanced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 20:04:27
Rough Riders: 50pts; 10pts/model
2 Wounds
The Rough Rider Sergeant may replace his Laspistol and/or Close Combat Weapon with one of the following... Plasma Pistol: 7pts; Power Weapon: 7pts
Carapace or option there of please. Choice to use lance would be awesome as well, but that's a pretty big change.
I'm hesitant to add options that previously didn't exist for unit. I think carapace would be good, but am not sure if it is something this errata should add.
This seems off. I appreciate that the era of lances/haywire has altered the usefulness of AV14, but even so, not sure torrent vs nova cannon is worth 5 points, less armor and no sponson options, even if the vehicle is fast. Vanquisher also seems better than the devil dog in a lot of respects, especially with a tank commander or preferred enemy formations.
Yes, its already on the list of things that need to be changed. I just haven't gotten around to doing it quite yet.
Wish-listing (The below are pretty significant changes, many are FW available, or salvaging a god-awful unit)
Honestly, I'd like to see monster hunter shells, coaxial heavy stubbers, las cannon and autocannon sponsons, and more complete tank orders, (and 4th ed doctrines...) but those are all fairly large changes
HQ
Spoiler:
Lord Commissar's LD bubble can be used for orders too.
Swap voxes to increase range of orders (infinite for clarion vox net, +12" for regular), no longer allows re-rolls. Commissar can shoot a man for order ld failure? (At odds with heavy weapons teams, but works with lord comissar/auto reliquary).
Ogryn/bullgryn bodyguard upgrades for command squads.
Split fire order changed so any squad can shoot at 2 targets with any division of models (lasguns and flamers shoot at infantry squad A, auto/lascannon teams shoot at a vehicle).
Officer of the fleet ld 8, pass the test does both +1/-1 or ld 9 does just one and/or increases efficacy of vox network? Unlocks an order that gives target unit interceptor? 20 pts if alters vox network, 10/15 if not?
Master of ordnance loses his barrage blast, gains one of the following: allows heavy weapons teams to reroll ld test for orders, gives command squad +1 order, allows orders on vehicles, unlocks a new order that grants rerolls/rending (probably too good) once per game or something.
Primaris psykers and astropaths ld 8.
Priest can buy a PW/eviscerator/flamer/melta/PFist.
2W/FNP/2+ LOS when in a unit of servitors on the tech priest. Comparing to allied in cultmech HQ choice.
Troops
Spoiler:
Heavy weapons teams need some love, especially with the advent of rapier laser batteries and admech allies. Their problems include: too few orders to go around, ld 7 with no vox, 2w t3, and high cost. There are many potential solutions and most kill multiple birds with a stone. A few ideas include: take a vox for 5, use a platoon/CCSld if in X", lord comissar's LD bubble can be used for orders, 30pts base, T4/no longer 1 model/eternal warrior.
If the platoon infantry squad takes an H. flamer, no heavy weapons team.
I don't like 10 man SWS...agreed that they need something, but I don't think that's it. Maybe 5 men with access to 4 demo charges/flamers/grenade launchers but not plasma/melta?
Hotshot volley guns for veterans, special weapons squads, command squads, maybe guardsmen?
Bolters for veterans 1 pt/model!
Platoon/company command squads lose/restric access to melta/plasma. Controversial, but keeps them for orders and crack commando stuff for MT/veterans.
Vets can buy DS/outflank/infiltrate?
5 point chimera autocannon turrets, 50 point chimeras. Can buy fast for 10.
35/50 point tauroxes/primes, OR fast tauroxes/60 point primes w/outflank (MT only).
Elites
Spoiler:
Tempestor prime would seriously enjoy senior officer (could limit it to 1 order or scions only or something) or an upgrade to that effect.
Codex MT orders? If so, access needs to be restricted. 100 rending las gun shots is no joke.
Tempestor would love to be able to swap cc/pistol for a hotshot.
Valkyries can exchange 2 hellstrike missiles for 1 pair of hellfury missiles free, may purchase a pair of hellfury missiles for 15 pts each.
Vendettas can exchange hellfury missiles and TL las cannon for a TL punisher cannon and nose heavy bolter for 30, can exchange hellfury for hellstrike missiles for free.
As mentioned, Hellhound variants all need to be cheaper. Banewolf especially.
Heavy Support
Spoiler:
Hydras gain interceptor.
LRBT: 120
LR Demolisher: 130
LR Punisher: 120
LR Executioner: 140, firing main cannon triggers only 1 gets hot roll, not 3. [25% chance every turn to take off a hull point per AM codex]
Manticore is 130
Heavy weapons platoon: 1 platoon command squad, 1-5 heavy weapons squad.
If you've made it this far thanks a bunch. Really more changes than you're going for, sorry. Was a fun set of thought-experiments though!
Wow, that was quite a bit. Most of these changes are beyond the scope of this Errata. I'm really trying to limit the number of things that would have to be referenced outside of list building. There are definitely some good thoughts, but a lot of it is beyond the scope of what I am trying to accomplish.
- 22nd Rhayé Storm Division : 2000points (Spetsnaz-themed IG)
- Ordo Xenos : ~700pts
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
