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Having read a fair bit about GW's high prices, which I believe are way more than they should be, I thought I'd asked people what games/models are the best value for money, on the market

All prices are in £

There are a few games I've never played, so feel free to chip in with recommendations. I've never played Malifaux before, but it looks a game that only needs a few models, so I'll be interested in hearing about that, and the prices involved.

Anyway, here are my best value for money, games IMO

Flames of War. One of the best value for money games around, due to the high availability of historics.

Mini rulebook £9 from ebay

5 panthers or 5 Shermans etc from PSC for £20

infantry company from PSC £20

= £49. Great value. I have an army list that allows you to field elefant tank destroyers, all you need is three models (1 for the HQ and 2 for 1 platoon. 2 platoon minimum doe not apply as elefants are 300 points each! ) , which you can pick up for around £8 each. Horribly imbalanced, but cheap as chips.


Judge Dredd. Love this game and brilliant value for money. Starter set can be bought for £60 that gives you rulebook and two gangs. Rulebook is jam packed with army lists, including mercenaries. You can buy a mercenary for 5, yes £5 and ally it with somebody else's gang!!!

Individual gangs are around £25 each to buy from discounters and that's all you need. going 50/50 with somebody on the starter set is another cheap option.

Great game and cheap to get into.

X-wing. Core set for £25 from discounters. Individual ships cheap as well, and pre-painted. Great value for money. Great game.


Anyway, feel free to post other great value for money games.

SAGA.
Split 3 boxes of £20 Gripping Beast Plastics with a friend and you've each got full forces. Relabel your own dice and use a tape measure or dowel for the measuring stick.

People don't really play 40K because they like wargames. 40K barely even qualifies as a wargame. Yes, the writers use terms like "shooting" and "assault" to describe the abstract mechanisms by which a player loses models. But it doesn't represent military strategy or the event of battle in any meaningful capacity. It's more like a weird geometric sport.
People buy GW stuff because they like GW stuff. So there isn't a point in looking for an alternative. If you want to own citadel's models, you pony up and pay the price. You do this because you want the models because you think they're cool. If you like some other company's models better, you go buy those instead.

There are people who buy non-citadel minis and use them to play GW games, but those people are missing the point so hard that it's not even funny. Even GW's fans aren't in love with their rules. It would make more sense to buy Citadel models and use them to play a completely unrelated game. Maybe one that moves a little bit faster and isn't so reliant on arbitrary faction-specific special rules.

If GW's rules were great, lots of people would play their games with proxies. They don't. But many people play the games as an excuse to show off their models, more or less.

 Azazelx wrote:
SAGA.
Split 3 boxes of £20 Gripping Beast Plastics with a friend and you've each got full forces. Relabel your own dice and use a tape measure or dowel for the measuring stick.

SAGA?

Is it fantasy or sci-fi? Or pulp? Or even steam punk?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

destrucifier wrote:
People don't really play 40K because they like wargames. 40K barely even qualifies as a wargame. Yes, the writers use terms like "shooting" and "assault" to describe the abstract mechanisms by which a player loses models. But it doesn't represent military strategy or the event of battle in any meaningful capacity. It's more like a weird geometric sport.
People buy GW stuff because they like GW stuff. So there isn't a point in looking for an alternative. If you want to own citadel's models, you pony up and pay the price. You do this because you want the models because you think they're cool. If you like some other company's models better, you go buy those instead.

There are people who buy non-citadel minis and use them to play GW games, but those people are missing the point so hard that it's not even funny. Even GW's fans aren't in love with their rules. It would make more sense to buy Citadel models and use them to play a completely unrelated game. Maybe one that moves a little bit faster and isn't so reliant on arbitrary faction-specific special rules.

If GW's rules were great, lots of people would play their games with proxies. They don't. But many people play the games as an excuse to show off their models, more or less.

I agree with this. A while ago, GW made Mordheim. A game that had good models and played great. Shame they don't do games like that, anymore.

I dont think you can get better than the two you have mentioned, Flames of war is a tenner and you can proxy almost any similar scale historic's with it as well, a chap I know fields just three tanks, cant remember what sort, but it worked out at about thirty five quid in total for him to start out, I know this because he repeatedly tells me !!

X-wing speaks for itself as well, the game is not bad at all, pretty streamline and you can pick up the ships all over in the UK i noticed, mainly because people know that Star wars is a sure fire seller, never the less it makes it a good cheap game to get into and its fun.

Dropzone commander has become quite popular as well, the starter set is £50 and you get quite a bit in that from what I could make out. The rules seems pretty straightforward too, ideal if you want to battle huge armies.

destrucifier wrote:
People don't really play 40K because they like wargames. 40K barely even qualifies as a wargame. Yes, the writers use terms like "shooting" and "assault" to describe the abstract mechanisms by which a player loses models. But it doesn't represent military strategy or the event of battle in any meaningful capacity. It's more like a weird geometric sport.
People buy GW stuff because they like GW stuff. So there isn't a point in looking for an alternative. If you want to own citadel's models, you pony up and pay the price. You do this because you want the models because you think they're cool. If you like some other company's models better, you go buy those instead.

There are people who buy non-citadel minis and use them to play GW games, but those people are missing the point so hard that it's not even funny. Even GW's fans aren't in love with their rules. It would make more sense to buy Citadel models and use them to play a completely unrelated game. Maybe one that moves a little bit faster and isn't so reliant on arbitrary faction-specific special rules.

If GW's rules were great, lots of people would play their games with proxies. They don't. But many people play the games as an excuse to show off their models, more or less.

Theres an awful lot of generalizations there man, much of it is just not true or just really subjective, you cannot really speak for "people that like GW" in such general terms really, although it would make things much easier

destrucifier wrote:


There are people who buy non-citadel minis and use them to play GW games, but those people are missing the point so hard that it's not even funny. Even GW's fans aren't in love with their rules. It would make more sense to buy Citadel models and use them to play a completely unrelated game. Maybe one that moves a little bit faster and isn't so reliant on arbitrary faction-specific special rules.

If GW's rules were great, lots of people would play their games with proxies. They don't. But many people play the games as an excuse to show off their models, more or less.

Good to know that myself and hundreds of others have been 'missing the point so hard it's not even funny' for so long. I enjoy playing 40k with all kinds of models, GW ones when a) I like them and b) I find the price acceptable and other manufacturer's if one or both of those aren't true. Take Imperial Guard for instance; the fact that both the cost and style of a Cadian army is very offputting doesn't stop me having enormous fun every time my Warzone/Mantic/WGF/GW Guard army hits the table. Similarly, I don't see how I'm 'missing the point' when my Anvil Space Marines go into action.

40k isn't perfect, but that doesn't stop it being enjoyable in the right circumstances. Yes, a lot of it is about displaying the models, hence the whole aesthetic side of the hobby, but that's enough structure there to do something beyond lining up toy soldiers, going 'BANG' and knocking them over. You obviously don't enjoy it, and that's perfectly fine, but please refrain from insulting the intelligence of anyone who chooses to play the game in a way that you don't see the point in.


Back on topic, I was recently shocked to find out how cheap the Batman miniatures game is to get into. Yes, upwards of £10 a mini can be alarming, but check this out:

Black Mask Crew: £20 from discounters
Deathstroke: £10 as above

Gives you a full 300 point list, with at least one model (Deathstroke) that can contribute 150 points to any other Bad Guy team you want to build.

Or this:

Arrow
Black Canary
Arsenal

Again, a full, fluffy and quite effective team for in the region of £30

A few more at the same cost:

Ra's Al Ghul and the League of Shadows, Talia Al Ghul
Batman, Nightwing, Robin



Others that are very cheap to get into are Deadzone (more minis than you'll ever use at once in a £20 box), Infinity (again, high cost per mini, but you can start with just one Starter Pack per player) and from the looks of it, Frostgrave (box+blister should cover you and then some!)

I like GW because of the ascetic of the minis and I do enjoy the rules, I just wish there was some stream lining so I could play faster and that their prices were not insane to build an army. I started daemons because my home store is offering 25% off fantasy armies .Side note, I really miss my guard.

Obviously a lot depends on the style of game.

On one end of the skirmish spectrum you have something like the new Frostgrave which will literally be £0 for a lot of wargamers. You probably already have fantasy/historical minis to use, don't need the rulebook as the rules are simple enough to be taught at your club in 10 minutes, and can download and print the magic cards and army roster for free.

At the other end cost-wise of skirmish scale you have something like Infinity which is expensive per model, but you don't need many (technically) and when you're having two-three hour blood, sweat and tears games (as mine all seem to be) you certainly feel like you're getting your money's worth. Another side of this is the detailed minis that you feel you have to spend a couple of evenings painting, so there is value there too.

For 'mass battle' I would say something like Fields of Glory, the new rulebook is expensive at £30 but it lets you play so many different eras of history and scenarios that it could effectively be all you ever need.

Have also been pleasantly surprised (or perhaps shocked would be better!) by how cheap Bolt Action is to get into with certain armies, even through Warlord's own site there are some cracking deals. Full size army, rules, everything you need to play for £100 or so is very reasonable.

Bolt action is one of the cheaper games to get started. 1000 pt starter set for $135 gets you well on your way to building your army. You can find the 1000 pt starter armies much cheaper with a search of the net.
X wing as others have said is a great game for the price. Most tournaments are run at 100 pts so your looking at buying 3-4 ships. $15 for most of the smaller fighters and they come painted.

Here is the cheapest war game we ever tried.

We downloaded the free Full Thrust space ship battle game rules .(Ground Zero games.)
Bought 12 plastic space ships and flying stands from EM4 minatures.(£2.55)
Bought a plain black table cloth from the locl Red Cross Charity shop.(£5)

A bit of imagination and painting we had, two fleets and and a sector of space to fight over...we had a blast!

There are lots of free to down load war game rules.And loads of minature companies available.
And if you have the time to shop around and pick and mix.You can get some great value for money.

I know some people like the convenience of a 'starter box' for a game.And there are lots of good one available.
But is not the only option out there.

Wrath of Kings is really good value and has excellent miniatures.

Value for money is subjective. A game that costs £200 may give you the same value for money as one that cost £30 depending on what you think of the game, the models, how much fun you have and what kind of games you enjoy.

Almost anything by Osprey for small Skirmish.

Ronin: Rulebook £10, Northstar Buntai £25, Another Buntai for a friend £25 . Thats £60 quid for two people less if you use Perry or Dixon miniatures. More if you use steel fist or kensei

Daisho (Northstar not osprey but very similar price wise) Same as Ronin but with a £15 rule book

Frostgrave: Rulebook £15, box of twenty soldiers £20, Apprentice and Wizard set £6, Anotehr set for a friend to play £6. Thats £47 for two people. Less if you already have fantasy miniatures.

They have similar sets for IHMN and On Seven Seas.


Large scale games like Flames of War and Kings of war can be gotten into for a reasonable cost considering how much is on the table. especial if you use plastic solider company or the open fire set for Flames of war and you use the starter pack deals or historical miniatures for Kings of war.

Flames of war can get very expensive though and prices can vary a great deal based on your list. I single platoon can easily cost over £30 if its based on battlefront vehicles like my BOFORS platoon was (luckily it was a gift). However a box of plastic solider British Infantry cost me about £20 and that makes up three platoons in my army. Which certainly shows you can very much tailor a list and the manufacturers you use to cost less money considering £32 worth of Bofors is 175 points and yet £20 worth of infantry from Plastic soldier company makes three 180 point platoons.

Roughly my 2000 point flames of war Army along with the rules cost me between £150 and £200 (Would have been less it didnt cost £35 on an anti air platoon that doesnt seem very good atm) which isn't cheap compared to the small skirmish games earlier in this post but for the models you get and the fun I am currently having with the game its good value for money for me. However for someone else that might be way too much to get into a wargame.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
SAGA.
Split 3 boxes of £20 Gripping Beast Plastics with a friend and you've each got full forces. Relabel your own dice and use a tape measure or dowel for the measuring stick.

SAGA?

Is it fantasy or sci-fi? Or pulp? Or even steam punk?

SAGA is a dark ages skirmish game, though there's also a Crusades supplement Crescent & Cross - http://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/Saga.html

Essentially you have a warlord and some small groups of followers and you roll a few dice each turn to get special abilities. I've only had a demo game of it but it's a brilliant mechanic and works really well as a game.


My best value game would be Malifaux - Rules are £10, a starter faction is about £30 and you're good to go. But there's lots of smaller skirmish games you can get into mega cheap. Empire Of The Dead, In Her Majesty's Name, Ronin, Frostgrave.

For mass battle games, you can't knock 10/15mm for anything.

SAGA is one of my favourite rulesets in any setting.

It has just a wonderfully well designed set of mechanics. Easy to pick up but a great level of depth.

That it's so cheap to play (and there are even 'fantasy' rules out there for things like Lord of the Rings factions, if historicals aren't your cup of tea) makes it an absolute no-brainer. If you regard yourself as a serious wargamer you should give the game a try, it's that simple

Infinity. $100 for a 300pt army. Free rules. Free army builder.
Or, $120 for the starter box with comes with two forces, terrain, tokens and templates.

Well, thanks for all the recommendations from everybody.

Can't believe I overlooked Bolt Action and Batman

Frostgrave and Dropzone commander sound pretty good as well.

SAGA is something I definitely want to get into. I've probably got the minis I need laying around somewhere

I'll bang the Judge Dredd drum once again. Great fun to play and cheap to buy.


To be fair to GW, Island of Blood was a decent starter, and even Dark Vengeance is ok for newbies or casual gamers.

Anything based on historical stuff has good value per model, as there's no copyright and there's multiple companies doing them.

For example, as mentioned, Bolt Action for 28mm WW2 has great prices, as they are producing them in plastic - typically 30-40 good quality infantry models £24-30 (list price). That's £0.75 per 28mm model.

For it has without a doubth been the Hail Caesare & Pike & shot lines from Warlord games.
Both gives great value for the price one pays for the basic troop types and whatever else one may need. That added to the great customer service that Warlord offers only makes my opinion of them that much better

Fantasy rules for free:
http://freewargamesrules.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Fantasy

plus

50 fantasy models for £7.70:
http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Copy_of_Fantasy.html

For WWII gaming in either 15 or 28mm, check out the plastic troops from Wargames Factory. Terrible box art and a somewhat limited selection, but quite nice minis (a massive leap forward from some of their earlier offerings). Seems they ended their 50% off sale, but boxes of 30 troops in 28mm list for a little over $20 (a bit less from discount re-sellers). 15mm are the same cost for roughly triple the number.

With that sale, I got 60 troops (some special weapons and officers are included on the sprues) each for Russians, Americans, and Germans bought AND shipped for a hair over $70. Even paying MSRP, $50 is enough to give two players a solid base of bodies to flesh out Bolt Action lists.

Malifaux you're looking at around $100-150 for either a good chunk of options in one faction or a few in two (or both, if you take a set that can overlap two factions), or completely flesh out one thematic group.

It's on the pricey side by model count, but has incredible replay value and, while I've put a bunch of cash in to it since it's kind of designed to promote faction ADD and it's fun, I could also safely say that my favorite sub-group would probably cost around $150 and I've played dozens of games with it. (Umm, sorry, don't know what Mali sells for in the UK, but conversion says £60-100.)


I know sedition wars might be a sore spot for some, but it's very cheap and the errata got it to the point of a balanced/fun game instead of "spam the grunts, the game" which, along with early bad mechanics, really bogged down what was a nice little scenario-based skirmisher.

Also, another point to x-wing.

Necromunda and Mordheim. The rules are online somewhere and any basic unit box from GW gives you a playable force.

-

 Paradigm wrote:


Good to know that myself and hundreds of others have been 'missing the point so hard it's not even funny' for so long. I enjoy playing 40k with all kinds of models, GW ones when a) I like them and b) I find the price acceptable and other manufacturer's if one or both of those aren't true.

You're still missing the point. You play with the models you like because you like them. You don't rub your hands together with glee over how you beat GW's "system". Some people will literally buy the rules and play the game using random flea market toys. Meanwhile a million other companies are sending their shills all over the internet to advertise their games as an "alternative" to GW, as if GW is like petroleum and we're all forced to buy it.

If you are not a moderator, NEVER tell other users how to write their posts. It is always your choice whether or not to take offense at a comment.

destrucifier wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:


Good to know that myself and hundreds of others have been 'missing the point so hard it's not even funny' for so long. I enjoy playing 40k with all kinds of models, GW ones when a) I like them and b) I find the price acceptable and other manufacturer's if one or both of those aren't true.

You're still missing the point. You play with the models you like because you like them. You don't rub your hands together with glee over how you beat GW's "system". Some people will literally buy the rules and play the game using random flea market toys.

And? If people are enjoying GW games without paying GW prices then all power to them! If people are playing with all GW models, the same. Playing (insert company here) game with GW models, the same again. It's not about beating a system or anything, it's just people having fun with a hobby in a way they can afford and enjoy.

Meanwhile a million other companies are sending their shills all over the internet to advertise their games as an "alternative" to GW, as if GW is like petroleum and we're all forced to buy it.

That's just business. For the vast majority of the market those companies are selling to, GW is the first (and sometimes only) exposure to wargaming, so naturally they'll try and compete for that audience via comparison with GW. Not only does offering an 'alternative' game to GW gamers make them more likely to make the switch (as they'll already have some/most of what they need to play), but it means they can target a demographic that are already inherently interested in wargaming as they are GW customers, rather than selling to a wider public that largely isn't bothered.

GW games are, for better or for worse, the default. While you (encouragingly) are seeing more and more people picking Infinity/Malifaux/Kings of War ect as their first step into the hobby, by and large people are still starting out with Warhammer/40k/a few years ago LotR. Mantic/CB/Wyrd et al don't have the funding or the exposure to compete with GW for the 'new blood' audience in any meaningful capacity, so it makes sense that they instead focus their marketing on the people already interested, invested and potentially disillusioned with GW.

If you are not a moderator, NEVER tell other users how to write their posts. It is always your choice whether or not to take offense at a comment.

I'm not telling you how to write your post, I'm just politely asking that you don't mock/condescend people just because they are, in your eyes, 'missing a point' that may or may not exist. I'm not sure how being told that the way I approach my hobby is 'missing the point so much it's not even funny' is supposed to not be seen as rude/offensive.

destrucifier wrote:



If you are not a moderator, NEVER tell other users how to write their posts. It is always your choice whether or not to take offense at a comment.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing here?

For mass battle, Kings of War with the EM4 minis has to be the best bet currently.

£46 gets you 300 minis to completely fill out a table.

For skirmish, anything low model count and free rules is good!

Necromunda and 10 gangers for around £5 from EM4 and you're sorted, they even come with interchangeable weapons, with metal add-ons if you want heavies: http://www.em4miniatures.com/acatalog/Science_Fiction.html

Coreheim + box of Empire Milita = sorted. Well, until GW discontinues the entire existing warhammer range in a few months anyway. :p

 carlos13th wrote:

destrucifier wrote:



If you are not a moderator, NEVER tell other users how to write their posts. It is always your choice whether or not to take offense at a comment.

Isn't that exactly what you are doing here?

Take it as a suggestion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I agree with this. A while ago, GW made Mordheim. A game that had good models and played great. Shame they don't do games like that, anymore.

Necromunda and Gorkamorka were also great. But all of those games were more or less complete. GW couldn't really make any more money off of them without ruining perfection. People say they're greedy but they've gotta have some standards.

Somebody's working on a new Mordheim PC game right now, oddly enough.

Really surprised no ones mentioned Firestorm Armada

Price per mod is a little high but the quality is fantastic

Also a patrol fleet is about £35 and that's about 500 - 600 points most games are 800 - 1200 so that's half the models you;ll ever need

2 or 3 £15 - £20 packs and you've spent what £100 and have a solid playable army - and the it's just adding more options and expanding as you wish or adding more allies and other armies

Rules, all free online

Necromunda.

Rules: free
One box of Cadians: £15
One Cadian command squad: £13

And there you go. One of the most fun games you'll ever play. You can buy any sci-fi minis you want, for example I got 20 Shock Troops from Wargames Factory for like £8 and they make 18 (I think) minis that are perfect for Enforcers.