Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

While I am primarily a 40k player, Warmahordes is definitely on my radar for games I want to get into. In particular, I want to get into Cryx and/or Legion of Everblight. The Cryx models have a nice ghoulish steampunk black metal vibe to them, and the Legion models just look awesome, especially Typhon.

However, when asking local Warmahordes players about these factions most of the answers I got were that they were very nasty, almost to the point of being OP. I was told that Cryx has lots of undercosted and overpowered infantry and Legion ignores key parts of the rulebook, specifically for terrain and concealment. Furthermore, I heard that the tournament scene is dominated by these factions, which from my 40k background does not strike me as a good thing.

I have a good reputation at my FLGS and gaming scene for playing fair and not being a cheesemonger with my army. I don't want to take a risk on a new game system if I can't play with the models I like in polite company.

So are Cryx/Legion of Everblight broken? If they are, is there any way to play them that isn't super cheesy?

Nothing is 'broken' in WarmaHordes (except the fury transfer dynamic but that's another story).

Cryx & Legion have some very good builds, but so does every faction. warmahordes is a game built on exploiting the synergies of your faction and your tactical prowess, there are thousands of lists you could put together that aren't 'cheesy' it depends what lists you put together.

Just because Cryx has access to some good undercosted infantry, they're all 1 box models which are easy to strip off the table for someone who has a semi decent list, just because Legion don't have to worry about certain terrain pieces just means your opponent needs to tailor for that, that's all.

They probably are overpowered, but people will still play with you if you play them, and if you're worried about being able to "play down" there are an incredible number of ways to run lists that aren't optimal. If you think you love either faction, give them a try. Odds are pretty good you won't be winning all the games with them, regardless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, it's important to get what "overpowered" means in a Warmachine context. Generally it's going to mean that it can make lists - or a two-list pairing - that perform well against a disproportionately large set of opposing lists. It doesn't mean "can't be beaten" or even "can only be beaten by <insert mega cheese list here>".

An issue that might be more pertinent is some things just aren't a lot of fun to play against, and unfortunately certain things in Cryx and Legion are up there in potential frustration factor for your opponents. It all depends on what you run, how you approach the game, your opponents, etc etc. If you find you or your opponents aren't having fun with certain options, there are plenty that don't work the same way that you can try.

I have owned both Cryx and Legion armies, they eventually got sold off to fund my Khador. But, no, they are not over powered or broken. In a game about player skill and good decisions, you can run a great list poorly and run a poor list greatly.

I ran in both armies lists that are not "ideal", just because I like the way they played and looked. I did great with them, but when handed to another Cryx/Legion player they struggled with them. I will never turn down a game against either faction, and a lot of my regular opponents (who get crushed under the Red Warmachine muahahaha) play Cryx, Legion and Trollbloods. They are all great games, and they are good players too. Each faction has things that are " broken", but for the most part it is fairly well balanced. Maybe in the future there will be a few minor tweaks to fully balance it all, but don't be afraid to play the faction and army you want. Don't let the tournament scene force you to play something you won't enjoy as much. And if anybody complains that you play a certain faction, then they probably need to play more to learn how to counter certain models.

Neither Cryx or Legion are overpowered - both are very strong in the right hands and are two armies that you should expect to see on the top tables but they don't have any kind of stranglehold on the podium.

Cryx has incredibly powerful casters and cheap but effective infantry - which is relatively easy for even a newer player who has been put under pressure to leverage into a positive trade on the table. If you run into a list which crushes single wound infantry or has ways of shutting down your caster (something like Ravyn with 30 Strike Force - which will shoot you off the table if you come forward to try and influence the game) then Cryx will have a hard time. Its also worth noting that its very common for people to tool one of their lists to deal with Cryx (because they are a commonly used powerful faction)

Legion has incredible damage output and defensive options, Ravagores can randomly kill Warmachine casters and if you pick the right targets you can easily kill off the threats to your army and leave your opponent unable to retaliate. People love to hate on them because Eyeless Sight across the board is very powerful, but its really not that bad - as far as mechanics go Tough is far more frustrating to deal with. However if you don't go after the right targets you will have serious issues - while they hit hard Legion beasts are pretty soft if you can land some hits on them. A badly played Legion army is very easy to take apart - its usually low model count and if you get caught out and hit before you expect you will probably lose.

Tournaments aren't dominated by legion/cryx. Pretty much every faction grabs it's share of wins.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
While I am primarily a 40k player, Warmahordes is definitely on my radar for games I want to get into. In particular, I want to get into Cryx and/or Legion of Everblight. The Cryx models have a nice ghoulish steampunk black metal vibe to them, and the Legion models just look awesome, especially Typhon.

However, when asking local Warmahordes players about these factions most of the answers I got were that they were very nasty, almost to the point of being OP.

They definitely have some pretty nasty stuff going on that people complain about. So does every other faction in the entire game. Legion, Cryx and Circle get whinged about the most because they're factions that thrive off of punishing mistakes your opponent makes, while also being very easily punished themselves, which often means in a low skill level environment they tend to either win or lose by a landslide.

I was told that Cryx has lots of undercosted and overpowered infantry

Low cost? Generally, yes. Overpowered? Not at all. Cryx infantry is by and large very easy to kill compared to the infantry of other factions and not very accurate. Cryx armies tend to rely on hordes of infantry supported by a few key linchpin models, which is annoying to face but hardly overpowered. I find many people try to beat Cryx by just blasting at whatever is in sight which plays directly into the Cryx player's hands.

and Legion ignores key parts of the rulebook, specifically for terrain and concealment.

Greatly exaggerated. Eyeless Sight, first of all, is only available on Legion Warbeasts and the 3 versions of a Warlock, Lylyth, no infantry have access to it. A model with Eyeless Sight does not miss models with Stealth if greater than 5 inches away, ignores the +2 to defence a target gains from concealment, and lets it draw line of sight through forests, it does not allow them to ignore several common rules like buildings, obstructions and intervening models blocking line of sight, and defence bonuses from gaining cover or elevation. Eyeless Sight is most beneficial on ranged models and ranged warbeasts in Legion epitomise the tendency of the faction to be a fragile glass hammer with low model count due to how expensive their options are.

Furthermore, I heard that the tournament scene is dominated by these factions, which from my 40k background does not strike me as a good thing.

No faction dominates the tournament scene in terms of wins, in fact all factions have between a 45-55% win ratio in tournaments. Sometimes the meta is shaped by particular strategies employed by different factions, at the moment it is neither the crippling debuffs and huge amounts of infantry of Cryx or the devastating alpha strikes of Legion that shape the meta, but rather the incredibly tough and high armour builds of Trollbloods.

I have a good reputation at my FLGS and gaming scene for playing fair and not being a cheesemonger with my army. I don't want to take a risk on a new game system if I can't play with the models I like in polite company.

So are Cryx/Legion of Everblight broken? If they are, is there any way to play them that isn't super cheesy?

As a general rule, don't get years of experience under your belt then go fight newbies with your competitive tournament list and slaughter them. This is how you avoid playing Cryx, Legion, and any other faction in a non-super cheesy way. In fact, as a new player yourself, expect to get absolutely wrecked no matter what you bring to the table if your opponent isn't going easy on you, experience and tactical skill are far more important than the faction you play or the list you bring.

"Not Really" in the sense that taken as a whole the factions don't really have a broad advantage over other factions taken as a whole. With two good players, playing solid lists I wouldn't bank on the generic theoretical Cryx entrant over most anyone else.

"Yeah, Kinda" in the sense both in that the power floor tends to be lower: Most of their stuff is really strong so it'd hard to build something crappy, and that you need a much lower skills to get the most basic large return. That is a mediocre player can do very well with Cryx where they might struggle with other factions. In addition both their baseline strengths come from places that are easy to percieve as unfair, Cryx from debuffs (it sucks for your stuff to feel weak) and Legion simply ignoring many restrictions that other factions have.

In terms of Competitive viability they're fair and well balanced, but in a casual first impressions context it's easy for them to get out of whack and get easy wins with.

I think what gives those two factions a bad name is they have a lot of special rules you don't see in other factions and like to ignore lots of rules. Because of this, the learning curve for playing against them is higher and your normal tactics don't always work. This means a lot of new players struggle against them and hence the factions are considered OP and this stigma applies to them for along time.

But once you learn how the factions work they are no better or worse than other factions. ALL the factions have really cool casters, units, models, etc.

So in the end I encourage you to play what you like and encourage the players in your meta to learn how Cryx and Legion work instead of complaining. If your meta is too whiney hopefully you have some other options in your area.

Also, for Legion in particular, learn how eyeless sight really works. Most people think it ignores a lot more than it really does. Though in combination with sprays and pathfinder sometimes it really does suck.

Last but not least, another option is to have more than one faction. In fact most people I know who play with any sort of regularity have at least 2 factions. I have 5 myself, though 2 main ones. It not only allows you to learn the other factions, but gives you options when others start to complain.

Cryx is probably to strong. They do better then everyone else, pretty consistently. Legion is on the upper end but probably in line.

As a new player with Skorne facing Legion constantly, I gotta say either I'm absolutely terrible or Legion is easier for the new player. Dunno about actually skilled players though.

Yeah, Legion isn't overpowered, and neither is Cryx. They do play differently to other faction though. They just require you to adjust. I.e. take a more frontline infantry over stealth reliant guys, stock up on infantry shooting rather then armour cracking.

They do give you a good kick in the pants he first times though,

Another thing to consider is that the Legion and Cryx battle boxes are very strong in a newbie vs. newbie setting.

Are they overpowered? No. As has been said before, they do tend to have a higher floor than other factions and at least from my view, have very strong toolkits and punish your opponent harshly for making mistakes.

IIRC the cryx battle box has like 4 or 5 points over the others, which in a BB setting is a HUGE swing.

I have found just removing one of the bone chickens is a great balancer.

I think it's a 13 point box when the others are usually 11-12.

It's 14, but it's also 14 with 3 arc nodes on an already obnoxious spell caster.

I can see why people think they're OP but once you get the game down they really aren't. The other issue is the game is balanced around 35-50 pts iirc.

Some people just lack options at the battle box level.

14 points and Deneghra1? No wonder people hate Cryx if that's the first thing they're exposed to.

Denny 1 with THREE arc nodes...on Df15 jacks...

Granted they crumple like paper when hit but hitting is the issue.

Again I think just removing a deathripper is the best balance. Drops her down to 10 pts (much more in line) and removes an arc node (of which she still has two).

Yea, but in a Journeyman League, the first week they will be a hard opponent, after that at week two they start to balance out as other people start getting in good toolbox units and solos. At week three in all honesty having that much tied up in your battle group it can start to be a hindrance. It is hard to judge a faction just by the Battlebox because for the most part that isn't how that faction plays. Khador's give Sorscha's two heavies... Which she really only wants one, Trollbloods... Yeaaaa, three lights. It is okay but most people I know who play Trolls will never use it again except for Madrak and when they play in a Journeyman League. Thankfully with the newer alternate Battleboxes you can try a few other things out. Been running the Strakhov, Spriggan and Marauder for this Journeyman League to avoid mirror matches with the guys I have been teaching and it has been tons of fun for all. Plus, at week four I can start running Zerkova's Hunting Wolves every now and than for exposure to Theme Forces and for different ways to play the game.

But, sorry to get side tracked. Neither of those factions are OP. They just force people to learn another way to counter and play. Forces guys to change their tactics and think a little bit more because they are a little different. But, I like that. Anytime I have to do something different and learn from my mistakes is a good day.

http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/

Here are lists that won tourneys, as you can see for the most part its a pretty good spread.

Cryx has three or four casters that are incredibly powerful and frustrating for non competitive players to go against, legion has two similar ones that punish any mistake with a game loss typically. But so does cygnar, circle, trollbloods and menoth.

Every faction has strong stuff that can be used effectively to win games. Its going to come down to the skill of the player, familiarity with the lists and familiarity with your opponents lists.

Now if you get into the top 1% of players that know every model's rules and such backwards and forwards you start to get to where faction can make a much more significant difference and at those top level events, yes cryx and legion tend to do very well because of the rules they do get to ignore and some extremely powerful benefits from tier lists and specific casters.

But for getting into the game and having fun, pick the faction you like the look of and play them. Its far easier to make a low power list than an OP one

Are they broken? No.

What they are is "easier". It takes a little less skill to get to a point of competency. They are also a little harder to deal with. Especially for a newer player. Its because each game you need to adapt your tactics to your opponent. I can play the same list against 2 different opponents and play the list very differently.

Legion is balanced around the fact they ignore many of the basic terrain rules. So countering them requires a player to learn how to play around that. Something a newer player can have difficulty doing or seeing.

This game is incredibly deep as far as tactics and strategies. Some of the factions require deeper counters.


I assure you the tournament scene is not dominated by Cryx and Legion. its dominated by a specific cast of players. Look at various tournament results. You will see the same names year after year. And these players will usually have different factions they are playing currently. They may stick with a particular faction for a few years, then switch to a new one.

Cryx and Legion are currently more in vogue with the top tier players right now. leading to a slight favoring of them in tournament results. but give it 1-2 years and it will be a different faction.

I dunno about you guys, but the local tournaments in my area have Cryx players out the wazoo. It's a lot less surprising for Cryx to constantly place well when the faction makes up 30% of the player base.

There are practically no competing Cryx players where I play anymore. The truth is you need to play to your local meta. Tons of Cryx players? Cool, stack your lists with a way to deal with it.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I dunno about you guys, but the local tournaments in my area have Cryx players out the wazoo. It's a lot less surprising for Cryx to constantly place well when the faction makes up 30% of the player base.

Indeed. This also highlights the difference between national and local metas.

Because this game is heavily based on player skill, if the most skilled player in a meta plays X, then you'll have a lot of wins by X faction. If you have a lot of players of X, you'll probably have more wins of X faction too, although still accounting for player skill.

We have a bunch of cryx players in my local area but none of them win the local tournaments. I had a hard time winning against cryx in lower point games but once we got to the 35 and 50 pt games they weren't all that hard to beat.

Cryx sort of have the same problem that Vanilla space marines always had in 40k tournaments.

Namely that you have to have a gameplan for dealing with them or they'll ruin your day. Everyone brings a counter for them, as a result they are countered and don't win as much. More specifically, everyone brings a gameplan to counter a specific Cryx list. This list is pDenny's theme list Body and Soul.

Thus you won't see Body and Soul dominating the tournament scene overall, even though its a very powerful list, because people will bring stuff to counter it. As a Menoth player this matchup plays out like "Oh you got B+S, I drop my Purification caster, who also happens to be good against your other list too."

The factions that are considered 'Top Tier' currently are the big three of Cryx, Legion, and Circle.

Both Circle and Legion have a hit and run style of combat with powerful alpha strikes that are oft repeated throughout the game. Cryx is the debuff/recursion faction. All three of these are very hard things to find answers to, especially for the newer players which is why these three factions tend to float to the top.

They do have what are considered some of the top models/casters in the game (Denny1/2, Gaspy2, Ponyshade, Morvahna2, Kreuger2, Bradigus, Vayl2, Lylyth2, et al), but a good player with a plan can certainly beat them. Many of these casters are what I'd call 'High Floor', meaning it's pretty easy to do reasonably well with most of them in a tournament assuming basic competency. Add a good player into the mix controlling them and they become phenomenal.

Other factions certainly win/compete and take home tourney prizes.

The difference between "Overpowered" in WM/H vs 40K is usually (to use some hyperbole):

WM/H -- My OP Legion list has a 60% win rate versus tourney opponents instead of 50/50!

40K -- I table most players by turn 2/3, regardless of army list.

And, as mentioned before, the powerful lists get meta'ed against heavily. I don't go into a tourney without a plan for those big three factions (or Cygnar). That allows Dark Horses like Trolls to slip in and take the prize or someone running something off the wall. With good play those top factions can still win it all, too. Depends on pairings, how skilled the player is, and there are times the dice just say "No."

Cryx and Legion both have casters that tend toward a "control" style of play or a particularly nasty feat that hinders your troops rather than helping theirs. Doesn't matter what game you play, a lot of players are vocally annoyed about playing against that kind of thing. It will really depend on your playgroup the level of grumbling cryx/legion will cause.

Truthfully I kind of think any playgroup without someone willing to occasionally drop a strong tournament style cryx/legion list on the field is putting themselves at a disadvantage if anyone there has aspirations to tournament play.

@Grey Templar- B+S is a Denny2 theme list, not pDenny.