Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I'm thinking about getting my own 3D printer. I plan to get into sculpting some of my own stuff in the future and it'll be a big help to be able to print stuff myself while I'm learning, and also print out minis other folks sculpt for me, rather than send it out somewhere and wait. The company I've been using has a printer that costs 6-figures and can print at 15 microns. It costs more than my house, so I don't expect to be buying one of those ever. There's printers out there nowadays that are much cheaper, the one I'm looking at right now is the Ultimaker 2 .. there's also a smaller sized one that's cheaper and might be all I need for minis.. but, this one does 20 micron and not 15. I haven't found any other "affordable" 3D printers that can go lower than 20.

So, question is, for printing minis like your average space marine for instance... would there be a visible difference in detail between 15 and 20 microns? I'm assuming the lower the micron the better the detail, but not sure 5 microns will really make a difference?

Drop RiTides (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/user/profile/9594.page) a PM,

he's got a 3D printer with 25 microns that can be used for mastering with some fine sanding, and has printed some stuff for the trollforged KS http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/720/482700.page

he's probably better placed than many on here to make suggestions

I would definitely recommend going with something established. For miniature masters I think the B9 Creator is by far the best bet. Look at Anvil Industries' results on these resin masters, that were cast from a 3D print made on a B9 Creator:

 Anvils Hammer wrote:
Some new figures in resin, I have started making master copies today.

 Anvils Hammer wrote:
They were all made on our second 3D printer, a B9 Creator, which I am really pleased with.

The first printer still doesnt work reliably, and untill I get a chance to tinker with it, was an expensive and time consuming bad judgement call.

So the lesson - Dont back a 3D printer on KS, purchase an established one which already exists and has good reviews.

But, the important thing is that we are getting reliably excellent prints.

Having done exactly what they said here (backed a printer on Kickstarter) they're totally right, it's not the way to go unless you just really enjoy (and have the time for) tinkering. As an early adopter, you end up being a de facto beta tester

My history with 3D printers is:
-Built a MakerBot from a kit (filament based printer or FDM)
-Operated a Form1 and Form1+ (liquid resin based printer or SLA)

I also got to attend the New York Makerfaire in 2013 and see all these side by side. My takeaways from that and my own experiences are:

1. The Ultimaker you're considering is just like MakerBot, and won't give you the results you need for miniatures masters - and neither will any filament based FDM style printer, even very high end.

2. Liquid resin printers give better resolution, but B9 have really found something with using a DLP (projector) to cure their resin. If you're doing something small, you raise the projector to just below the liquid resin tank and cure a smaller area but at incredible resolution.

3. Formlabs have good infrastructure for their company, but the results just don't match B9's. There's a reason jewelers love the B9, and the same requirements work for miniatures masters. For me, Formlabs have too difficult of supports to remove for masters and the layers are still visible (although Ed at Trollforged is a master at dealing with both). It's doable, but a lot of work. I'd rather put that work into something like the B9 that can give true masters without as much post processing.

You want an established company, and a non-filament-based printer, so your choices are fairly limited. But given Anvil's results, and my own experience operating the competition and comparing the results in-person, it's B9 hands down. You will have to play with it a bit, but that's true of any these, and it can give the results you need... which imo no other option under 5K can yet.

I second the B9 Creator. I own one, and at its highest resolution, it prints as well as the ~$100k machines I use at work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Though, I would point out that the original v1.1 B9 Creator wasa Kickstarter.)

Ah, ok thanks. Yeah I've been following the Anvil threads, great stuff

I was just assuming it all had to do with the micron resolution, and then I saw that the Ultimaker was 20 micron and around $1500 for the small one. I'll plan on the B9 then, but it's outta my price range right now. The kit version looks a little cheaper but still too much for me. But I'll keep an eye on it. Now that my sales are starting to increase I might be able to swing it later this year or early next year

I'm trying to slowly transition into doing more stuff in house, right now my costs are really high since I have to pay a concept artist, then a sculptor, then a printer, then get molds and masters. Really adds up fast.

Ditto the B9.

MB

 Lord Derp wrote:
I second the B9 Creator. I own one, and at its highest resolution, it prints as well as the ~$100k machines I use at work.

(Though, I would point out that the original v1.1 B9 Creator wasa Kickstarter.)

That is great to hear, Lord Derp!

What I meant about the Kickstarter ones is just that it means you're one of the first users for a company, and you face a LOT of bugs in the process. I was really impressed seeing the B9 in-person almost 2 years ago now, so they're established and at a mature enough stage that you could expect to be able to use it for a small / side business purposes (still tinkering required, but you can expect good results).

Necros, I know the kit is a little cheaper, but it's not That much and from my experience building a machine previously, the extra fee to have the experts do it is totally worth it. It took me and a friend a few months to get our MakerBot working how we wanted it (granted, that was also early days for them, but still).

Worth saving for and you never know, maybe they'll have a new version by then or something else to keep an eye on, but right now they are a significantly above the rest of their competition and if I was buying a home printer to try to do miniatures masters on, it would not even be a question. Just note that it's not going to be "just push a button", you're going to have to get familiar with the machine and comfortable with tweaking it, but again I think that is true of most of these. Even the Form1+, which is as "push button" as home liquid resin based printers get, ends up having a lot of things you need to do to keep it printing well, so imo it'd be better just to go for something that can give you the results you need for masters.

Yeah it looks like there will be a lot of trial and error to get it working how I want, I watched some videos last night. Is their default 30 micron setting good enough? or do you have to do some tweaks to get it to print smaller? in the videos it looked like 30 was the best it can do.

Does it use up a lot of resin and can you recycle what you pour into the tray? seemed like the resin was pricey but maybe not so bad if it lasts a long time.

I was also thinking I’d rather get the pre built model just because I know how little patience I have when things don’t “just work” I’ll probably have to wait till early next year before I dive in, but I’d hope to get it up and running good and then offer printing services to help cover the costs. I’m going to be doing larger terrain pieces myself, and maybe the other printer would be OK for that, but I’d rather just get one that can do everything.

How long till you start making 3D modcube panels that folks can paint?

Well, the ModCube is what I primarily used my 3d printer for and was the main purpose for my getting one. I actually just sold it recently, since once I began entering the production phase with an injection mold I was past prototyping and did not need it... but will be on the lookout for a B9 myself once I've fulfilled the Kickstarter, perhaps next year!

I definitely think pre-built is the way to go, then any energy you expend is for tweaking and getting good results, but not just to get started.

I think the ModCube panels will always be flat, part of the reason for my selling the 3D printer was to help offset the cost of the laser cutter (which we bought before the Kickstarter campaign so we could get a headstart on production). 3D printing is great for one-off miniatures masters, but not so great for making thousands of flat panels

Necros,

it might be worth contacting B9 and expressing an interest even if you're not ready to buy yet

there's always the chance they may have machines that could be had a reduced prices if the original buyer didn't keep making payments, or decided it wasn't what they wanted an sold it back to the company (and since they'd have been checked and vetted by the manufacturer they'd be a better bet than an 2nd hand one from a random seller)

I actually have had a lot of luck with the Formlabs Form1+ printer. It's a resin based SLA printer and while I think one of the earlier posters commented on the build support structure getting in the way that is all a matter of skill and practice with the unit and unfortunately you will experience the same thing with any printer you go with. If you are interested in the Formlabs you can contact their sales people and they will let you send them a model that they will print (I think it's like $40). Then you can see if it meets your needs, if you decide to buy the printer they just remove that cost from the cost of the printer.

But practice with the system is the most important. Early prints I did upside down because i had seen people do that on other SLA printers. However with the Form1+ i found that i got better results printing the model on its back. It just seemed that as the model got taller i had run off issues and the weight of the model caused issues. I do get some support points on the back, but knowing that allows me prepare for it.

That is not to say the B9 isn't great. I honestly have not used one (reading up on it now). But I have had success in the past with the Form1+.

O2Games wrote:
I actually have had a lot of luck with the Formlabs Form1+ printer. It's a resin based SLA printer and while I think one of the earlier posters commented on the build support structure getting in the way that is all a matter of skill and practice with the unit and unfortunately you will experience the same thing with any printer you go with. If you are interested in the Formlabs you can contact their sales people and they will let you send them a model that they will print (I think it's like $40). Then you can see if it meets your needs, if you decide to buy the printer they just remove that cost from the cost of the printer.

But practice with the system is the most important. Early prints I did upside down because i had seen people do that on other SLA printers. However with the Form1+ i found that i got better results printing the model on its back. It just seemed that as the model got taller i had run off issues and the weight of the model caused issues. I do get some support points on the back, but knowing that allows me prepare for it.

That is not to say the B9 isn't great. I honestly have not used one (reading up on it now). But I have had success in the past with the Form1+.

This is one of the reasons I do not like the extrusion printers, and prefer the finer detailed deposition printers that print the figure within a matrix (so that no supports need to be built - you wash away the supporting matrix after printing has been completed).

You will also find the polygon count limiting on printers that use extruded solids.

Most max out at around 200,000 quads (Tessellated into 400,000 triads - some will work with up to 500,000 quads).

This is probably the biggest limitation with 3D printing to date: Polygon count.

MB

BeAfraid - Do you cast your prints into molds? Or is the 3D print the end of their 'production' life? I had heard some horror stories of the support matrix getting caught inside the fold of a robe or other nook/cranny and then getting fused into the mold. Obviously proper cleaning resolves this issue.....but mistakes happen.....just curious if you have any experience with this.

So, what's the difference between something like a b9 or others in that price range, and a $100k Envisiontec? Like why is that so expensive if others can do a similar quality print?

O2 - I have had good results with the Form1+ as well, but I just don't think it's detailed enough for miniatures masters (unless you do quite a bit of sanding, as Ed at Trollforged does amazingly), whereas I think a well tuned B9 is. From comparing them in-person, the support points on the B9 were much easier to remove and left much less of a mark on the part... but I do say this as someone who operated a Form1+ extensively and only compared it to finished prints off of a B9 (rather than operating the B9).

BeAfraid - Just FYI I'm not sure if you were referring to O2's comment, but the Form1+ is a liquid resin printer (not extrusion based). I dearly wish for a way to have dissolvable supports with an SLA printer, it would be so amazing, but no such luck yet.

 Necros wrote:
Ah, ok thanks. Yeah I've been following the Anvil threads, great stuff

I was just assuming it all had to do with the micron resolution, and then I saw that the Ultimaker was 20 micron and around $1500 for the small one. I'll plan on the B9 then, but it's outta my price range right now. The kit version looks a little cheaper but still too much for me. But I'll keep an eye on it. Now that my sales are starting to increase I might be able to swing it later this year or early next year

I'm trying to slowly transition into doing more stuff in house, right now my costs are really high since I have to pay a concept artist, then a sculptor, then a printer, then get molds and masters. Really adds up fast.

Because this is something I'm getting into soon, how much does it cost you to get molds and casts done of a master?

O2Games wrote:
BeAfraid - Do you cast your prints into molds? Or is the 3D print the end of their 'production' life? I had heard some horror stories of the support matrix getting caught inside the fold of a robe or other nook/cranny and then getting fused into the mold. Obviously proper cleaning resolves this issue.....but mistakes happen.....just curious if you have any experience with this.

My intent is to have the figures cast in white-metal after being printed.

All of the 3D Print work I have done to date has been Industrial or Architectural (creating parts for buildings or houses that have a decorative, as well as a structural function).

But I have been around people who have done 3D printing for miniatures since the early-00s (I am friends with Steve Jackson, and was hanging around SJ Games when he took control of producing the OGRE/GEV miniatures, which Richard Kerr began designing using Rhino 3D, and then 3D printing using Stereolithography), and so I am aware of most of the problems that occur.

The problem of getting matrix stuck in a fold is just another cost of business, and it just means that the miniatures need to be inspected to make sure that undercuts are well cleaned out.

One way of doing this is to dissolve the matrix in an ultrasonic bath for a few days.

But, in working with Architectural Components, we have similar issues, mostly with having parts that expanded during the perfusion process for creating 3D metal printed parts, which then needed to be machined.

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Necros wrote:
So, what's the difference between something like a b9 or others in that price range, and a $100k Envisiontec? Like why is that so expensive if others can do a similar quality print?

Others can't do a similar print quality. They just get closer than others.

I would need to look at the specifics of the methods used by the Envisiontec v the B9. But just of the top of my head, it is that the Envisiontec has more than one dimension of resolution, while the B9 has only one dimension of resolution.

MB

 Necros wrote:
So, what's the difference between something like a b9 or others in that price range, and a $100k Envisiontec? Like why is that so expensive if others can do a similar quality print?

The price difference between the EnvisionTec vs the B9 has to deal with mostly component parts which is why there is a varied cost, slightly varied quality. The quality of both is fairly on par with each other, although the B9 has a little bit of a learning curve. The B9 if I recall uses a home theatre projector, most inexpensive resin printers use home projectors to lower the cost of the printer. Home theatre projectors used to cure the resin are designed using visable light but have a lower lifespan. For example the lamp and projector may need to be replaced more frequently.

The EnvisionTec uses a project also designed for UV light curing with resin. They cost a bit more, replacement lamps are more expensive and lifespan lasts a bit longer. There are a few other part differences. There will be a minor amount of detail, most resin printers have been used for jewlery and dental casting for years before they became more mainstream.

For a the amount of printing done to create masters, not doing a mass quantity of printing 24/7 the B9 isn't bad at all. Mileage varies based on knowledge though and materials used as well. Don't get too caught up in the micron of a printer it can often be misleading. You also have to look at the materials that can be printed unless you are only interested in resin. Some printers can do wax printing for investment casting, high temperature resin/plastics good, etc. You also have to look at the support available, if you aren't experienced, how well they answer questions, what questions they answer, how hard they are to reach, etc. Then look at part replacements, costs and warranties.

Printed with B9 1.2 (resin mix was not pigmented for the resolution used) - 50 micron

Also printed with B9 1.1 (correct pigmentation used)

EnvisionTec - 31 micron

Wow nice comparison pics thanks.

Looks like the envisiontec is the best but the 2nd one isn't too bad either.

What I'm planning to do now is make the switch from Blender to zBrush and learn how that works, then when I know what I'm doing I'll probably look into the b9.. and also keep an eye out for other new printers if something comes along before I buy. I would have to sell a house or 3 to be able to afford an Envisiontec..

I will do a shameless plug for the 3d printer developed by the company I work for, Autodesk. We recently started selling our own 3d printer, the Ember. A lot of RD was put into this project to make it a real competitor in the 3d printing business at the ~$4,500-$7,000 price range. As software developers we have been in the business of CAD/CAM for over 25yrs.

https://ember.autodesk.com/

It is similar to the B9 in that is uses a DLP process to cure the printing medium. It can print with very high resolution and capture fine detail. It also comes with a year subscription to Fusion 360. 3d CAD modeling software for the manufacturing industry.

 Necros wrote:
I would have to sell a house or 3 to be able to afford an Envisiontec..

Not really, it really just depends on what you want and what you are using it for. For what you have planned you would probably only need a Micro EDU which is used for jewelry/dental work, it only runs about $10K. It is more expensive than a B9 but it is an option that doesn't require 100K+.

Oh ok .. I did some googling and saw the Envisiontec listed for $112k, but even $10kish is still too much for my garage operation... in fact it's not even a garage, more like a closet-in-my-condo operation.

I'll keep an eye on what's coming out and stuff as I get more used to 3D sculpting myself, in the meantime I plan to stick to the guy I've been using thus far. I mostly want my own printer so that I can print my own sculpts and learn as I go, rather than spending a lot for someone to print for me and possibly find out I did it all wrong and have to start over. And then the added bonus of printing everything else myself going forward, possibly offering printing services for others too once I know what I'm dong. But I'm a total noob at this point, so I want to make sure I get the right thing from the start since it's a big investment.

The Ember looks cool, much flashier design. Are there any other miniature designers using it? Or would I be able to send some STL files to get printed on one to see how it looks? I saw that a few of the other companies out there offer that.

 Necros wrote:
The Ember looks cool, much flashier design. Are there any other miniature designers using it? Or would I be able to send some STL files to get printed on one to see how it looks? I saw that a few of the other companies out there offer that.

Not sure if other mini designers are using it? It is pretty new on the market and I think we are mostly marketing towards industrial designers, for prototyping. I have see some jewelry stuff printed to make molds for metal casting. I don't have an Ember in my office, but there is one in the Waltham/Boston office. If you PM me with e-mail contact info you can send me an STL file, I can see if I can get access to the Ember we have there and do a test print for you.

I should also note that, while I was saying that I didn't think the Form1+ is really good enough for 28mm miniatures masters (without a lot of sanding, so only suitable for large parts) it is simply worlds better than my prior MakerBot. So, I'm not throwing it under the bus, just saying if I was buying a printer now, I'd be looking at something using a projector like the B9. From what I can tell, that technology is hitting its stride and will give the best results for home 3D printer use for miniatures. Choosing the machines that are most popular with jewelers is a good indication of what will work best, imo!

The B9 is not difficult to build at all. I went with the kit version, and it took about five hours or so to do. Though, I went at a very leisurely pace and may have enjoyed several adult beverages along the way. That said, my first print was successful. They have a very thorough step by step guide, with probably thousands of photos, which illustrates the process. All of the hardware is even bagged and labelled by step (and then sub-bagged by sub-step) which makes it pretty easy. I would also recommend reading through assembly issues other people have had on their forums, as that can give you a good heads-up as to which steps of the process you need to be careful with. Maybe three times I had to undo a couple of things and redo a step, but usually that was because I was getting cocky. (And in one instance, I could have just left it the way it was, but I wanted to make sure I ran the wires in exactly the same way the photo showed.)

Also, nine times out of ten, when you post about a problem on the forums, it's the guy who designed it who answers your question, which is nice.

Yeah I was thinking of the pre-built one just because my lack of patience is disturbing. Saving $1000 and building myself does seem like a nice option though. Who knows where I'll be when I'm ready to buy Still bummed that the Ultimaker won't work good enough, I liked the idea of a $1500 desktop printer.

Do you have to use the projector they give you? Like if you already owned one? Or could you use a fancy 4K projector that has way more resolution than HD, and that could give you an even more detailed mini? Of course a 4K projector would cost 2-3x the price of the printer, but still.

Intrigued by the Ember though now that I've been looking into it, but the price may be too much for me :( We'll see though, still tons of researching and zbrush learning to go

Still looking at printers around the web. Anyone familiar with Kudo 3D?

http://www.kudo3d.com/products/

Looks like they start around $3000 and claim to have really good detail.

Loborocket wrote:

 Necros wrote:
The Ember looks cool, much flashier design. Are there any other miniature designers using it? Or would I be able to send some STL files to get printed on one to see how it looks? I saw that a few of the other companies out there offer that.

Not sure if other mini designers are using it? It is pretty new on the market and I think we are mostly marketing towards industrial designers, for prototyping. I have see some jewelry stuff printed to make molds for metal casting. I don't have an Ember in my office, but there is one in the Waltham/Boston office. If you PM me with e-mail contact info you can send me an STL file, I can see if I can get access to the Ember we have there and do a test print for you.

I did not forget about this. I finally got in touch with the person who is in charge of the printer in the other office. I am sending him your files for printing. He sent me back this image of a miniature he had already done on the Ember.

That looks cool.. was that for a game and if so do you know which one? It'd be cool to see the final painted version of him too if it's out there

I've also decided after my next Kickstarter is done I'm going to invest in a copy of zbrush and start doing a lot of my own sculpts, since mudbox is so cheap I'll probably grab that as well. It looked like it will be great for easily adding textures like wood grain and stuff like that.

 Necros wrote:
That looks cool.. was that for a game and if so do you know which one? It'd be cool to see the final painted version of him too if it's out there

I've also decided after my next Kickstarter is done I'm going to invest in a copy of zbrush and start doing a lot of my own sculpts, since mudbox is so cheap I'll probably grab that as well. It looked like it will be great for easily adding textures like wood grain and stuff like that.

No idea if it was for a game, or where it came from. It might have just been a file we had sitting around for testing? It just happened to be something he had at his desk and sent me a picture of since I asked to print miniatures.

I think the real strong point of Mudbox is the texturing part of the application. the sculpting tools are "about the same" as competitors, so using it for texturing is what happens a lot of the time and artists "sculpt" in other applications.

We will see how your minis come out of the Ember soon. I am excited to see the results!