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Dakka Veteran






Hey mates, while I am waiting for my Skyhammer Annihilation Force to come in, I have been toying with a number of list ideas and while I was browsing through some of the Imperial Armor books,noticed a few list ideas that I think could be effective and I just wanted to get your thoughts on them. To start off:

* In IA8, I across Shadow Captain Korvydae in Imperial Armor 8. Now granted it might not be the most tactically sound idea or the most competitive, but what are the thoughts of me running a pure army of Assault Marines with the Raven Guard Tactics and the Skyhammer Annihilation Force? Idea would be that the Devastator Squads and the 2x Assault Marines come in and do what they do best, while Captain Korvydae and some units of Assault Marines/Vanguard move up across the board in while the one unit f required scouts sits back and guards an objective.

* Deathwing Formation: This idea is one I had recently and as the new DA are coming out soon, this one could have a lot of potential to be a very nasty alpha strike army. Granted it would be a low model count but I still think if I am able to deploy them effectively, I should be able to get he most out of them hopefully.

* Drop Pod Army. This one makes the most sense, as it would go amazingly well with the Annihilation Force and would allow to me to utilize the most of my army. Only question I am still debating for this is which Chapter Tactic to go with, and right now it is between Salamanders, Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines (my friends say its the best one but I'm not sure on it exactly). There is also the possibility of Iron Hands to for the FNP save, however depending on what the DA Chapter Tactic could be I could go that route, or maybe even combine it with SW (particularly the Thunderwolf Cav List). Thoughts?
   
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Korvydae does not possess the Chapter Tactics rule, IIRC. That might stop you from doing some things.

The Skyhammer formation can only be used with vanilla SM. Not Deathwing.

Your third idea is compelling, but I can't imagine finding many opponents willing to play and let you delete ~40 models on turn one. Out of your options I'd recommend Imperial Fists tactics for rerolling 1s on bolt weapons.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/21 03:00:18


   
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chicagoland

 j31c3n wrote:
Korvydae does not possess the Chapter Tactics rule, IIRC. That might stop you from doing some things.

The Skyhammer formation can only be used with vanilla SM. Not Deathwing.

Your third idea is compelling, but I can't imagine finding many opponents willing to play and let you delete ~40 models on turn one. Out of your options I'd recommend Imperial Fists tactics for rerolling 1s on bolt weapons.

Does it say that it can only be used with vanilla marines? Cuz i thought formations were their own "detachment". Thus being able to take some DW and the formation.
   
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sangheili wrote:
 j31c3n wrote:
Korvydae does not possess the Chapter Tactics rule, IIRC. That might stop you from doing some things.

The Skyhammer formation can only be used with vanilla SM. Not Deathwing.

Your third idea is compelling, but I can't imagine finding many opponents willing to play and let you delete ~40 models on turn one. Out of your options I'd recommend Imperial Fists tactics for rerolling 1s on bolt weapons.

Does it say that it can only be used with vanilla marines? Cuz i thought formations were their own "detachment". Thus being able to take some DW and the formation.


Thats what I thought as well. I could run the Deathwing as my CAD, while I have the Skyhammer Annihilation Formation as an allied formation with a regular Space Marine Chapter Tactic from the Space Marine Codex. Other armies have been using formations like that so I don't see how that would be an issue with this formation. And Shadow Captain Korvydae is a Raven Guard Character so yes, he has the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic, and most people would be perfectly fine using him as his rules in IA8 state that he follows the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic rules from the Space Marine Codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/21 03:58:55


 
   
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chicagoland

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
sangheili wrote:
 j31c3n wrote:
Korvydae does not possess the Chapter Tactics rule, IIRC. That might stop you from doing some things.

The Skyhammer formation can only be used with vanilla SM. Not Deathwing.

Your third idea is compelling, but I can't imagine finding many opponents willing to play and let you delete ~40 models on turn one. Out of your options I'd recommend Imperial Fists tactics for rerolling 1s on bolt weapons.

Does it say that it can only be used with vanilla marines? Cuz i thought formations were their own "detachment". Thus being able to take some DW and the formation.


Thats what I thought as well. I could run the Deathwing as my CAD, while I have the Skyhammer Annihilation Formation as an allied formation with a regular Space Marine Chapter Tactic from the Space Marine Codex. Other armies have been using formations like that so I don't see how that would be an issue with this formation. And Shadow Captain Korvydae is a Raven Guard Character so yes, he has the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic, and most people would be perfectly fine using him as his rules in IA8 state that he follows the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic rules from the Space Marine Codex.

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An idea is to not play it. Since you know, button pushing win is not fun for anyone except waac players.
   
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Ive been out of the game a while so if i am wrong i apologize. But to ally in vanilla marines to deathwing wont you need to waste points on a Hq choice and a troop choice? adding to an already expensive formation.

You would need massive point games to get advantage of both armies and have some sort of model count on the table.

Honestly drop pod seems the way to go but as pain4pleasure said why go waac? you could easily fluffy list around this formation still pose a threat and not be a guy no one plays because you build around a formation

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Pain4Pleasure wrote:
An idea is to not play it. Since you know, button pushing win is not fun for anyone except waac players.


Just because he is taking the formation does not make him a WAAC kind of player, just because some people prefer to play each other with strong lists doesn't make them that kind of person.

in regards to which list you should pick I would vote Deathwing or Drop Pod, you can take a formation from one Codex and run it with another (could do Eldar with a Tyranid Formation if you really wanted to) because formations are considered a special kind of detachment. the fact that Dark Angels are battle brothers with Space Marines also means he will get the best benefits out of it.

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 XdeadpoolX wrote:
Ive been out of the game a while so if i am wrong i apologize. But to ally in vanilla marines to deathwing wont you need to waste points on a Hq choice and a troop choice? adding to an already expensive formation.

You would need massive point games to get advantage of both armies and have some sort of model count on the table.

Honestly drop pod seems the way to go but as pain4pleasure said why go waac? you could easily fluffy list around this formation still pose a threat and not be a guy no one plays because you build around a formation


To clarify, the main reason I took this formation is that this is literally the only formation that I can think of that actually allows Assault Marines to be viable for a change. They have always been one of my favorite units, and this is a formation where I can actually use them and not feel like I am wasting points.

As it stands j am leaning towards the Drop Pod formation with this, but I do like the idea of running the Shadow Captain so I can run a fluffy, Assault Marine list with this formation.
   
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Lost in the Warp

Since you have IA8 (hopefully 2nd ed?), consider running an Elysian Droptroops list to accompany, maybe?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/21 07:58:52


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They have not released the second edition version of IA8 yet

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 gmaleron wrote:
They have not released the second edition version of IA8 yet


Sorry, my bad, was thinking of IA3 2nd Ed, you're right.

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sangheili wrote:
 j31c3n wrote:
Korvydae does not possess the Chapter Tactics rule, IIRC. That might stop you from doing some things.

The Skyhammer formation can only be used with vanilla SM. Not Deathwing.

Your third idea is compelling, but I can't imagine finding many opponents willing to play and let you delete ~40 models on turn one. Out of your options I'd recommend Imperial Fists tactics for rerolling 1s on bolt weapons.


Does it say that it can only be used with vanilla marines? Cuz i thought formations were their own "detachment". Thus being able to take some DW and the formation.


I thought you intended to fill the Skyhammer with DA marines. You can't do that.

Korvydae does not have Chapter Tactics OR a Warlord Trait (but of course you can always roll for one). He's from a while ago. Read his rules again. I agree that most players would be willing to allow him to play as if he did have Chapter Tactics, but he technically does not, so that's merely a house rule if that's how you play it.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/21 08:57:53


   
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Earth

As a side note I'm allowing all space marines access to the skyhammer formation at our next tournament, bar space wolves at the mo till we work out how to implement it, skyclaws and long fangs seems the easiest route.

Blood angels is easy too since they actually just have those units, same with dark angels.

   
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Do you let vanilla marines access the three stormraven / tac squad formation? Dark Angels to use the first company detachment from the same book?

It clearly has the codex: space marines icon.

DA are going to be under codex marines in terms of power from what can be gleaned from the links. The best chapter tactic for drop pod armies is the Ultramarines.

Salamanders are limiting in weapon options if you want the full effect, and for the most part, you'd rather have plasma or grav weapons rather than flamers. Tigurius with a trio of cents in a pod is a terrifying thing, especially when combined with the Skyhammer.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/21 15:58:19


 
   
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Earth

 Crazyterran wrote:
Do you let vanilla marines access the three stormraven / tac squad formation? Dark Angels to use the first company detachment from the same book?

It clearly has the codex: space marines icon.

DA are going to be under codex marines in terms of power from what can be gleaned from the links. The best chapter tactic for drop pod armies is the Ultramarines.

Salamanders are limiting in weapon options if you want the full effect, and for the most part, you'd rather have plasma or grav weapons rather than flamers. Tigurius with a trio of cents in a pod is a terrifying thing, especially when combined with the Skyhammer.


Yep I'm capable of reading lol, I see the marine icon, and no were not planning on allowing the other codex marine armies access to the other codex marine formations, if anything it will help the few blood angel players to come, and here the general consensus was to allow it for all marine armies for the time being, see how it does and if it's too op after its been tested, remove it.

No different from any other tournament dude.
   
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preston

I agree with Pain4Pleasure. I know people will tell me to adapt my tactics but there is very little I can do when facing two Skyhammer formations within a DP army.
At 2000 points it will literally be me tabled, or half tabled within the first turn and as not even my AA units (Hydras) have Interceptor the whole lot will come in before I can do anything about it and do its business. Return fire might cripple a squad or two but by that point it is too late.
In all honesty I will concede to playing the Skyhammer once, purely in the name of fairness. But that is it, and any rapetastic drop pod armies can feth right off, I am not losing my one advantage because some SM player can not think of basic tactics.

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After my first game against a Skyhammer list, I'm going to go with: make sure you include non- grav weapons too. I didn't actually realize they worked only on armor saves. The guy I played against was saying the list could pretty much auto win against anything and it was so stupid, and I showed up late so I had to play him, but he brought 2x sky hammers with 3x grav 1x mm, and I brought my harlequin list...

I lost two skyweavers to the drop+assault marine turn 1 charge, and 2 clowns to the vehicle explosion.

Then everybody died, and a bunch of devs were left standing around awkwardly with guns that didn't work at all.

I'd say don't go full ham on the alpha strike, because despite what the chicken littles would have you believe there are lists the Skyhammer will fall super flat against. Daemons, Nids, orks, Dark Eldar, Harlequins and most other blobbityblob horde lists aren't gonna give a hoot about your Skyhammer grav/MM combo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 master of ordinance wrote:
I agree with Pain4Pleasure. I know people will tell me to adapt my tactics but there is very little I can do when facing two Skyhammer formations within a DP army.
At 2000 points it will literally be me tabled, or half tabled within the first turn and as not even my AA units (Hydras) have Interceptor the whole lot will come in before I can do anything about it and do its business. Return fire might cripple a squad or two but by that point it is too late.
In all honesty I will concede to playing the Skyhammer once, purely in the name of fairness. But that is it, and any rapetastic drop pod armies can feth right off, I am not losing my one advantage because some SM player can not think of basic tactics.


IG?

Inquisitor Coteaz in a blob squad will sort most of it out. Devs aren't gonna do crap against the blob and any assault squad looking for a turn 1 charge is gonna eat gak.

He's 100 points and is pretty useful in a generalist situation too. It's great having someone in an IG blob that can smack multi wound models in da mouf and he turns your anti-deepstrike insurance into a damn minefield instead of harmless bubble wrap. Plus, he's a one-man detachment. The investment is exactly one model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/21 18:48:07


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Lost in the Warp

the_scotsman wrote:

Then everybody died, and a bunch of devs were left standing around awkwardly with guns that didn't work at all.




That's pretty hilarious. What'd he do after? Charge the devs into combat?

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I had the same experience, skyhammer came down, killed half a bezerker sqaud, some cultists, then the assault marines charged in, wiped another cultists sqaud, and what was left of the first bezerker sqaud, then Got promptly eaten alive but the rest of my army, the gravs couldn't do crap against my crushers, I popped fnp for the army and hatred and ended up killed 6 units for my tithe next turn, I like skyhammer.
   
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 Formosa wrote:
I had the same experience, skyhammer came down, killed half a bezerker sqaud, some cultists, then the assault marines charged in, wiped another cultists sqaud, and what was left of the first bezerker sqaud, then Got promptly eaten alive but the rest of my army, the gravs couldn't do crap against my crushers, I popped fnp for the army and hatred and ended up killed 6 units for my tithe next turn, I like skyhammer.


Sounds like he failed target priority since he didn't go for the juggernauts first lol. That being said, at this point I am in the process of gathering units to field a Drop Pod Army, however I'm still torn on the Chapter Tactic a bit.
   
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 Enigwolf wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Then everybody died, and a bunch of devs were left standing around awkwardly with guns that didn't work at all.




That's pretty hilarious. What'd he do after? Charge the devs into combat?


Nah, he fired the bolters into the harlequins. Caused a few casualties, harlies hate bolters. He quit before I got to do my second turn because it was not really the game he wanted to play (he just wanted to show how 'unbeatably OP' Skyhammer was, all his stuff was mostly proxied).

The thing with Skyhammer everyone is neglecting is:

1) armies with Jinking vehicles or super cheap vehicles don't care about anything devs can bring

2) even with an eviscerator, Assault Marines are a points-inefficient bully unit. They might wipe cultists or a pure shooty squad but anything good at combat is just gonna go "pffft" and slaughter them. My squad of Kiss harlies took one casualty from HoR and wiped the whole squad out before the I4 step.

3) you have a 50% chance of getting turn 1, and there's plenty of defenses a good TAC list can throw up. As IG, for instance, I would bubble wrap with my Coteaz blob platoon and roll heavily into Divination to get a 4++ for my Leman Russes.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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It also depends on the list he was running with the formation. By itself, the Skyhammer Annihilation Force isn't that scary but combined with the right support it can be deadly, hence why I am most likely opting for the Drop Pod list with this as it would make a brutal Alpha Strike Army.
   
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I think a pod list would just make every game hugely unfun and over turn 1. Tbh the support Skyhammer really needs is some solid long ranged units to cut hordes and pop transports.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
I think a pod list would just make every game hugely unfun and over turn 1.


Doesn't really change the status quo, tbh.

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 Enigwolf wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
I think a pod list would just make every game hugely unfun and over turn 1.


Doesn't really change the status quo, tbh.


I can see that, but the ability to bring down basically 2x extra Drop Pods turn 1 is very nicec especially if combined with the right Chapter Tactic. While I do plan to make my own custom Chapter so I can utilize multiple lists and Codex's, I am currently debating between The Salamanders or the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics to go with this formation. Thoughts?
   
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Salamanders doesn't do much of anything for the Skyhammer. Sure you can put a couple flamer pods down but twin linked flamers rarely do that much more.

Honestly I just think you're gimping yourself power wise with a pod list. You're going to run up against a lot of lists you just can't touch.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Not sure if the OP wanted a bound army, or to stick with just SM. If you don't care I would recommend adding a couple of wyverns to the list to help deal with blobs.

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 Jaceevoke wrote:
Not sure if the OP wanted a bound army, or to stick with just SM. If you don't care I would recommend adding a couple of wyverns to the list to help deal with blobs.

Why not TFC?

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