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Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

>> quick link to Easy E's take on Lion Rampant below <<

Spoiler:

https://ospreypublishing.com/lion-rampant-medieval-wargaming-rules

Lion Rampant is a mid-size skirmish game by Daniel Mersey published by Osprey. An army will consist of between 50 - 60 figures in units of 6 or 12. This is just an overview of the mechanics rather than a review of either the game or the book. I certainly think the book is worth the paltry sum (relative to most war gaming rule sets) for which it may be obtained. I have not played yet so I can't say whether the game is as fun in practice as it would seem to be in theory.

One way to think about game design is as a spectrum between competitive and simulative. Competitive games are obviously played to find out who wins. Competitive game design thus tends to emphasize player agency: the players have a large degree of direct control over what happens during the game. Simulative games, by contrast, are played to find out what happens. Such games tend to put mechanical obstacles between the players' intentions and how things actually play out.

Lion Rampant certainly falls toward the simulative end of this spectrum. The mechanical heart of the game is unit activation, which almost always involves rolling a target number or higher on 2d6. The target number depends on the unit type and the order given. Actions can be subdivided into two categories: ones that may be taken (orders) and ones that must be taken. The latter category includes rallying battered units and making wild charges. The former category entails what you would expect: moving, shooting, attacking, and leaders issuing challenges to each other. Significantly, there is a semi-strict order to activation: any challenges are issued first, then battered units must be rallied, then wild charges must be taken, and then orders may be given to any unactivated units. Failing an activation test on an order ends your activation phase; otherwise, your activation phase ends after you have activated all of your units. The game thus provides an interesting mix of chance and control. Some units will act independently, some will not act at all. When it comes time to give orders, the players must carefully consider their priorities with reference to the capabilities of their troops.

Combat is pretty simple. For shooting, the number of dice rolled is a matter of unit strength: 12 dice if above half starting strength and 6 if half or below. Any result at or above the unit's shoot score (usually 4+ or 5+), modified by range as necessary (-1 for long range), are hits. The number of kills is a ratio of hits to the target unit's armor. One hit kills one figure if the unit has armor 1, two hits kills one figure if the unit has armor 2, & etc. Cover increases armor by 1. Melee is much the same except attacker and defender roll simultaneously and obtain hits at their respective attack and defense scores. If either side takes casualties, that unit must make a test, 2d6 v courage score. Subtract 1 for every casualty the unit has taken during the game and another 1 if you have lost half or more of your overall forces. A leader within 12" gives you a +1. Failing normally means the unit is battered and must retreat at half its normal speed; if it is impeded by impassable terrain or other units (including friendly ones) it might suffer additional casualties. A courage test result of 0 or lower means the unit is immediately removed. If both attacker and defender pass their courage test, the side that took the most casualties moves away from the other by 3". The attacker moves back if the number of casualties is equal.

I really like the challenge mechanic. You can only do it once per game and it counts as your leader's unit's activation for that turn but it is pretty neat. Your leader must be within 12" of an enemy leader to issue a challenge. If accepted, both Leaders leave their units and meet halfway between them. Each player then rolls three dice, hitting on 5+. The leader who scores the most hits kills his opponent and immediately returns to his unit. Every unit in the retinue that has lost its leader must take a courage test. Similarly, every unit in a retinue whose leader has refused a challenge must take a courage test. With the proper timing this could be truly devastating. But in any case, it is certainly dramatic.

The "battered" mechanic is also pretty interesting. A battered unit cannot do much until it is rallied. This is another courage test, taken at the beginning of the controlling player's activation phase as described above. If they are attacked, their defense score counts as 6. If as a result of a combat, they would become battered again then they take an additional casualty instead. I don't know enough about the period to comment on the historical plausibility of this mechanic but it is pretty striking to see suppression in a medieval skirmish game.

Games last a number of turns determined by the scenario but this is usually indefinite. For example, the default end condition is that you roll a die once five or fewer units remain at play; if the result is higher than the number of units left, the game ends. Victory is also determined by scenario and is measured by points (called Glory). There are also rules for boasts, which grant a certain amount of Glory if you manage to accomplish them. For example, you can boast that you will slay the enemy leader. If your leader kills the enemy leader in a duel resulting from a challenge, you earn 3 Glory. If the enemy leader refuses your challenge and survives the battle, you earn 1 Glory. Simply routing or otherwise killing the enemy leader earns no Glory. There are a number of other boasts described in the game, which are pretty extensive but also provide a good grasp for those who want to make up other, perhaps scenario-specific boasts. Not living up to a boast, however, costs you -1 Glory.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2016/02/22 23:29:10


   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Scotland

I've got a introductory game in a few weeks, pretty excited. I'm going to build a Teutonic Knights army for it.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

I have a Hussite force for this. Good game. Very simple and flexible. I'm looking forward to Dragon Rampant in December.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

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Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

I just got my copy of this. I like the idea that a failed activation ends your turn so you have to prioritize.

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Made in ie
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!




Kildare, Ireland

 Easy E wrote:
I just got my copy of this. I like the idea that a failed activation ends your turn so you have to prioritize.


Was a mechanic Crossfire had decades ago and that too led to a very tense, and often changing, turns. When combined with their 'clock' mechanic you would sometimes watch the battle slip through your fingers as time defeated your attempts to capture objectives...

 Strombones wrote:
Battlegroup - Because its tits.
 
   
Made in gb
Dipping With Wood Stain





York, UK

I've heard complaints about the activation system that repeated bad luck on your rolls can just leave you unable to do anything.

"Do you think it is an easy task to inflate a dog?" - Cervantes

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Made in us
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Solahma






RVA

That is certainly possible. But most of the activation numbers fall squarely under the bell curve. It is always possible to roll extremely poorly in a war game, leaving you unable to accomplish anything ... I would know!

   
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Unstoppable Bloodthirster of Khorne





Melbourne .au

Big P wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
I just got my copy of this. I like the idea that a failed activation ends your turn so you have to prioritize.


Was a mechanic Crossfire had decades ago and that too led to a very tense, and often changing, turns. When combined with their 'clock' mechanic you would sometimes watch the battle slip through your fingers as time defeated your attempts to capture objectives...


Yes! Manchu's description reminded me of Crossfire (which I only played a couple of times - many, many moons ago with older WW2 gamers who were friendly enough to let me participate a little in their large-scale games at a local-ish wargaming club.) Great fun at the time, and this looks interesting as well. I'm certainly keen to read some reports following some game time.

   
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Solahma






RVA

Just ordered a pile of WotR stuff so look forward to batreps eventually.

   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest






Great overview!

I just watched an intro batrep on YouTube and I am hooked! Downloaded the rules and I hope to get a few games in before too long. Looks like a really fun game overall and I think the activation system is actually pretty cool.

I really don't like the duel mechanic though. It WILL result in the death of one of the leaders and imo is based too much on just simple roll offs. I may use the LotR system of a duel roll then rolls to wound when I play duels and give heroes a certain number of wounds equal to their armour value (or maybe 2 or 3 as standard as I suppose there should be a high chance of someone dying). If they are weakened then it makes them easier to kill later on I guess.

Otherwise not really any major quibbles (apart from a few ambiguously written rules) and I cant wait to get some games in!

"Show no mercy, show no restraint! Feel the Emperor's fury flow through your veins and let it fuel our whirlwind of gore!"

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Made in gb
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Derbyshire, UK

I think I agree on duels. They're too random. There's no real way to influence who wins. I can't imagine why you'd ever issue a challenge, unless you had the one randomly generated leader trait that gives you a bonus in duels.

Other than that I really like what I've read - not actually played yet, and the level of support its getting from the wargaming press is good too.

   
Made in us
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Solahma






RVA

TBH I think you guys are missing the point of duels in this game.

This goes back to the competitive/simulative spectrum I mentioned. Yes, you could give the players a lot of control over the outcome of duels. But that doesn't leave much room for courage and cowardice, which is I think what the challenge mechanic is really trying to capture.

   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest






True, it really does create a 'no guns, no glory' feel.

However, a leader of any military nous wouldn't rush into a fight that he has a 50% or less chance of winning, for if they died they would be dead (duh...) and leave their army leaderless.

Of course i'm sure plenty of leaders would have had the courageous approach, but i don't think it caters for a fully realistic simulation.

This is just me nitpicking though on a mechanic that can only happen once per game...

"Show no mercy, show no restraint! Feel the Emperor's fury flow through your veins and let it fuel our whirlwind of gore!"

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

pgmason wrote:
I think I agree on duels. They're too random. There's no real way to influence who wins. I can't imagine why you'd ever issue a challenge, unless you had the one randomly generated leader trait that gives you a bonus in duels.

Or if you're losing and winning the duel will win you the game.

I like the way it's difficult to 'pre-load' duels. It's all very John of Bohemia,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/10 21:29:44


Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
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RVA

 Captain Galenus wrote:
i don't think it caters for a fully realistic simulation
I don't like to debate realism but I'll make an exception here because I can't understand why it is unrealistic that two similar warriors would have similar chances of prevailing in a personal combat against one another.

George Spiggott called it "pre-loading" but I'd call it gaming a duel. It should be obvious that gaming duels is dishonorable conduct unworthy of knights. A general who only fights a battle he thinks he can win is wise. But a knight who only duels a man for whom he feels martial contempt is merely a bully and a coward.

A player who does not want his leader challenged will have to be careful -- not to say craven -- about where his own leader stays on the field. A physically courageous leader of men will fight with them rather than hanging back with his picked bodyguard. But such a man is unlikely to refuse a challenge, though it may cost him his cause and his life.


   
Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest






It's realistic in the sense that some challenges will be perfectly equal in real life. However, some won't be, and this is where I think it is lacking. Not that this is a bad thing, I hasten to add, just something that I feel can be expanded/readdressed in future iterations.

I completely agree with you that the duels add SO much more to the game, being able to outmanoeuvre the enemy's leader to make sure the cravenly ones stay out of the fight, but as humans everyone is different. It is this individuality in both nature and nurture when choosing a leader that I would like to see more of. Some players could invest in stronger heroes whilst others could just buy a bogstandard one to represent an unwilling leader with the job thrust upon him.

Just my two cents really. I am probably tainted by things like LotR, where heroes play a BIG role in every game, but it is nice to have a little bit of narrative/adventure with your cowardly/courageous leaders.

"Show no mercy, show no restraint! Feel the Emperor's fury flow through your veins and let it fuel our whirlwind of gore!"

Flesh Tearers blog:
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Sand Stained Red, a 28mm Gladiators commission build
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The Dark Lord - 2014 winner of The Hobbit 'One Last Time' Challenge 
   
Made in us
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Solahma






RVA

Leaders in Lion Rampant have a five special characteristics: (1) they are unlikely to die in normal combat until they are the last man remaining in their unit (and that has more to do with the other men in the unit than the leader); (2) they may issue challenges/fight duels; (3) they have an attribute; (4) they minimally buff friendly units' courage tests within 12"; and (5) their deaths/refusals of challenges trigger retinue-wide courage tests. But mostly, they are just another guy in a unit.

I think the dueling bit is confusing you because the leader temporarily leaves his unit, which makes him seem like one of the magical superheroes of LotR. But then it turns out he doesn't have any of their super powers at all, so that is a bit disappointing. But the issue is misidentifying the leader to begin with. He's pretty much a regular healthy human adult male, armed and trained normally for his geographic, temporal, and social location. So is his opposing number.

More importantly, the leaders and all their men share the same cultural values. It is generally shameful to refuse a challenge precisely because combat is considered to be, quite accurately, a fair trial as between knights, where after all both men should have spent the balance of all their days preparing for just such occasions. Similarly, the men fighting with them do so out of the strength of their personalities and personal wealth. They would of course stand to take their leaders' deaths or shame rather badly.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/06/11 07:49:48


   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

This does sound very interesting. My favourite kind of model count, some-but-not-too-much abstraction, good mechanics. Couple of questions:

How well would you say it scales, up and down? If it can accommodate, say, 40 minis a side, that would be handy as getting started would basically be a couple of boxes of minis.

What kind of period range does it cover?

I think I read somewhere there was a Fantasy version coming at some point, is that true? If WFB 9th doesn't turn out to be the mid-sized game it's rumoured to be, I'm certainly in the market for a Fantasy game that's bigger than LotR, smaller than KoW.

Thanks for the review!

 
   
Made in gb
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant






Lincolnshire

 Paradigm wrote:
This does sound very interesting. My favourite kind of model count, some-but-not-too-much abstraction, good mechanics. Couple of questions:

How well would you say it scales, up and down? If it can accommodate, say, 40 minis a side, that would be handy as getting started would basically be a couple of boxes of minis.

What kind of period range does it cover?

I think I read somewhere there was a Fantasy version coming at some point, is that true? If WFB 9th doesn't turn out to be the mid-sized game it's rumoured to be, I'm certainly in the market for a Fantasy game that's bigger than LotR, smaller than KoW.

Thanks for the review!


Available for download in a few places is a PDF for playing The War of the Roses, i know wargames illustrated just did some rules for dark ages as well.

As for scaling up or down you can make a force of 2 elite bowmen, 1 billmen and 6 men at arms out a single box of perry plastics and then just build on that for variation but you can play with just that, its a strong hitting but slightly fragile side due to numbers.
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

 Paradigm wrote:
This does sound very interesting. My favourite kind of model count, some-but-not-too-much abstraction, good mechanics. Couple of questions:

How well would you say it scales, up and down? If it can accommodate, say, 40 minis a side, that would be handy as getting started would basically be a couple of boxes of minis.

What kind of period range does it cover?

I think I read somewhere there was a Fantasy version coming at some point, is that true? If WFB 9th doesn't turn out to be the mid-sized game it's rumoured to be, I'm certainly in the market for a Fantasy game that's bigger than LotR, smaller than KoW.

Thanks for the review!


It is called Dragon Rampant and I believe it will be out late this summer. I am unsure if Osprey will be the publisher though.

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Solahma






RVA

Osprey will publish Dragon Rampant:

http://merseybooks.blogspot.com/2015/04/dragon-rampant-fantasy-wargaming-lion.html

   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Might just wait for that, then...

Although playing Lion might just be a good excuse to pick up some Fireforge Templars/Sergeants. Does anyone do decent hard plastic Saracen minis?

 
   
Made in us
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Solahma






RVA

Gripping Beast now make plastic Arab light and heavy cavalry. No foot yet, however.

   
Made in gb
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





UK

Cool, thanks. One last question (then I'll stop, I promise! )

Would the game work in 20mm, with or without measurement adjustments? I've scores of minis in that scale from various periods.

 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Sure it would work with 20mm. I don't think you would need to change the distances, you'll just spend more time moving.

   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

Or use a smaller table.

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Made in gb
Tinkering Tech-Priest






I think there's a rule of thumb (in the book actually) for 15/20mm scale that you keep the same value of the distances, just change the unit to centimetres. Up to you though I guess.

Also, back to the duelling... Manchu makes some good points, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll still try out the normal version though...

"Show no mercy, show no restraint! Feel the Emperor's fury flow through your veins and let it fuel our whirlwind of gore!"

Flesh Tearers blog:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/637791.page

Sand Stained Red, a 28mm Gladiators commission build
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/635637.page

The Dark Lord - 2014 winner of The Hobbit 'One Last Time' Challenge 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

 Manchu wrote:
Leaders in Lion Rampant have a five special characteristics: (1) they are unlikely to die in normal combat until they are the last man remaining in their unit (and that has more to do with the other men in the unit than the leader); (2) they may issue challenges/fight duels; (3) they have an attribute; (4) they minimally buff friendly units' courage tests within 12"; and (5) their deaths/refusals of challenges trigger retinue-wide courage tests. But mostly, they are just another guy in a unit.

This is as I understand it. I heard that Dragon Rampant (Fantasy Lion Rampant) will have a more heroic aspect to leaders.

Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

"I'm cancelling you, I'm cancelling you out of shame like my subscription to White Dwarf." - Mark Corrigan: Peep Show
 
   
Made in us
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Solahma






RVA

That seems appropriate for Dragon Rampant. There's not much in the way of knightliness, as it were, to be found in modern fantasy. Knights have been replaced by superheroes.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut



Derbyshire, UK

You know Manchu, after reading your comments about the inherent unpredicability of duels, I think I agree with you. It's a feature, not a bug. In the context of winning glory and making boasts it makes perfect sense.
   
 
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