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So the question is can you have a Deathwing Terminator model with both a CML and TH/SS?

The relevant options:

"Any model may replace all of it's weapons with:
- Thunder hammer and storm shield"

"A model wearing Terminator armour may replace it's storm bolter with one of the following:
- Cyclone missile launcher (1)
(1) Does not replace the model's storm bolter"

My thinking is you replace all weapons with the TH/SS, and then add the CML since you do not need a storm bolter to swap out. Otherwise the only point of the footnote on the CML is to retain a completely useless and redundant storm bolter.

Am I wrong on this?

I would count the Cyclone Missile Launcher as a weapon, which would then be replaced by the Thunderhammer and Stormshield.

It also seems like you need the storm bolter to pick any of the options under the "Replace storm bolter with one of the following"... however it doesn't actually replace the storm bolter. They really should have put it under a different option.

I don't believe it's intended, however I doubt anyone reasonable would ever complain. Do it and see what happens.

On a seperate note, why do you believe the storm bolter becomes useless? You can still fire it alongside the Cyclone Missile Launcher if I remember correctly.

I had forgotten the bit about firing the SB and CML together under the CML rules.

I don't think there is any question that the CML is a weapon, the question is more along the lines of are upgrades done sequentially (which there has been rules support for in the past).

The whole "You may replace X with Y, but don't replace X" is a bit silly and yes, it should have been seperate.

if you replace all weapons with TH/SS you do not have a stormbolter to replace with CML. You end up not replacing the storm bolter if you buy that option but in order to buy the option in the first place you are required to have a stormbolter to give up.

A model wearing Terminator armour may replace it's storm bolter with one of the following.

if you do not have a stormbolter at the point you are buying that, you cannot 'buy one of the following'

ie a model without a stormbolter has no option to buy something from that list.

so RAW no.

blaktoof wrote:
if you replace all weapons with TH/SS you do not have a stormbolter to replace with CML. You end up not replacing the storm bolter if you buy that option but in order to buy the option in the first place you are required to have a stormbolter to give up.

A model wearing Terminator armour may replace it's storm bolter with one of the following.

if you do not have a stormbolter at the point you are buying that, you cannot 'buy one of the following'

ie a model without a stormbolter has no option to buy something from that list.

so RAW no.

I disagree with you your logic. The CML does not replace the storm bolter, that statement you quoted is effectively stricken. We are only left with permission to take the CML from the list. But the question of if you can do that AND replace all your weapons is a different matter entirely. I actually have a DW terminator with twin lighting claws and the CML. I asked around my local area if people thought this was allowed, as the options are not crystal clear, and every single person I asked said it was. Now thats my area, and results my differ, but I suspect no one will give you grief about it.

I am not making a statement based on logic.

the RULES AS WRITTEN only allow you to buy from that list if you have a stormbolter to replace.

if you buy one of the options you do not have to replace the stormbolter (ie the stormbolter you are required to replace to get something from the list remains)

does a model with a TH/SS have a stormbolter?

The same answer to that is the same answer to the following:

Does a model with a TH/SS and no stormbolter have permission to buy items from the following list:

A model wearing Terminator armour may replace it's storm bolter with one of the following.

If you do not have a stormbolter, you do not have an option to buy anything on that list.

the option is crystal clear.

if you see another RAW option to buy a CML or anything from that list that does not ask for you to have a stormbolter to replace, please quote the rules for it.

The inclusion of "Does not replace the model’s storm bolter" for the CML means that this "A model wearing Terminator armour may replace it's storm bolter with one of the following." becomes "A model wearing Terminator armour may replace it's storm bolter with one of the following." meaning all you have left is permission to take the CML at the points cost provided. To summarize no need to replace the stormbolter = no need to have a stormbolter.

 DJGietzen wrote:
The inclusion of "Does not replace the model’s storm bolter" for the CML means that this "A model wearing Terminator armour may replace it's storm bolter with one of the following." becomes "A model wearing Terminator armour may replace it's storm bolter with one of the following." meaning all you have left is permission to take the CML at the points cost provided. To summarize no need to replace the stormbolter = no need to have a stormbolter.

That is not actually supported anywhere by the rules. In fact it is made up entirely and opposite of what the rules state.

To ick from the list you must have a stormbolter. If you pick xml you don't have to give up said stormbolter, that is not permission to pick from the list without a stormbolter, it is permission to pick from the list when you have a stormbolter and then not give it up with the end result being the model still has a stormboltstormbolter.

Does a model with a th/as have a stormbolter? No. If you incorrectly give it a xml does it keep the stormbolter it was required to have to get the cml? Yes. Then the model must STILL have a stormbolter after buying a cml.

If you take this line by line, it's pretty simple, really.

What do they mean when they say, "A model may replace it's storm bolter with one of the following:"?

They mean,

if (model has stormbolter) // if they didn't, they couldn't replace one
Remove storm bolter. Add X or Y or Z or CML and Stormbolter

Thinking about it like that it makes sense to me that you couldn't take a CML unless you had a stormbolter. Could you replace your stormbolter with one of those other options and still take a CML? No. So you can't take the TH/SS and a CML.

That's my take.

(Tangentially related, but in the 6th edition codex instead of saying you can replace your stormbolter with one of the following, it says you can choose one of the following options, one of which is take a CML. So I'd say in 6th edition, yes you can do it, but in 7th you cannot unless they FAQ or errata it)

I would allow it.

blaktoof wrote:
To [take] from the list you must have a stormbolter. If you pick [cml] you don't have to give up said stormbolter, that is not permission to pick from the list without a stormbolter, it is permission to pick from the list when you have a stormbolter and then not give it up with the end result being the model still has a [stormbolter].

You've made a presumption here I don't see in the rules. Exactly why is it that to take from the list you must have a stormbolter?

 DJGietzen wrote:
You've made a presumption here I don't see in the rules. Exactly why is it that to take from the list you must have a stormbolter?

Because the very first thing it says is "You may replace your stormbolter with one of the following"

channingman wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
You've made a presumption here I don't see in the rules. Exactly why is it that to take from the list you must have a stormbolter?

Because the very first thing it says is "You may replace your stormbolter with one of the following"

You already have permission to take from the list, it doesn't require you have a stormbolter. Yes, if you dont have a storm bolter then you cant replace it. However, you dont have too when purchasing a CML.

Permission to take from the list, is not tied to having a stormbolter, it only requires a stormbolter to swap out for most of the weapons.

So you can ignore the first line? That isnt how rules work

You are told to swap out your storm bolter, if you dont have one, yo may not go further

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you can ignore the first line? That isnt how rules work

You are told to swap out your storm bolter, if you dont have one, yo may not go further

I have a company master.

I swap out my chain sword and pistol for two relics or other weapons.

I then want to buy the shroud of heros.

Are you saying I no longer have access to that list because I dont have the items needed to swap them out?


Again, permission to use the wargear list isn't tied into the stormbolter. Permission to take one of the items that swap the stormbolter for the weapon is. Since it does not require you to swap the storm bolter out the storm bolter is not needed.


Permission to take items from that list had already been given.

It isnt a permission, it is a requirement

Do you have a stormbolter? Yes or No. If you lack a stormbolter, you cannot comply with the requirement to "swap out..."

We DA players have been able to take terminators with TH/SS since 6th edition it's mainly cause we don't have assault terminators or standard terminators we have "do whatever you want terminators" I have 2 squads of 5 with TH/SS and Lightning claws both with CML on one of them GW worded it funny as hell but it IS legal

Stalked21 wrote:
We DA players have been able to take terminators with TH/SS since 6th edition it's mainly cause we don't have assault terminators or standard terminators we have "do whatever you want terminators" I have 2 squads of 5 with TH/SS and Lightning claws both with CML on one of them GW worded it funny as hell but it IS legal

That isnt a rules argument, hjust an assertion, please follow the tenets

Please show how a TH/SS terminator has met the requirement to swap their stormbolter.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Stalked21 wrote:
We DA players have been able to take terminators with TH/SS since 6th edition it's mainly cause we don't have assault terminators or standard terminators we have "do whatever you want terminators" I have 2 squads of 5 with TH/SS and Lightning claws both with CML on one of them GW worded it funny as hell but it IS legal

That isnt a rules argument, hjust an assertion, please follow the tenets

Please show how a TH/SS terminator has met the requirement to swap their stormbolter.

Please show where he is required to swap the storm bolter for the CML.

So what if you take the Cyclone and then swap out he Storm Bolter for the Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield?

 Anpu42 wrote:
So what if you take the Cyclone and then swap out he Storm Bolter for the Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield?

The (paraphrased) wording on the TH/SS is "replace all weapons", so that's a non-starter.

This codex has brought us full-circle to when the 6th edition one was released, and this argument was the reason for the FAQ that made it so that the TH/SS only replaced the SB/PF (meaning the squad sergeant could never take one). This means that people will have modeled TH/SS + CML models only to find them invalidated by the new codex (not exactly an unprecedented event).

But I don't agree that it is invalidated.

 raiden wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Stalked21 wrote:
We DA players have been able to take terminators with TH/SS since 6th edition it's mainly cause we don't have assault terminators or standard terminators we have "do whatever you want terminators" I have 2 squads of 5 with TH/SS and Lightning claws both with CML on one of them GW worded it funny as hell but it IS legal

That isnt a rules argument, hjust an assertion, please follow the tenets

Please show how a TH/SS terminator has met the requirement to swap their stormbolter.

Please show where he is required to swap the storm bolter for the CML.

The end result is that no swap is made. However in order to get to that point you must have a storm bolter initially. It is a requirement.

Please show you are exempt from this requirement. Page and graph.

Raw is no
Rai is questionable in going to say no as well.

 Quanar wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So what if you take the Cyclone and then swap out he Storm Bolter for the Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield?

The (paraphrased) wording on the TH/SS is "replace all weapons", so that's a non-starter.

This codex has brought us full-circle to when the 6th edition one was released, and this argument was the reason for the FAQ that made it so that the TH/SS only replaced the SB/PF (meaning the squad sergeant could never take one). This means that people will have modeled TH/SS + CML models only to find them invalidated by the new codex (not exactly an unprecedented event).

The 6e DA FAQ has nothing to do with the 7e DA

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Quanar wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So what if you take the Cyclone and then swap out he Storm Bolter for the Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield?

The (paraphrased) wording on the TH/SS is "replace all weapons", so that's a non-starter.

This codex has brought us full-circle to when the 6th edition one was released, and this argument was the reason for the FAQ that made it so that the TH/SS only replaced the SB/PF (meaning the squad sergeant could never take one). This means that people will have modeled TH/SS + CML models only to find them invalidated by the new codex (not exactly an unprecedented event).

The 6e DA FAQ has nothing to do with the 7e DA

His point is, we could do it last edition thanks to the faq. Now we cant

 jokerkd wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Quanar wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
So what if you take the Cyclone and then swap out he Storm Bolter for the Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield?

The (paraphrased) wording on the TH/SS is "replace all weapons", so that's a non-starter.

This codex has brought us full-circle to when the 6th edition one was released, and this argument was the reason for the FAQ that made it so that the TH/SS only replaced the SB/PF (meaning the squad sergeant could never take one). This means that people will have modeled TH/SS + CML models only to find them invalidated by the new codex (not exactly an unprecedented event).

The 6e DA FAQ has nothing to do with the 7e DA

His point is, we could do it last edition thanks to the faq. Now we cant

But it is not clear 100% clear
It says Mat Replace Storm Bolter with one of the of the following.
The CML says it does not replace the Storm Bolter.
So after the Cyclone you still have a Power Fist and Storm Bolter
Yes it does say Replace all weapons with TH/SS or LC.
It also says One Model in 5 may Take a Heavy Weapon on a separate line.

2 things it states right next to the rule in a tiny 1 this weapon does not replace the models Storm Bolter! Pretty sure I've never seen a CML on a duel power fisted model. I honestly don't know how people keep saying "no" to this rule go read the bullets about 10 times and it should sink in guys!

Stalked21 wrote:
2 things it states right next to the rule in a tiny 1 this weapon does not replace the models Storm Bolter! Pretty sure I've never seen a CML on a duel power fisted model. I honestly don't know how people keep saying "no" to this rule go read the bullets about 10 times and it should sink in guys!

Its already been covered in this thread. Here it is again:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The end result is that no swap is made. However in order to get to that point you must have a storm bolter initially. It is a requirement.

Please show you are exempt from this requirement. Page and graph.