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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 n815e wrote:
Rick, let's be honest, no attempt to insult you here.
Hindsight still doesn't support the majority of your claims, rumors or accusations. Just because, over time, PB has failed us and more people have become unhappy with this, did not make you right or excuse your behavior.
You are one of the people that created a community that, instead of being mutually supporting, is divisive and uninviting. That is not an accomplishment to be proud of.
You have certainly toned down the over-the-top conspiracies and hostility, while proving to be an enthusiastic hobbiest.
You don't get to pat yourself on the back for "being right", though.


but what it comes down to is I was right, when PB said the models had to be done that way I said no they could be done different and with just as much detail if not more and more poseability, lets face it n815e you are trying to shift the blame on me, when it was you who defended PB even though the evidence suggested you and PB were wrong and or lying, it was you that created the nasty atmosphere anyone tried asking about our stuff, it was you who defended PB and saying you were a hardcore gamer, even though you showed no evidence of your RRT minis, it was you who called those of us who saw thru PB's lies nothing but liars and jokes, and yet we were right and are still being proven right, so place the blame where it belongs on PB and you.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Innocent SDF-1 Bridge Bunny






 n815e wrote:
Oh, nonsense. It wasn't PB supporters that started making the community toxic, it started with Rick, Jorel and Merijeek making the ks comments a hostile place for everyone.



Eh, limo drivers from Canada were way more instrumental in destroying the kickstarter comments than any of those guys.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

 n815e wrote:
Oh, nonsense. It wasn't PB supporters that started making the community toxic, it started with Rick, Jorel and Merijeek making the ks comments a hostile place for everyone.



While Rick is guilty of many of the sins from a particular very bad Brad Pitt movie (and maybe even cried during wave 1 shipment "What's in the baaaaax?!?"), he didn't make the community toxic but rather just made it more toxic (as did many others including myself frankly). The root of that toxicity though is the years long stream of lies from Palladium. After Palladium was caught with their pants down a few times in a row early on (the delay in the pledge manager for months, the art contest that took a year to "judge" and had one winner instead of several, the complete lack of progress pics despite production scheduled within 40 days, etc), the trend long established in decades of RPG industry work was obvious to long time fans of the IP and THAT is when the community turned toxic and others only exacerbated what was already there. It died down for a few months after wave 1 finally arrived but Palladium yet again doubled down on stupidity, laziness, greed, and lies causing yet another outbreak of toxicity. In the end, Rick may exacerbate and revel in the toxicity but the root cause of the bad attitudes surrounding the discussion of this mostly failed project (as a whole, not just delivery of rewards) has always been Palladium.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/08/28 02:13:52


We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

That's a fairly good and accurate statement.

Bravo warboss!

We should probably now move on - and back on topic - now...

   
Made in us
Innocent SDF-1 Bridge Bunny






I really do hate how divided the community is though. You guys are supposed to be the dudes I am hanging out with while pushing miniatures around and talking about Minmei's finer points with, not looking over some imaginary line and slinging mud at.

In a lot of ways the community for this kickstarter has come to resemble the Macross/Robotech divide..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/28 02:12:05


 
   
Made in us
Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie






Yep, it is a shame.

I apologize for my part in it -- past, present and future.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

 Alpharius wrote:
That's a fairly good and accurate statement.

Bravo warboss!

We should probably now move on - and back on topic - now...


Should I have typed that in orange?

As many of us Mods here say, be the positive experience you're searching for.

Or something like that.

   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

Ha, the on-topic keeps returning to how can anything else be done to motivate PB to finish what they started.
Unfortunately, neither carrot nor stick seems to work and throwing more money at PB would carry no guarantees it goes where it is supposed to.

The comments of "Give PB a chance to make it right." tends to lead to a strong temptation to flame replies.
I think plenty of that has been given over the years.

What sticks in my craw is me being stupid and spending an extra couple hundred dollars in the backerkit on wave2 stuff after the KS closed.
If I had not done that, I could have let it go.

Working on getting Wave2 models through other means and I will pretty much have the game I wanted.
That is what the "White Knights" have been saying "Don't you want the game?".
It was a very positive thing to see Rick's models and anyone else's for that matter.

Those various 3D artists out there are awesome to give us something, seeing the shortfall and the demand.
That is another positive thing to see.

I honestly see PB as a consumer problem and any efforts to at least warn of their unethical practices is a public service.

I am quite happy to have had the opportunity to get to know the various backers ( yes even Rick ) and the curious throughout this project especially since Robotech is a bit of a niche interest.
Plus, this sucked me into the joys of International shipping so I am getting better at that.

I have said all this stuff before right?
As you were.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Innocent SDF-1 Bridge Bunny






Can anyone think of another miniature wargame that has been as dramatically impacted by 3d printing as this one?

I actually think it is kind of an interesting case study just because of the timing. When this kickstarter first launched people were still talking about 3d printing as kind of a far off thing, now I have an SLA printer (that was also a kickstarter project that started and fullfilled before this one) in my house that I can easily download and print the missing sculpts for.

I often wonder if Palladium is even truly aware of how much of the IP is out there now in 3d files or just from 3d printing outlets.
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

They have no clue what is available, or they would have thrown a dozen C&D takedowns at those folks.

There are times I wish I had the money to do the Robotech RPG/RRT license myself, but then I realize *I* would have to be the one to deal with the legal spaghetti around the IP. After the way FASA got burned, I'd rather stay out of the whole mess.

Also, speaking of FASA, I imagine Battletech has also been affected by both 3rd party miniature makers and 3D printers.

It never ends well 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





IL

I see it as things coming full circle. When I approached PB about doing Robotech I was proposing that it use 3d printed models that would be used as masters and that the production pieces would be metal. That idea was thrown out in the quest for plastics, which was a much more complicated road and even further outside their realm of experience. They had worked with metal before with Rifts miniatures back in the 90's so they had at least some limited experience in that, but producing something in plastic, dealing with china, and the logistics of production outside the US were all things they had no background in and has cost the project dearly.

They later realized (and rather painfully) some of the issues these caused and were exploring options to do metals with GHQ as a solution to righting the KS direction, which is where things should have originally started had they not been blinded by the dollar signs that plastics seemed to promised.

I find it particularly amusing as since approaching GHQ they have also been working with several of the same 3d artists I originally would have used and they are just now (finally) starting to use the same printing company that I've been using since before the idea for RRT even hit Kevin's desk (2010). One might make the case that they could have saved themselves 5 years of headache *if* they'd bothered to listen to the advice they were being handed at the beginning, but what would I know.

3D has been "the next stage" in the evolution of minis for some time, while it will never completely replace hand sculpting it has so many advantages over traditional sculpting that it's already taken over the majority of new miniature design at least for the creation of the masters (and plastic mold engineering) The last 8 years or so has been where (knowledgable) people have caught onto the potential of what 3d can offer the industry, some of the slower companies are still dragging behind but as they say; the future is now.

In the last four-five years 3d has really entrenched itself as the new backbone for miniature design. This is due largely to advances in the printing tech which make the prints more detailed than before and there have also been advances in the casting process allowing for them to use prints easier with vulcanized molds, there have also been new refinements with using 3d to create molds for plastic injection. (slide core for example) Most of these have been around for a little while bit but it's taken time for the industry to experiment with them and put them to proper use. Now that they've become a "proven" process it's largely taking over as the preferred procedure for most companies. (privateer and GW were very fast to pick up on new 3d advances for sculpting)

Now almost every miniatures kickstarter is using 3d renders to promote their game concepts and as their source for creating their master models. PB has been very far behind the curve when it comes to anything developed since 1990 and that's been the largest impact and limitation on the KS, they are very out of their element.


Because PB had no background in wargames Carmen is/was their resident "expert" when it came to wargames and he was giving Kevin some absolutely terrible advice, now he's also their "boardgame expert" so I have no faith in whatever the Rifts boardgame eventually shapes up to be. (which has been on the slow burner since at least 2009) Its a shame as I like the recently previewed miniature sculpt that Ben did but I really don't think they can handle producing anything beyond their RPGs and convention trinkets.


.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/08/28 06:11:17


Paulson Games parts are now at:
www.RedDogMinis.com 
   
Made in us
Innocent SDF-1 Bridge Bunny






All I know is that the RRT rules as written burned me on every name in the book, even Cavatore.

Regardless of intent or how deep the involvement goes, anyone that willingly put their name in that book deserves a lifelong boycott, so I completely agree with you in regards to the rift boardgame.
   
Made in us
Shocked Micronized Zentraedi Spy



Shelby Twp. Michigan

I like to say. WHAT THE HELL HAPPEN TO THIS RRT KS!! I' am sorry for the large caps I had to get it out my system. I like to know what went wrong this game. Why did ND leave after the KS? I read a post on RRT KS forum from J Baker about his thoughts what happen like ND sending out app for demo and painter for RTT during the KS but stop taking afterword. Well I think we all know that falling out between ND and PB. I think the money of this KS made PB blind with greed and push ND out. Its funning that SWR KS is not bad as I think because PB is not messing it up so far. Oh man I need blow some steam. Later
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Swabby wrote:
All I know is that the RRT rules as written burned me on every name in the book, even Cavatore.

Regardless of intent or how deep the involvement goes, anyone that willingly put their name in that book deserves a lifelong boycott, so I completely agree with you in regards to the rift boardgame.


I guess that's me too then. I think they put my name in there somewhere.

Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

DEZOAT wrote:
I like to say. WHAT THE HELL HAPPEN TO THIS RRT KS!! I' am sorry for the large caps I had to get it out my system. I like to know what went wrong this game. Why did ND leave after the KS? I read a post on RRT KS forum from J Baker about his thoughts what happen like ND sending out app for demo and painter for RTT during the KS but stop taking afterword. Well I think we all know that falling out between ND and PB. I think the money of this KS made PB blind with greed and push ND out. Its funning that SWR KS is not bad as I think because PB is not messing it up so far. Oh man I need blow some steam. Later


IIRC Alpharius updated the first post with a timeline Forar created about a month back or so.

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Swabby wrote:
Can anyone think of another miniature wargame that has been as dramatically impacted by 3d printing as this one?

I actually think it is kind of an interesting case study just because of the timing. When this kickstarter first launched people were still talking about 3d printing as kind of a far off thing, now I have an SLA printer (that was also a kickstarter project that started and fullfilled before this one) in my house that I can easily download and print the missing sculpts for.

I often wonder if Palladium is even truly aware of how much of the IP is out there now in 3d files or just from 3d printing outlets.


actually SWAT and STAW have both been effected by 3D modeling, as to the IP infringements out there HG has to pick and choose its battles well since they take a major loss here in the US they will lose control of the IP outright, and way things are shaping it up just takes a gutsy company to snake the IP away from HG (well the vehicles and such, not character designs)

 paulson games wrote:
In the last four-five years 3d has really entrenched itself as the new backbone for miniature design. This is due largely to advances in the printing tech which make the prints more detailed than before and there have also been advances in the casting process allowing for them to use prints easier with vulcanized molds, there have also been new refinements with using 3d to create molds for plastic injection. (slide core for example) Most of these have been around for a little while bit but it's taken time for the industry to experiment with them and put them to proper use. Now that they've become a "proven" process it's largely taking over as the preferred procedure for most companies. (privateer and GW were very fast to pick up on new 3d advances for sculpting)

Now almost every miniatures kickstarter is using 3d renders to promote their game concepts and as their source for creating their master models. PB has been very far behind the curve when it comes to anything developed since 1990 and that's been the largest impact and limitation on the KS, they are very out of their element.
.


what is this 3D printing you speak of ? never heard of it as it goes 3D printing has made miniature designs available to the masses instead of the few companies that make miniature molds and such.

 Mike1975 wrote:
 Swabby wrote:
All I know is that the RRT rules as written burned me on every name in the book, even Cavatore.

Regardless of intent or how deep the involvement goes, anyone that willingly put their name in that book deserves a lifelong boycott, so I completely agree with you in regards to the rift boardgame.


I guess that's me too then. I think they put my name in there somewhere.


your just a play tester not a creator credited.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




(being good now that I'm caught up and don't want to get yelled at)

Let's all be nice and think happy thoughts about delivery. I seem to recall that was going to fix everything back in early 2014. Clap everyone! CLAP!!!!!!!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Swabby wrote:
All I know is that the RRT rules as written burned me on every name in the book, even Cavatore.

Regardless of intent or how deep the involvement goes, anyone that willingly put their name in that book deserves a lifelong boycott, so I completely agree with you in regards to the rift boardgame.


Calvatore was also involved with AQMF. He might be a name to avoid at this point...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/28 19:22:23


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Battle Barge Buffet Line

For a while, game development was turning into the tabletop version of rap videos with various upcoming games dropping gaming celebrity names just because they paid them to read the rules once prior to launching on kickstarter. Alessio was one of the most frequent with his fingers seemingly in nearly every high profile project but only during the crowdfunding.

We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Well, the first two cards are up on DriveThruRPG.

Sure, they're not particularly useful (It's the stat cards for the Armored Valk A and J), rather than formation/upgrade cards, but it's a start.

Let's see how long they can keep doing what they promised. Cause it's not like they ever over promise and under deliver.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

Morgan Vening wrote:
Let's see how long they can keep doing what they promised. Cause it's not like they ever over promise and under deliver.
Keep expectations low enough and you can please anyone with mediocre results!

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Major




In a van down by the river

 Talizvar wrote:
Morgan Vening wrote:
Let's see how long they can keep doing what they promised. Cause it's not like they ever over promise and under deliver.
Keep expectations low enough and you can please anyone with mediocre results!


The secret to a successful marriage, PB's MO, or both? You decide!

Am I correct that with the admission that they have not selected a final manufacturer yet, assuming they're not pulling a materials shift to PVC "plastic" (which while technically correct does not correspond with the HIPS most are expecting), translates to an earliest fulfillment of late 2017, if not 2018?
   
Made in us
Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie






Morgan Vening wrote:
Well, the first two cards are up on DriveThruRPG.

Sure, they're not particularly useful (It's the stat cards for the Armored Valk A and J), rather than formation/upgrade cards, but it's a start.

Let's see how long they can keep doing what they promised. Cause it's not like they ever over promise and under deliver.


Remember when Kevin said he was going to do multiple updates a week all year?
That lasted an entire week.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

 n815e wrote:
Remember when Kevin said he was going to do multiple updates a week all year?
That lasted an entire week.
His new year resolutions must be freaking insane.
Well, I shall continue my vigil for more cards.
At least we can compare what Mike provided and see if there is a single change anywhere... which I am doubting.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in ca
Grizzled MkII Monster Veteran




Toronto, Ontario

 Krinsath wrote:
Am I correct that with the admission that they have not selected a final manufacturer yet, assuming they're not pulling a materials shift to PVC "plastic" (which while technically correct does not correspond with the HIPS most are expecting), translates to an earliest fulfillment of late 2017, if not 2018?


Wave 1 consisted of 11 figures across... 9 sprues I think? They had a post/comment/update/something about paying for molds in late (December'ish?) 2013, went to production in mid 2014 (June), had core boxes in the warehouse around August, and were shipping Battle Cry tiers in October (North America took like a month or two? RoW took like half a year longer to complete because reasons?).

There was the customs fiasco that snarled things up with the original cores, but since that was just an attempt to sell early at Gencon, not actual fulfillment ('core only' backers make up a tiny portion of the whole) it's not something I'm really counting on.

Basically, yes, IF they end up working with a group that can manage the same production schedule or better, and shipping is as snarled or less, and having ~2 dozen figures (and ~1 dozen more resin bits) to do up molds for, punch out, package, ship, and begin to deliver, by the very standards of their previous work, it is theoretically possible to actually deliver in 2017.

BUT (and I can already see 'the usual suspects' itching to reply) there are a loooooot of asterisks and caveats here. Things like the molds actually all getting made and the test sprues turning out right or in need of minimal changing, Chinese New Year, getting a factory slot when they need it, actually having (or being able to acquire; through existing resources, traditional loans, fire sales/grab bags, whatever) the finances to pay for it all up front, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

We can spend ten pages coming up with the million different ways they CAN and PROBABLY WILL screw it up.

But IN THEORY, it's not impossible for it to happen. Wave 1 happened. Wave two is bigger in terms of number of aspects to it, but there's also less to punch out per figure (the vast majority of backers will get considerably more VT's and Battlepods than they did FPA's or MAC-II's).
   
Made in au
Pustulating Plague Priest




The steel they purchased way back when to create the molds has oxidised! Palladium Books are currently looking for a manufacturer who can cast miniatures in rusty steel, creating another incompatibility issue!

There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.  
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 n815e wrote:
Morgan Vening wrote:
Well, the first two cards are up on DriveThruRPG.

Sure, they're not particularly useful (It's the stat cards for the Armored Valk A and J), rather than formation/upgrade cards, but it's a start.

Let's see how long they can keep doing what they promised. Cause it's not like they ever over promise and under deliver.


Remember when Kevin said he was going to do multiple updates a week all year?
That lasted an entire week.

Yup. That's what I was referencing. I was gonna hyperlink that in, but I forgot.

And Talizvar, that WAS his New Year's Resolution. As N8 pointed out, it lasted a week. Three in one week, one in the next, two two weeks after that, and then one each over the following two weeks. And nothing since early April.

But on to today's "promise". They've put two new cards up, so they haven't had it all fall to crap yet (I'd have owed someone a dollar if they'd bet me that would have happened).

But of course, in true Palladium fashion, instead of continuing with the Armored Valk stat cards from yesterday, and putting up the Squad/Squadron cards, so people who are actually interested can actually play with these in a game, they've gone and done the Zentradi Light and Heavy Infantry Stat Cards. And while these are nice, unless I'm mistaken, all this information is available in the book.

I mean, it's better than nothing, and it'll be OK once it's all out. But that's assuming they follow through, and deliver on everything they've promised. If they only put up the Stat Cards before this promise fizzles out, with no ability to play any of the units they've put up, that'll be peak Palladium.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

Morgan Vening wrote:
I mean, it's better than nothing, and it'll be OK once it's all out. But that's assuming they follow through, and deliver on everything they've promised. If they only put up the Stat Cards before this promise fizzles out, with no ability to play any of the units they've put up, that'll be peak Palladium.
I would just like all the cards out so Battlescribe / Armybuilder can be updated for the "complete" game and let us worry about having the physical units... only us crazy bunch would be using it anyway.

Are there therapists for people with "completionist" mental issues?
What used to be a non-issue in day to day life is a real problem dealing with PB.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Innocent SDF-1 Bridge Bunny






Talizvar you are not alone there. The game is not ready as it stands and we need all the unit cards so we can get point costs. It drives me nuts that this information has not been released years later.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




you do realize PB is only drawing this out so they can tell any inquiries see we did something this week, we put out stuff. they draw it out to buy them time instead of putting them all out at once.

Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Swabby wrote:
Talizvar you are not alone there. The game is not ready as it stands and we need all the unit cards so we can get point costs. It drives me nuts that this information has not been released years later.


ta da!

http://robotech-rpg-tactics.wikia.com/wiki/Robotech_RPG_Tactics_Wiki

Force Orgs
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vZVVBR0FCOE5tR2c
 Filename TACTICAL_BRIEFING_FIRST_WAR_ONLY v1.2.pdf [Disk] Download
 Description
 File size 2006 Kbytes

 Filename Conventional Units V5.51 (1).pdf [Disk] Download
 Description
 File size 2789 Kbytes


Dimensional Warfare
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0VSNzmthd1vVlVfU3BadVd2MVk 
   
 
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