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I like the theory that CH was meant to shut up and die quickly and would be the first casualty of a GW on an IP warpath but they held their ground better than anyone could have expected and now GW is left with a long list of targets but all their resources tied up in the CH case, trying to hold onto any shred of the pretence that their IP was as strong as GW thought.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I like the theory that CH was meant to shut up and die quickly and would be the first casualty of a GW on an IP warpath but they held their ground better than anyone could have expected and now GW is left with a long list of targets but all their resources tied up in the CH case, trying to hold onto any shred of the pretense that their IP was as strong as GW thought.

Well, after all... it is their fortress wall and moat....

The Auld Grump

To be honest, I think a lot of the lack of people stepping up was ignorance.

Weeble, you seem to know quite a bit about litigation. But I didn't even know, for instance, that there were more than two ways a Jury could call, until I read it in this thread.

I imagine that a ton of the "Internet Annonymous" would've been very willing and able to do anti-GW research, if they'd known that they could send in e-mails going all "Hey, I found this thing that might help you out" and not be interrupting with the legal proceedings.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I like the theory that CH was meant to shut up and die quickly and would be the first casualty of a GW on an IP warpath but they held their ground better than anyone could have expected and now GW is left with a long list of targets but all their resources tied up in the CH case, trying to hold onto any shred of the pretence that their IP was as strong as GW thought.

It's a very reasonable theory. GW likely shredded its annual legal budget on the CHS case, and for inexperienced litigants contentious cases like the CHS case take a severe mental and emotional toll. To people like Merrett it probably feels like CHS is a constant annoyance that refuses to go away. My guess is that nobody at GW has the will to put their neck out arguing for another potentially expensive legal battle that will require expanding the litigation department budget at a time when the company is slashing costs to the bone.

Chapterhouse Studios stopped GW in its tracks for sure. And GW has another year of appeal to look forward to. Plus there's always the possibility of remand, and of course the possibility of a big loss and an award of millions in legal fees to three different law firms on top of bills from Foley and Lardner. GW isn't Apple. It doesn't have the resources, manpower, experience, or willpower to deal with more than one lawsuit at a time.

C&Ds are easy enough, but there's much more risk now that recipients call it a bluff or prepare to fight back.

Whatever anyone feels about Chapterhouse, the company has held GW in check for three years and counting. Three years of Kickstarters and 16% growth in the market. Three years of declining sales for GW. Three years of rapid expansion on the part of GW's biggest competitors.

"The more you tighten your grip, Tark, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

I was just thinking about all the different things that have inspired GW in somewhat direct ways, even though many of the GW staff in the transcripts said they don't use outside inspiration.

Blood Bath at Ork's Drift, The Magnificent Sven, Sly Marbo, Mikael Jacson (from Terror of the Lichmaster - Inspired by Michael Jackson's hair catching on fire), Dart of Harkness by John Blanche, Knight's Panther by John Blanche.

IIRC there was also a drawing of a character from an Advanced Heroquest module in WD that was drawn from a picture of Clint Eastwood.

I know there are probably more, these are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I assume it is too late to start some sort of movement like that? Even for the appeal?

I just have the vision of like all the good old people from GW banding together. Andy Chambers, Alessio, Rick Priestly, Fat Bloke, etc. just saying how GW is full of garbage and just completely damning testimony against them, to drive the stake through their heart and topple the empire of lies. Or in 40k parlance, the 13th Black Crusade. Rick Priestly for Warmaster

Why the hell would they do this? All these guys still have friends who work at GW, regardless of their own feelings about the company. Would you attempt to put your friends out of a job... FOR JUSTICE!?

Graphite wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
I assume it is too late to start some sort of movement like that? Even for the appeal?

I just have the vision of like all the good old people from GW banding together. Andy Chambers, Alessio, Rick Priestly, Fat Bloke, etc. just saying how GW is full of garbage and just completely damning testimony against them, to drive the stake through their heart and topple the empire of lies. Or in 40k parlance, the 13th Black Crusade. Rick Priestly for Warmaster

Why the hell would they do this? All these guys still have friends who work at GW, regardless of their own feelings about the company. Would you attempt to put your friends out of a job... FOR JUSTICE!?

Except that it won't put people out of a job.

Besides, GW is doing a pretty good job of jeopardizing its own business interests by failing to understand what copyright and trademarks they actually own. See this thread for details

 prplehippo wrote:
I was just thinking about all the different things that have inspired GW in somewhat direct ways, even though many of the GW staff in the transcripts said they don't use outside inspiration.

Blood Bath at Ork's Drift, The Magnificent Sven, Sly Marbo, Mikael Jacson (from Terror of the Lichmaster - Inspired by Michael Jackson's hair catching on fire), Dart of Harkness by John Blanche, Knight's Panther by John Blanche.

IIRC there was also a drawing of a character from an Advanced Heroquest module in WD that was drawn from a picture of Clint Eastwood.

I know there are probably more, these are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

I'm now waiting for Merrett to claim that 'Sly Marbo' is a 100% original creation

 Pacific wrote:

 prplehippo wrote:
I was just thinking about all the different things that have inspired GW in somewhat direct ways, even though many of the GW staff in the transcripts said they don't use outside inspiration.

Blood Bath at Ork's Drift, The Magnificent Sven, Sly Marbo, Mikael Jacson (from Terror of the Lichmaster - Inspired by Michael Jackson's hair catching on fire), Dart of Harkness by John Blanche, Knight's Panther by John Blanche.

IIRC there was also a drawing of a character from an Advanced Heroquest module in WD that was drawn from a picture of Clint Eastwood.

I know there are probably more, these are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

I'm now waiting for Merrett to claim that 'Sly Marbo' is a 100% original creation

'Our designers never watch movies, or TV, or look at any kind of media, their subconscious is closed to outside interference'.

And still I wonder why the feth Merrett still has a job within GW. Old Boy network be damned. Merrett has helped build then dumped a gak load of litigious water on an IP house of sand. Even if investors are unaware of space mans (TM) they are pretty surely going to want to know why the legal costs have been so high the last few years - and what that money has paid for.

Aren't they?

The legal costs have been pretty well buried in the reports, I believe there was only a brief mention that they were taking action. So I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the investors don't even know about it, let alone know what it's costing.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I like the theory that CH was meant to shut up and die quickly and would be the first casualty of a GW on an IP warpath but they held their ground better than anyone could have expected and now GW is left with a long list of targets but all their resources tied up in the CH case, trying to hold onto any shred of the pretence that their IP was as strong as GW thought.

As I believe Weeble said earlier, regardless of who wins which specific points on the final appeal, there's now a back history of rulings and testimonies for any new defendant against GW to access and use. This allows any third party companies to deliberately stay within the bounds of what has already been identified as 'legal' by the courts, making it far more difficult for GW to launch legal challenges in the future.

Admittedly, that's only ironclad in the US, but if IIRC from a law course I took a long time ago, a US ruling can be presented as a form of persuasive precedent in UK courts as well.

That is correct. For example if GW decided to sue a UK company for making shoulder pads for Space Marines, the UK judge would be able to look at the Chapter House decision. It would not be binding but it would be persuasive.

What i get from the excerpts that Weeble's posted is that Alan Merrett doesn't know what he is talking about and that GW's legal support really sucks!
Normally the legal advises on what you should say, did they do any preparation except some sheets?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
What i get from the excerpts that Weeble's posted is that Alan Merrett doesn't know what he is talking about and that GW's legal support really sucks!
Normally the legal advises on what you should say, did they do any preparation except some sheets?

It's possible they tried to prep him but Merrett is so far up his own arse he didn't think he needed it, despite clearly not knowing a goddamn thing.

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Graphite wrote:

Why the hell would they do this? All these guys still have friends who work at GW, regardless of their own feelings about the company. Would you attempt to put your friends out of a job... FOR JUSTICE!?

Except that it won't put people out of a job.

Besides, GW is doing a pretty good job of jeopardizing its own business interests by failing to understand what copyright and trademarks they actually own. See this thread for details

Well, leaving aside the fact that somebody already has lost her job (and oh, my the gloating over that) the notion that there are a large number of ex-GW employees out there waiting for an opportunity to stick it to their old company is absolutely farcical. These guys still have friends at GW. Some of them still pick up bits of freelance work from GW. They generally live in Nottingham and quite likely all go to the same pubs at least. What EARTHLY incentive to they have to damage GW and make the working environment there just that little bit nastier for their mates in order to defend some random bloke from Texas who they will never meet?

JUSTICE!!!!? The opportunity to make a defining bit of case law on copyright/trademarks/stuff? Why the hell would these guys care? They're not likely to get sued because they're still in with the GW crowd.

This whole "It is Every Wargamer's Duty to assist with the Utter Destruction of the Evil Empire, Game Workshop" thing is total nonsense.

And as you've mentioned, GW seems to be doing a perfectly good job of losing this case by themselves, so we just need a comfy chair and some popcorn.

Because if GW gets away with suing CHS into oblivion, they'll start on everyone else and there is a risk that eventually the companies the ex-GW staff currently work for will be dragged through expensive legal processed over nonsense claims.

Let's face it; if GW thought they could squash Mantic they'd have tried already, but Mantic is now big enough to defend itself. I got the impression the CHS case was meant to be an easy win, which gave them some precedent to take on bigger and bigger fish.

Herzlos wrote:
Because if GW gets away with suing CHS into oblivion, they'll start on everyone else and there is a risk that eventually the companies the ex-GW staff currently work for will be dragged through expensive legal processed over nonsense claims.

Let's face it; if GW thought they could squash Mantic they'd have tried already, but Mantic is now big enough to defend itself. I got the impression the CHS case was meant to be an easy win, which gave them some precedent to take on bigger and bigger fish.

You may believe that. You may be right. Do you believe that ex-GW employees believe that?

Herzlos wrote:


Let's face it; if GW thought they could squash Mantic they'd have tried already, but Mantic is now big enough to defend itself. I got the impression the CHS case was meant to be an easy win, which gave them some precedent to take on bigger and bigger fish.

Your evidence that GW have ever considered going after Mantic?

What tenuous excuse could GW have to after Mantic in any case? As far as I'm aware Mantic have only produced items for their own Games systems. The fact that they could be used as Warhammer proxies is incidental.

GW's "justification" for pusuing Chapterhouse was because of the whole compatible with issue.

I'd like to know if GW's legal firm jumped into this thinking it was easy money from the client because Chapterhouse would fold or if they actually believed the case was legally viable.

At any stage was GW told that they were wasting money as the claims were dodgy? Even if the company was, did GW just go "IP, Moat, Fortress, Persecute, Vilify, Exterminatus"?

I have no direct evidence, but it's a fairly obvious inference based on everything GW has said and done in the public record. They went after CHS for far more than the compatible with issue (which has been confirmed as legal); they have the same objections they'd have to anyone else making anything that they feel infringes on their rights (bearing in mind they claimed to own such unique items as lizard men, halberds, shoulder pads, space elves, etc).

They've also mentioned being in conversation with other (small) companies about issues, and they haven't been using the compatible with terminology, just providing proxies and replacements.

Their annual statement also said something along the lines of being willing to pursue infringers through courts regardless of the cost, and then there's the "Spots The Space Marine" incident showing that they are more than happy to throw legal weight around even if it's completely unfounded. Even the CHS shows that; they've seemingly provided pretty much no evidence that anything CHS has been accused of actually violates anything.

Do you honestly think that GW wouldn't try and drag Mantic through the courts if they thought they could get away with it?


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Graphite wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
Because if GW gets away with suing CHS into oblivion, they'll start on everyone else and there is a risk that eventually the companies the ex-GW staff currently work for will be dragged through expensive legal processed over nonsense claims.

Let's face it; if GW thought they could squash Mantic they'd have tried already, but Mantic is now big enough to defend itself. I got the impression the CHS case was meant to be an easy win, which gave them some precedent to take on bigger and bigger fish.

You may believe that. You may be right. Do you believe that ex-GW employees believe that?

Ex-GW employees will be more aware of how GW regards competition and litigation. Maybe they are actually pretty laid back about these things and happy for competition to exist, but I've seen nothing that confirms that; it certainly contradicts how their legal department operates in public and anything that has been said by ex staffers.

The claims GW filed could have been filed against any other miniatures company, RPG publisher, or fantasy artist with a simple copy/replace.

That is the problem with the GW suit. GW claimed to own the word Halberd, and quite literally claimed a trademark on "piles of skulls." GW essentially claimed to own all of science fiction and fantasy. Seriously. Go read the complaint.

Who cares about Chapterhouse Studios? Chapterhouse Studios was merely the target of a suit that had, and still has, the potential to set very disturbing precedent for all artists in this market.

And don't you forget GW's arguments that every piece of artwork made for GW was done by employees within the scope of their employment, with zero documentation to back that up. You think that's a healthy thing for artists working freelance?

Chapterhouse Studios doesn't matter here. Why do you think a bunch of lawyers with no connection to the table top games industry, even as a gamer, spent thousands of hours and millions of dollars to defend a company facing, at best, 400K in damages? Seems a little disproportionate, right?

And why would you want anything to do with a company who would break employment laws to dismiss friends/family/acquaintances in retaliation for telling the truth? You do realize that's what you are arguing here, right?

Now, I agree that there is a practical reason to worry about that. But the mere fact that you have to worry about that says a fantastically huge amount about the integrity of Games Workshop. That you are afraid to speak up and tell the truth because the company might fire your friend if you did.

Oh, and by the way, if big names in this industry were willing to get involved, there's not much GW could do about it. What was GW going to do, give the finger to the most influential artists and creative minds in this industry? Fire their friends and spouses en masse? Sue them all? Not likely.

Games Workshop is just a comparatively big company in a small market that is rapidly losing ground. GW couldn't afford to do that.

alphaecho wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


Let's face it; if GW thought they could squash Mantic they'd have tried already, but Mantic is now big enough to defend itself. I got the impression the CHS case was meant to be an easy win, which gave them some precedent to take on bigger and bigger fish.

Your evidence that GW have ever considered going after Mantic?

I was told about 8 months ago on a second hand basis GW had a big club they wanted to swing at Mantic (ironically by someone who has just applied for a job at Mantic).

 Baragash wrote:

alphaecho wrote:

Herzlos wrote:


Let's face it; if GW thought they could squash Mantic they'd have tried already, but Mantic is now big enough to defend itself. I got the impression the CHS case was meant to be an easy win, which gave them some precedent to take on bigger and bigger fish.

Your evidence that GW have ever considered going after Mantic?

I was told about 8 months ago on a second hand basis GW had a big club they wanted to swing at Mantic (ironically by someone who has just applied for a job at Mantic).

But as a practical matter, GW can't. GW can't sue a company run by a guy who used to run the GW design studio. What is GW going to do? Have Merrett's word go up against Ronnie Renton's? lol. I don't think so. And GW couldn't weather a high profile case like that. It would induce people to take sides, and GW has too much dirty laundry it doesn't want, and can't afford to have, aired.

I'm not arguing that GW's case has any merit, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I'm not arguing that a bunch of IP lawyers stepping in to defend and define an area of IP law was the wrong thing to do, because it isn't. I'm not arguing that GW hasn't acted in a very dubious fashion, very frequently, because they have.

I'm saying that expecting a bunch of former GW designers to ride in on their midnight black steeds (because white knights only defend GW) in order to save Some Guy From Texas for no immediately obvious personal gain, potentially destroying friendships that they've had for the best part of 40 years, is utterly delusional.

Graphite wrote:
I'm not arguing that GW's case has any merit, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I'm not arguing that a bunch of IP lawyers stepping in to defend and define an area of IP law was the wrong thing to do, because it isn't. I'm not arguing that GW hasn't acted in a very dubious fashion, very frequently, because they have.

I'm saying that expecting a bunch of former GW designers to ride in on their midnight black steeds (because white knights only defend GW) in order to save Some Guy From Texas for no immediately obvious personal gain, potentially destroying friendships that they've had for the best part of 40 years, is utterly delusional.

Except that's not at all what anyone was suggesting. And if it is so delusional, how do you explain Bob Naismith and Gary Chalk?

Um, azrael13 did.

Aaanyway, I think we're arguing roughly the same thing from different angles. Nobody cares about Chapterhouse. Hence nobody got involved. If GW actually did go after Mantic, the Black Knights would descend from on high...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And both Naismith and Chalk were poked by lawyers before they got involved, IIRC, rather than just turning up to fight the good fight.

Herzlos wrote:
I have no direct evidence, but it's a fairly obvious inference based on everything GW has said and done in the public record. They went after CHS for far more than the compatible with issue (which has been confirmed as legal); they have the same objections they'd have to anyone else making anything that they feel infringes on their rights (bearing in mind they claimed to own such unique items as lizard men, halberds, shoulder pads, space elves, etc).

They've also mentioned being in conversation with other (small) companies about issues, and they haven't been using the compatible with terminology, just providing proxies and replacements.

Their annual statement also said something along the lines of being willing to pursue infringers through courts regardless of the cost, and then there's the "Spots The Space Marine" incident showing that they are more than happy to throw legal weight around even if it's completely unfounded. Even the CHS shows that; they've seemingly provided pretty much no evidence that anything CHS has been accused of actually violates anything.

Do you honestly think that GW wouldn't try and drag Mantic through the courts if they thought they could get away with it?

Fair enough points.

I don't know if Mantic were ever mentioned in the case whereas in the excerpts Weeble has highlighted Kromlech and Scibor were mentioned as being on a 'list'. The main difference being though is that Mantic produces a Game System for their figures. Does that make them bomb proof against accusations of infringing?

I do note that Victoria Lamb's regiments all now come with a fictitional background and are set within their own universe. I believe Vic may have been approached by GW, or at least was concerned that she may be approached, as the initial photos of her first Penal Troops (the Riddick looking one) mixed with IG bits were later altered to blur the GW elements.

The other manufacturers are producing figures and/ or bits with no attached rules or background hence GW's dubious justification for considering them litigation worthy.

Or, as Weeble mentions above, maybe someone at Mantic knows where GW's metaphorical hookers are buried.

Having a gaming system wouldn't really be an excuse if the trademarks were valid. If you created models that looked exactly like Space Marines, but called them Space Armymen and create a game called Wargunner 30,000, that wouldn't protect you from infringement.

All this, of course, assuming that GW's IP is valid and protectable, which seems questionable at this juncture.

Graphite wrote:

And both Naismith and Chalk were poked by lawyers before they got involved, IIRC, rather than just turning up to fight the good fight.

A) You know that how?

and

B) What's the difference? Nobody could compel that testimony. It was voluntary. How do you know Chambers, Cavetore, Priestly, Renton, etc. weren't also "poked by lawyers" but declined to testify? In other words, "poked by lawyers" means nothing. Subpoenaed and compelled to testify would mean something, but that's not what happened.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Story and background don't technically make a hill of beans difference. Those are separate works of art, and works of art are adjudicated individually, not in combination.

As Chapterhouse's lawyers argued to the Court, you cannot assert multiple works of art as some sort of Frankenstein monster of a claim.

To someone like me who is only moderately familiar with the Cadian IG, the Victoria Lamb Arcadian models look strikingly similar to Cadians, but then the GW "original" Cadians look strikingly similar to various kinds of pre-existing troops such as US Army and the Colonial Marines out of Aliens.

It is the "future soldier" concept that is so widely based and so well established that it isn't possible for any company to claim a copyright on that look and feel. (Thought that is exactly what GW try to do.)

If Lamb had said the soldiers were compatible with Imperial Guard or Astrus Milites™ GW might have come down on her. It was Chapter House using GW trademark names in association with their own products that caused the trouble there, though of course it turned out that Chapter House were right. You can legitimately use another company's trademarks if you do it the right way.

Of course it is bleeding obvious what the name "Arcadians" refers to. There is nothing GW can do about that.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
To someone like me who is only moderately familiar with the Cadian IG, the Victoria Lamb Arcadian models look strikingly similar to Cadians, but then the GW "original" Cadians look strikingly similar to various kinds of pre-existing troops such as US Army and the Colonial Marines out of Aliens.

It is the "future soldier" concept that is so widely based and so well established that it isn't possible for any company to claim a copyright on that look and feel. (Thought that is exactly what GW try to do.)

If Lamb had said the soldiers were compatible with Imperial Guard or Astrus Milites™ GW might have come down on her. It was Chapter House using GW trademark names in association with their own products that caused the trouble there, though of course it turned out that Chapter House were right. You can legitimately use another company's trademarks if you do it the right way.

Of course it is bleeding obvious what the name "Arcadians" refers to. There is nothing GW can do about that.

Sure there is. GW could argue that the mark "Arcadian" causes a likelihood of confusion.