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I am wondering am I the only one who does this? Instead of buying a waveserpent for a transport I just buy a second unit of Fire Dragons and let them walk. Battle focus and fleet usually means I get the shot I want! Bikes with scatter lasers or Swooping Hawks 18 inch move and charge with haywire grenades usually take care of most vehicles while the fire dragons help create a oh no zone with the wraithknight. Vehicles are afraid to get close because of the fire dragons and than the other stuff is afraid of the wraithknight while you pound them with str 6 shots.
I have actually been toying with the idea in a craftworld warhost aspect host. The unit always gets 12" of movement this way and reroll morale means they essentially never run away. Even with this however the dragons really are too slow. You really need for this unit to be able to cross the board by turn 2 or melta a transport before it dumps it's contents. Dragons on foot just cannot manage this and they are slowed by the terrain that for hover transports is just cover saves and LoS blockers.
The problem is that 2 fire dragon units getting within 6" of the enemy vehicles are vastly easier to kill than a waveserpent and take 2-3 times as long to do so.
The reason dragons work in a serpent is that the serpent is extremely tough to kill (approximately as hard to kill as a wraithlord). Additionally the serpent can turbo boost 1 turn if you need to cover the board and then protect the unit to shoot turn 2. Alternatively a dragon unit jumping out of the serpent can cover 12" + their battle focus. This is huge for tackling knights early on before they can start really beating your units up.
BTW Venoms and raiders both work because the units are still cheap (thus letting you take multiples) while still being faster and more survivable than units of fire dragons normally are. Most importantly though is that these vehicles are still extremely survivable as they can skirt about terrain, jumping over it when they get near targets. The venom being extremely brutal for this.
I understand why most people want to put these guys in a transport for protection and positioning, I just want to explain why the foot option is a viable option.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Nope, they just die way to easily. Even in friendly games I dont see them getting there points worth walking.
Serpent is the way to go.
The unit cost only 110 points the unit is extremely cheap for 5 meltaguns and 5 meltabombs, when you buy a wave serpent the cost of the unit goes up to 220. Now the fire dragons go from a cheap powerful unit to an assain like role that can kills one vehicle than most likely die, is the one vehicle it kills worth 220 points?
Jimsolo wrote: Venom or Raider for me. Too many points to trust the skies to be clear of AP 3 fire before they get to melta range.
110 points is not a large investment, and lets be honest most of the ap 3 shots are going into wraithknights or scatterlaser bikes. Venom or raiders just like the waveserpent is a good option I am not disputing that, if you want one vehicle dead buy a transport if you want more from the unit buy a second unit and put them on foot. If you factor in the Hq choice, troop choice, and transport you most likely could buy 1 or 2 fire dragons squads that can kill alot more stuff!
ansacs wrote: I have actually been toying with the idea in a craftworld warhost aspect host. The unit always gets 12" of movement this way and reroll morale means they essentially never run away. Even with this however the dragons really are too slow. You really need for this unit to be able to cross the board by turn 2 or melta a transport before it dumps it's contents. Dragons on foot just cannot manage this and they are slowed by the terrain that for hover transports is just cover saves and LoS blockers.
I don't use my firedragons purely for anti-tank, I use them for their str 8 ap 1 shots. I understand what you are saying completely but lets say the transport does turbo-boast and is now in range to dump its cargo next turn. The fire dragons are on foot and now within 2d6 range and can charge with melta-bombs to gurantee a destroyed vehicle. Also remember that you dont have to go all the way across the board to destroy vehicles, they have to move towards the objective to win.
ansacs wrote: The problem is that 2 fire dragon units getting within 6" of the enemy vehicles are vastly easier to kill than a waveserpent and take 2-3 times as long to do so.
Getting within 2d6 range is not my goal with my fire dragons. They are there to help the wraithknight create a zone that my opponent fears. Besides the biggest kept secret in this game is shooting is not how you destroy vehicles, assaulting is! I rely on Swooping hawks and their haywire grenades to kill vehicles. They can literally be 25 inches away from a vehicle at the start of the turn and be in charge range and most likely destroy the vehicle with ease. Why spend 220 points on a kamikaze type unit? When you can spend less on Swooping hawks and gurantee the kill and have a unit that can offer alot of other things aswell. 106 for 6 hawks and exarch and 110 for 5 fire dragons will do more than a waveserpent and fire dragon squad could.
ansacs wrote: The reason dragons work in a serpent is that the serpent is extremely tough to kill (approximately as hard to kill as a wraithlord). Additionally the serpent can turbo boost 1 turn if you need to cover the board and then protect the unit to shoot turn 2. Alternatively a dragon unit jumping out of the serpent can cover 12" + their battle focus. This is huge for tackling knights early on before they can start really beating your units up.
I understand completely why it works but couldnt you charge it and get the same results? The way I get rid of Knights is charging it with swooping hawks with prescience, wraithknight, or one of my fire dragon squads. I place my objectives so that they are extremely close to each other so I dont have to worry about distance it allows me to take advantage of battlefocus if my opponent wishes to get close to one.
ansacs wrote: BTW Venoms and raiders both work because the units are still cheap (thus letting you take multiples) while still being faster and more survivable than units of fire dragons normally are. Most importantly though is that these vehicles are still extremely survivable as they can skirt about terrain, jumping over it when they get near targets. The venom being extremely brutal for this.
I guess the assumption is that all of the vehicles that you want to destroy are far off pounding away at the army, but that just isnt the case most of the time. If that is the case my objective secured wave serpents are wracking up the points. While I hide the small 5 man squad as most tournaments are starting to use atleast one large LOS blocking terrain.
It sure is, I am not disputing the fact that the various transport options are good, I just have a different style that I wanted to share as it is working well for myself. If the only anti-tank option you bring is fire dragons on foot than yes they will get blown to pieces before they can do anything. When you have multiple units that can destroy vehicles than fire dragons is not neccessarily the number one priority for your opponent! Target priority will change and if they choose to kill them its only 110 points and you have other threats. I rather have multiple threats than one secure option that with one bad roll of the dice you are out of luck.
When you spend around 200 points to put the fire dragons in a transport than there is alot of pressure on that unit to get the job done. But when you have other units that pressure dissappears as its not a large point investment like the transport route is. I can spend 110 points on the fire dragons and can use the other points on another squad of fire dragons, 5 bikes with scatter lasers, or another swooping hawks squad making the list more versatile.
This sounds awesome. Thanks for some input on a different way to play. I just got back into the game in feb and have slowly been buying and building my way to a guardian battlehost with an avatar and an aspect host as my main build. I am almost there, everything is basically a work in progress as I want to get them built to play and slowly painting. I have bought a bunch of metal aspects off ebay, since i was told to stay away from finecast. And am looking forward to using them since back in 5th when i stopped playing they were still not used much. What do you normally take as a third aspect then reapers or spiders?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/01 11:33:46
Lugganath-light of the fallen suns
2500points 250 points
master of ordinance wrote: BattleCannon. One word and one shot that can and will wreck your Fire Dragons on foot.
True, there are actually many things that could take them out on foot. But if I am running footdar, you will have multiple units of guardians with BL, or EML, that are free to take down tanks,war walkers which are required, cheap vypers, along with my Avatar making everyone fearless, with most likely a wraithknight, swooping hawks, maybe a crimson hunter formation depending on points. So you had better have first turn cuz all my stuff is moving 12 in towards you and the chances of that battle cannon surviving a turn of shooting is very low. So yeah if you have turn 1, you might get a shot off with it, but you better kill something cuz its going to die in the next turn.
Lugganath-light of the fallen suns
2500points 250 points
Last time I fielded them (which was admittedly in the last book) I started them off in a Falcon. Once they got out, I was surprised buy how much ground they could cover on foot. I’m used to SM drop pod melta, where once you get out of the pod and take your one shot, you are probably done popping tanks. But the dragons were just scooting across the table, still shooting at stuff and blowing up tanks. Not all of it was in the half range for the melta, but they were still contributing.
I don’t know if I’d start them on foot, but I was pleasantly surprised at how mobile they were. And they should be even faster these days.
ninjafiredragon wrote: Nope, they just die way to easily. Even in friendly games I dont see them getting there points worth walking.
Serpent is the way to go.
The unit cost only 110 points the unit is extremely cheap for 5 meltaguns and 5 meltabombs, when you buy a wave serpent the cost of the unit goes up to 220. Now the fire dragons go from a cheap powerful unit to an assain like role that can kills one vehicle than most likely die, is the one vehicle it kills worth 220 points?
Only 110, but smart opponents can easily stay out of range long enough to shoot at them with basically any weapon and make the squad just go away.
Doubling the cost of the unit for the near certainty of being able to blow open a tank is quite nice, and unlike walking dragons the serpent can take some damage and draw fire away from other sources.
master of ordinance wrote: BattleCannon. One word and one shot that can and will wreck your Fire Dragons on foot.
True, there are actually many things that could take them out on foot. But if I am running footdar, you will have multiple units of guardians with BL, or EML, that are free to take down tanks,war walkers which are required, cheap vypers, along with my Avatar making everyone fearless, with most likely a wraithknight, swooping hawks, maybe a crimson hunter formation depending on points. So you had better have first turn cuz all my stuff is moving 12 in towards you and the chances of that battle cannon surviving a turn of shooting is very low. So yeah if you have turn 1, you might get a shot off with it, but you better kill something cuz its going to die in the next turn.
A) Most of the time IG opponents will take more than 1 Leman russ.
B) All the anti tank you listed right there is no where near enough to down 1 (or more) Leman russes in one turn. Crimson hunter+Hawks are in reserve. Guardians shooting there bright lances and EMLs into the Leman Russes? The odds of doing anything are so low you are better shooting at other units, and thats even if you are in range of the tanks. Another point that should be addressed is why you are running EMLs at all, but thats a different speech all together.
War Walkers would be my Number one priority to down, but even they only cause about 1 HP of damage to the Tanks (assuming they are in cover) on average armed with 6 bright lances.
Vypers are trash, but sense you have to take one to run the formation I cant really argue it, but if you armed them with bright lances or EMLs your doing it wrong.
Avatar dies very easily, and Eldar dont really worry about moral. Especially if your playing footdar with the Aspect Formations (which you absolutely should).
Wraithknight is good and would basically win the game for you, doesnt matter what the rest of your army looks like.
As mentioned above crimson hunter formation doesnt come in till turn two.
As an IG player with battlecannons, I would be very happy to play footdar, especially the list you just mentioned.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/01 16:02:13
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Yeah unless you have a ton of LOS blocking terrain I can't see the Fire Dragons walking across a board without losing a considerable amount. Any opponent who knows what Fire Dragons can do in melta range will just scoot and shoot them to bits before they ever make contact.
Of course, 110pt squad drawing fire every turn can work to your advantage if you want a distraction for other more dangerous stuff to get close. But like you said, 110pts is not a huge investment. So why not take the WS? Plus, the WS has some firepower of its own.
Yeah I am not saying walking dragons are the way to go, but there is deff a different tactic that could work. Putting them in a wave serpent and killing 1 tank, and then they normally get killed is alot of points to invest in a 1 trick show. But putting 3 units of 3 in falcons and deep striking them covers an entire board almost, if you figure, 4 in apart falcons, 6 in move out and battle focus, now that is a devastating.
anyway as the OP posted, he would have 2 units of fire dragons, for the same cost as 1 unit in a wave serpent, and if you field footdar and keep them shielded until they need to shoot, you can keep them alive. Eldar have to many things to shoot at generally, that by focusing on walking fire dragons, would probably be the death of you any.
Also I havent faced a leman russ in long time since i am new again, however your only getting 12 armour on those leman russ from bright lances, so if i guide a unit of bright lanced war walkers your losing at least one tank or more if they are in a unit, an we can discuss EML later however giving me a free gun that can shoot 48" with skyfire and is strength 8 for free is a good versatile weapon.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/01 16:14:26
Lugganath-light of the fallen suns
2500points 250 points
I really think you guys are overstating how survivable 5 guys are with Toughness 3, a 3+ armor save, and more importantly that hold a huge target priority for the opponent.
I think we can all agree a 5 man squad of tactical marines dies pretty quickly.
Now make them toughness 3.
Then give them target priority.
I dont see them lasting past one turn of shooting.
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Fire dragons are certainly more viable on foot now than they used to be, since if you take them in a craftworld warhost they can move 6, run guaranteed 6" and then shoot- giving them a much large threat rage.
They can hide behind LOS blocking terrain (lol not a good plan...) and can probably get cover, but they are ultimately toughness 3 and are going to die horribly if anything with any killy power points their direction.
I would rather be in a metal bawks, or a wraithbone flying moon toy.
True, I had not even really considered their lower toughness either. They would melt to any serious attention, small arms or heavy. The opponent would not really have to prioritize them highly, just throw a few volleys of light arms fire and the Fire Dragons are probably toast.
What is the maximum squad size Fire Dragons can be taken in? It would be an awful idea, but would also be cool to see a whole gaggle of Fire Dragons marching around.
They melt every game anyway, they get out blow up something, and then get shot to death. I do agree that putting them in a WS makes them more durable to get at least one kill in before dying. But the end result will be the same, they die.
Lugganath-light of the fallen suns
2500points 250 points
clamclaw wrote: True, I had not even really considered their lower toughness either. They would melt to any serious attention, small arms or heavy. The opponent would not really have to prioritize them highly, just throw a few volleys of light arms fire and the Fire Dragons are probably toast.
What is the maximum squad size Fire Dragons can be taken in? It would be an awful idea, but would also be cool to see a whole gaggle of Fire Dragons marching around.
10...
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ninjafiredragon wrote: Only 110, but smart opponents can easily stay out of range long enough to shoot at them with basically any weapon and make the squad just go away. Doubling the cost of the unit for the near certainty of being able to blow open a tank is quite nice, and unlike walking dragons the serpent can take some damage and draw fire away from other sources.
If my opponent wants to have a long range war with wave serpents and scatterlasers he can do that! If you are already on top of the objectives by turn 2 and he is trying to avoid your fire dragon squads or kill them before he makes a move you are in a good position to win the game.
There are things you have under your control that can affect how effective the fire dragons are such as positioning. Place the fire dragons in positions where your opponent has to expose himself to take them out. Make them have to do one of two things move out of cover or closer either one works when you are playing mostly footdar. Your other threats will be able to take them out alot easier.
master of ordinance wrote: BattleCannon. One word and one shot that can and will wreck your Fire Dragons on foot.
Spreading out and cover saves reduces the power of battlecannons.
clamclaw wrote: Yeah unless you have a ton of LOS blocking terrain I can't see the Fire Dragons walking across a board without losing a considerable amount. Any opponent who knows what Fire Dragons can do in melta range will just scoot and shoot them to bits before they ever make contact.
You dont need to be in 2d6 range anymore due to Assured Destruction! Just one pen and a 4+ is all you need, so the transport is not as vital.
clamclaw wrote: Of course, 110pt squad drawing fire every turn can work to your advantage if you want a distraction for other more dangerous stuff to get close. But like you said, 110pts is not a huge investment. So why not take the WS? Plus, the WS has some firepower of its own.
I dont need the WS because I can get better str 6 shooting elsewhere in the codex, I can buy a fire dragon squad and some scatterlasers bikes for around the same price as a WS and firedragons and which one do you think is more dangerous?
ninjafiredragon wrote: I really think you guys are overstating how survivable 5 guys are with Toughness 3, a 3+ armor save, and more importantly that hold a huge target priority for the opponent.
I think we can all agree a 5 man squad of tactical marines dies pretty quickly.
Now make them toughness 3.
Then give them target priority.
I dont see them lasting past one turn of shooting.
Ok, I can tell your having a hard time with the positioning concept here is my list.
Wraithknight, fire dragons, and wraithguard all move together within 18 inches of each other creating a zone where if the enemy enters they will be shot with meltaguns, D weapons, or assaulted by the Wraithknight. If my opponent makes a move and kills one of my fire dragon squads which is not hard to do, the unit that just killed my fire dragons is dead next turn because of the fire dragons positioning. If they are attacking me from a distance than you rely on the durability of objective secured wave serpents and bikes to win you the game.
In my list when fire dragons die it usually means my opponent has put some effort and energy into it and has decided to sacrifice a unit or put way more than 110 points worth of fire power into it. When you use the transport route they usually kill the vehicle than die because they are seperated from the rest of my army.
The serpents have objective secured and I win games with them. I basically fly around the board with them claiming the objectives, depending on the situation the guardians may already be on foot.
I've had a couple of games where the wave serpent got imobilised on turn 1 so they got out and foot slogged.. both games the fire dragons were really impressive. Usually because they sort of herded the enemy away from them.
One guy forgot about them in the last turn and tried every untenable lie/cheat to say they could't see/shoot his warlord.. they seem to put the fear of the almighty into people
Actually like the idea of walking Fire Dragons. I still have the 2nd edition models for them so would need to convert them with green stuff (I'm thinking scaly cloaks and dragon-like fins on their helmets) so make them look more the part.
Yes, a wave serpent would be great, but I think in a Warhost they will get 12" move a turn and if in an aspect host will get other great benefits. They just need intelligent use of cover. No, they won't reach backfield enemy armour, but since when did everyone stop using bright lances?
Let's not forget they are great against elite enemy units (most astartes units etc.) too, not just vehicles.
While I understand walking would work simply by being a cheap unit that cannot be ignored, which is great in an army that is so full of threats that cannot be ignored that he has to let some pass. However I don't see a reason not to pick up a Venom for your Fire Dragons. Assuming your taking DE allies anyway (If not, this is kinda irrelevant. But DE allies are great for Eldar anyhow) then 65pts gets you the same movement, but also the ability to Turbo boost, deepstrike, have 12 Poison 4+ shots and 2 hull points between your T3 guys and his Bolters.
Sure, a Venom isn't that hard to kill, but he has to dedicate anti-tank weapons to it, and if you decide to jink or pass your Flickerfield save or he simply only causes a single hullpoint, he will need to dedicate another unit to do so. THEN he needs to dedicate yet another unit to eradicate the Fire Dragons within.
The reason you suggest 2 Fire Dragons is better then 1 + Serpent is that they are two separate threats that might slip under the radar or force a reaction. The reason 2 Fire Dragons in 2 Venoms is even better then that is because you have doubled the amount of units needed to remove the threat from 2 to 4 for only 130pts while also increasing mobility. Sounds like a bargain to me.
In a mech list I agree that the venom route is good but scatterlaser bikes is now the best unit in the Eldar codex and what goes well with them is not a unit like the venom which forces more armor saves but a unit that eliminate the save completely like the fire dragons. Bringing multiple fire dragon squads in my opinion is better than a transport.
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