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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




I am another disheartened ex-GW customer. I won't be buying anything else from them after 20 odd years as a committed customer. I don't really want to get into their company strategy, financials or how good or bad AoS is.

What I really want is advice from people who have tried alternatives. I have looked carefully into WMH and like what i see, but haven't really looked at Kings of War which looks like a similar game to fantasy, some would say completely copied from fantasy in terms of the armies, imagery etc! The rules look interesting as well.

So I want to hear from people that actually play these games please.

Cheers.
   
Made in gb
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Go play them. They're great games.

Nothing more to be said, really.

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Steelcity

They're very different games.. If you want to play WFB then you play KOW but if you want to play a skirmish game with individual models then warmachine is good.. so are many other games. Pretty much any non-GW game puts way more effort into rules and playability.

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KoW and WMH are very different games.

I prefer Kings of War - but then I came from historical wargaming back in the seventies. I like maneuver based regimental games.

If you already have a Warhammer Fantasy army then I would say that you should go for Kings of War - rules are free, and you can use your existing army.

If you are starting fresh... I would still go with Kings of War - but that is purely personal taste, both are excellent games.

WMH costs more per model, but you need fewer of them, which makes painting a faster thing than it is for Kings of War.

Either way, check out the Mantic website, and download the free version of the rules - makes it easy to see if it is something that you will like.

And download the quickstart rules for WMH as well - not the full rules, but enough to give you a feel for the game.

Kings of War is more about armies, WMH is about (super)heroes, mostly.

The Auld Grump

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Well, I cannot tell about KOW but WMH is a great game.
We play it at a very high competitive level in our gaming group.
The rule set is very tight and Steamroller provides very nice scenarios.
If you want a highly competitive army, go for Cryx, Legion, Circle or Mercenaries.

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Once you get off the GW nipple you will soon realize what great games you have been missing out of all these years.

KoW you can use your old WHFB army and the rules are free. So if you have the models it's a cheap game to get involved in.

Warmachine/hordes I would go to your local game store or club and ask for a demo game. It's a great game with a steep learning curve, don't expect to win right away.
   
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There are OTHER choices available, you know, than simply Kings of War, or WMH (Warmaster Historical???).

If you are looking for a game that is unit-based, then Kings of War does (sort of) fit that role (it at least pays lip-service to such better than did WFB). But many of the Fantasy Supplements for Historical games tend to actually play better.

If you are looking for Skirmish Games, then there is also no shortage (War Machine/Hoards???). But there are better choices in things like the Fantasy Rules for Saga.

MB
   
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I would say get both. But, if you already have a warhammer fantasy army, all you really need is the KOW rulebook and you can use your old models in a new ranked-battle game, so that's easy. GW pretty much just handed Mantic free money when they killed the old Warhammer, and I think KOW is going to grow a lot over the next few years.

If if you don't already have an army or you're more into 40k I would say go with Warmahordes. It's got a great following and great models, and lots of diversity between warmachine and hordes, just decide if you want monsters or mechs and pick up an army box

 
   
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BeAfraid wrote:
If you are looking for a game that is unit-based, then Kings of War does (sort of) fit that role (it at least pays lip-service to such better than did WFB). But many of the Fantasy Supplements for Historical games tend to actually play better.
Such as?
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




thanks guys, great stuff. I do play 40k and enjoy it but to me it is becoming a bit of a shoot off and more about bigger and bigger and more expensive models. I don't particularly like the formation/detachment rules, they seem overly complicated and overpowered.

But i do like the look of KOW but there doesn't seem much to the army selection element of the game which is something i enjoy. There also doesn't seem to be much depth to the armies, my impression is that it is a bit of a pushing blocks around a battlefield game. I suppose you could say that is what all these games are about!

WMH looks like a fantastic game to me. I am already reading through the rules. My only gripe is that the battlefields and armies don't have that epic feel. The terrain seems minimal and the armies seem small. Having said that I love the look of a Circle army and the depth of rules and army design really appeal to me...
   
Made in gb
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What is WMH, dont be too lazy to post whole words.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/29 16:37:19


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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I think both are great options, but Warmachine / Hordes is a more "different" game than what you'd be used to. I think it's very worth it, but get a demo game and see what you think!

I'm getting into KoW myself
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




 Orlanth wrote:
What is WMH, dont be too lazy to post whole words.


It's called an abbreviation, presumably you write in full Do It Yourself, British Broadcasting Corporation and United States of America. The rest of us abbreviate things. Warmachine Hordes becomes WMH.

Try it sometime.
   
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Biggest problem with either game is finding people that play it in your area. Check your FLGS, or see if there is any clubs nearby first before committing.

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Been Around the Block




I have a local active gaming club where they play WMH and 40k, so that's not such a problem.
   
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Look into Malifaux too. I've played them all, and Malifaux has grabbed on and won't let go!

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Norn Iron

Leaving GW: KOW or WMH?


Mayhem or Legions of Battle, or Lion Rampant.

BeAfraid wrote:There are OTHER choices available, you know,


Yup, like Mayhem or Legions of Battle, or Lion Rampant.

than simply Kings of War, or WMH (Warmaster Historical???)...

(War Machine/Hoards???)


The second one. Warmachine/Hordes. When you're on a GW forum where only big-box package games exist, always assume it's Warmachine/Hordes, not Warmaster Historical.

dragonelf wrote:
But i do like the look of KOW but there doesn't seem much to the army selection element of the game which is something i enjoy. There also doesn't seem to be much depth to the armies, my impression is that it is a bit of a pushing blocks around a battlefield game. I suppose you could say that is what all these games are about!


I'm gonna have to register a bit of confusion here. What army selection element do you mean? I assume it's the picking out of equipment choices, magic items, units with particular special rules etc.?
I've got to be honest, I'm a bit biased, but that's part of the reason I soured on WFB. Army list building can be easily filed under 'strategy', but for me WFB was too skewed towards it, turning it into a metagame that seemed more important than the actual game. (Reports of tourney players looking at eachother's lists and calling it there and then bear it out for me)
I can empathise with your wariness that KoW seems a bit bare-bones in comparison. I used to feel the same way when 40K and WFB were the only wargames I was familiar with. For me the apparently 'shallow' game was Epic: Armageddon (another very viable option, downloadable rules, lots of lists and new proxy minis about) - the level of list customisation and special rules was a lot less than what I was used to. Then I played it and realised it was actually quite deep. The reality was that the balance between strategic choices and tactical mechanics was a lot 'healthier' than in GW's core two. I've also seen gamers recently transferred from WFB to KoW express their surprise at how much they enjoyed the same kind of balance in that game.

'Cos the thing is, KoW is an example of what most mass battle games are like. Mechanics and other details differ, but most are built from the ground up to represent the 'unit' as the smallest basic element, moving, shooting, fighting, taking hits/casualties/shaken results and breaking/fleeing/dying as a whole, and put some depth into how they interact according to positioning and basic type. Of course WFB did some of the latter too, but IMO it was a little overshadowed by special rules and all the focus on casualty removal (i.e. individual models as the smallest basic element) - rank bonus, outnumbering, combat res, etc. Holdovers from it's origins as a smaller, skirmish, semi-rpg game, making WFB a bit of an odd duck among mass battle games, despite it's greater recognition among fantasy gamers. Might not surprise you if I say I found all that to be a bit of a faff too, at the army sizes of latter editions. Although at the same time, it's one small thing that didn't entirely prevent WFB from being an exercise in 'pushing blocks' too! (I mean, what were movement trays for? )

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
BeAfraid wrote:
If you are looking for a game that is unit-based, then Kings of War does (sort of) fit that role (it at least pays lip-service to such better than did WFB). But many of the Fantasy Supplements for Historical games tend to actually play better.
Such as?


Well, Mayhem and Legions of Battle started out as fantasy games, so they don't count in that regard. But I can think of official fantasy expansions or versions of Impetus (Basic Impetus Fantasticus) and the DBX series (Hordes of the Things; BeAfraid here's writing his own fantasy rules that take some cues from DBX, which I'll be interested to see) off the top of my head. There's also Shadow Storm, a recent, unofficial but Rick-Priestly-approved, fantasy expansion for Hail Caesar.

I won't say they play better than KoW (for one thing, I haven't even read two of them, though I'm familiar with HC), but I kind of agree with an aspect of what BA's saying, though applied to WFB. That became about magic and monsters to the point that basic infantry (even wild 'n' weird things like goblins, gors and lizard-people) needed extra special rules just to survive. I'm not sure how heavy KoW went with things like monsters and monstrous infantry after the 1st ed book (I know there are ogres, trolls, giant werewolves, celestials etc., but how heavily do they feature in respective armes? I know 2nd ed is still magic light, too) but for fantasy expansions of historical games, they're already well worked-out with infantry and cavalry in mind. The monsters and magic are generally just a bit of extra gravy over the standard gameplay.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/07/29 18:03:15


I'm sooo, sooo sorry.

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dragonelf wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
What is WMH, dont be too lazy to post whole words.

It's called an abbreviation, presumably you write in full Do It Yourself, British Broadcasting Corporation and United States of America. The rest of us abbreviate things. Warmachine Hordes becomes WMH.
Try it sometime.


Actually its an acronym, generally only used when people know what the subject matter is. BBC and USA needs no introduction, WMH does, and several people asked. As a rule, if the acronym is not commonly known define it.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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Been Around the Block




An acronym is when an abbreviation spells out a new word. Like UNICEF, NATO or OPEC.

We are talking about different tabletop wargames. I didn't think that WMH required explanation. Apologies. You are the first person to ask me what it means but I appreciate it may not have been obvious. You may have inquired in a slightly more polite way in my opinion.

   
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Don't leave GW, just go try other games. If they're what you want to play, then things will resolve themselves organically.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




I haven't left GW so to speak but I am not really interested in their current games. AoS to me is a very poor game. To reboot fantasy is fine, but to expect people to be on board with it and to re-invest in brand new armies and effectively start again requires some respect for existing players and a system for the new models to fit into. The rules for AoS are frankly insulting. I dont want to be a games tester or a games designer. I am not interested in balancing their game, especially if they're not!

As for 40k, yes i still play it, but the recent armies seem to be part of a growing power creep designed to get people to buy more models rather than develop of improve the game. If GW want to be a models company then fine, but I have no desire to buy models for ornamental value. I will give my hard earned money over to whoever wants it, I am happy to spend, but I want a game that I will enjoy to use those models in.

Anyway, rant over, I'm sure you've heard it all before. As I always say, if you enjoy whatever game you are playing then all power to you.

I think your advice is good Nomeny, I will try both WMH and KOW, and see. Problem is that there isn't much of a KOW scene near me, which probably makes my decision for me.
   
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Since you know there is a WMH scene I'd recommend you go with it, over KOW. You don't want to invest in something you'll never get a chance to play.

Like where I live your choices are MTG, D&D/Pathfinder, and 40K

I'd like to play KOW or WMH, or anything else, but there is zero presence of the game in this state let alone a local store I can go to.

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Norn Iron

dragonelf wrote:
Problem is that there isn't much of a KOW scene near me, which probably makes my decision for me.


Well then you're in a great position to start a Mayhem or Legions of Battle scene.

I'm sooo, sooo sorry.

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Zero presence? Why should that stop you? What you need and have to do is talk to local players and gaming friends/actual friends and talk things over. Find new systems the group is interested in and go from there. You know how I started a league for Bolt Action and it is now more common than 40k and leagues above AoS, I sat down with the rulebook and talked about it. We bought armies and played the game and loved it. Thats how you start a league and a new scene. If you are to afraid to build something then toughen up buttercup because you won't get anywhere with that attitude.

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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
BeAfraid wrote:
If you are looking for a game that is unit-based, then Kings of War does (sort of) fit that role (it at least pays lip-service to such better than did WFB). But many of the Fantasy Supplements for Historical games tend to actually play better.
Such as?


• Lack of a Ground Scale
• Lack of a representational scale (do figures represent 1 man, 5 men, 20 men, 100 men???)
• Movement rules that would be impossible for formed units to perform (see sideways movement) - even abstracted it is problematic, due to the lack of a ground scale
• Interpenetration rules are too lenient (have a look at what happens to formed troops when units interpenetrate) - this is one Reason why the Republican and Early Roman Armies were so effective, is that they have limited, managed interpenetration
• Arbitrary movement and shooting distances/ranges - without an established ground scale, the justification for these is problematic, and clashes with the unit formations that tend to be too deep for infantry, and too shallow for mounted
• Shooting tends to be too effective compared to reality (are physics THAT different in fantasy worlds; if so, why do those physics not carry over to any other area, if they are not consistent then the game is exactly what I claimed "pretending to be unit-based," because the "units" are nothing more than arbitrary markers that don't really mean anything)
• The "Banners and Musicians" again will really only affect either very small, or very large units (either a group of 100 to 200 men, or a group of 2,000 - 10,000 men). Again, the lack of a ground or figure representation means that this is an entirely arbitrary feature bolted on without any justification or grounding.


That is just off the top of my head.

They basically suffer from the same problems as WFB in this regard.

Some people don't like to think about this sort of stuff.

But, I tend to think about that kind of stuff, seeing as I want there to be some sort of internal cohesion, as much as possible, to be operational in the fantasy worlds I involve myself with.

I don't know if the OP has ever considered these things, and if maybe upon thinking about it, might want to explore rules that are not simply arbitrary arrangements of rules to produce a rock-paper-scissors arrangement of a game.... And thus might want to look into rules that do start from the point of "How can we best abstract the effects we observe in reality, adding in constraints or flexibility for various fantasy elements? And how do those fantasy elements work within the universe in which they exist?" Rather from the "Here is what we wish to happen, how can we force this outcome from the rules?"

MB


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vermis wrote:
others wrote:stuff....


Responses....


AllSeeingSkink wrote:
BeAfraid wrote:
If you are looking for a game that is unit-based, then Kings of War does (sort of) fit that role (it at least pays lip-service to such better than did WFB). But many of the Fantasy Supplements for Historical games tend to actually play better.
Such as?


Well, Mayhem and Legions of Battle started out as fantasy games, so they don't count in that regard. But I can think of official fantasy expansions or versions of Impetus (Basic Impetus Fantasticus) and the DBX series (Hordes of the Things; BeAfraid here's writing his own fantasy rules that take some cues from DBX, which I'll be interested to see) off the top of my head. There's also Shadow Storm, a recent, unofficial but Rick-Priestly-approved, fantasy expansion for Hail Caesar.


The latter was titularly Hail Sauron, until they had to worry about IP, and it was not a bad system.

And, the rules I am writing (written), are actually just a minor supplement for a game that has already been written (by Nicolos Protonotaries) called Hoplon. The Supplement is currently under the working Title Fantasticon (sticking with the greek roots). It is basically taking DBA/DBM/HotT and adding proper unit and moral rules to it, and some amount of equipment influences or effects back into (things like armor, or if you have some unusual weapon for a given, traditional, type of troop). The rules as they stand require almost no modification to get decent Fantasy troops created.

But, I have added some things that look like they will filter back into the main rules, such as Terrifying Troops, Heavy and/or 2-handed Weapons, Unit Disruption (as opposed to "disorder" - a form of minor moral or cohesion effect), as well as changing a few terms.

But everything you mentioned there tends to be a better abstraction of actual unit-combat than Kings of War, or WFB (or WAB), both of which make a pretense of being such, but due to the lack of an actual scale tend to fail in some regards (Hail Caesar may suffer from this as well. I know it was an issue that was MUCH discussed when he did Warmaster Historical, and learned the importance of why scale matters to troops being able to provide rear-support or not. So he may have begun to address that issue).


If anyone wishes to see the basic Historical Rules upon which the Fantasy Supplement is based, I can email them a PDF of those rules. I would just need an email address.

Currently, though, all of the Fantasy Rules are simply noted scribbled on a sheet of paper, with a modified QRS (Quick Reference Sheet) that contains the relevant modifiers for the few Fantasy Traits we have added.

We have recognized the need for adding actual "Magic" to the system (because not everyone plays almost exclusively in Middle-earth, or Hyboria, where battlefield magic was rather rare), and are looking at something akin to the old Runequest System for inspiration (Differing sorts of magic - summoned spirits, or Shamanic; Divine Intervention, such as with Clerics; and Sorcerous Magic, or Conjuring).

If you read some of Greg Stafford's works on the subjects of magic in Fantasy Worlds, a LOT of it is of a type that people do not even realize they are using magic (the Shamanic and Divine sorts especially). These are typically simple prayers or benedictions to spirits or gods for protection, or help in a struggle, where the effects are too subtle for any real notice. Such as a warrior calling out the name of their God while leaping into the fray, or a priest praying with a unit prior to forming for battle could both be types of spells where a player would know that a spell had been cast, but the people in the game would just think this a typical part of their life, and would not realize that the extra sharpness of their sword, or the toughness of their armor was attributed to spiritual aid of some sort. It is only Sorcery that is something that is explicitly otherworldly, and where a pronounced, noticeable effect would be usually seen (but not always - again, there will be instances where the "magic" is too minor for notice).

So... eventually, we need to sit down and draft up actual formal rules for magic in the game. And, we need to do so for the various different worlds, which we don't have IPs for, in a way that it is clear for what they are intended.

MB

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/30 02:55:55


 
   
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No need to write off WFB quite that quickly.

Warhammer AU just dropped their WFB 8.5 rules. Some small, simple changes but nothing really radical.

Over on the Warhammer Forum the Swedish Comp and ETC are discussing their '9th Age' WFB changes. This project looks significantly more extensive.... and has the full authority of the Swedish Comp and ETC groups behind it.

GW may have abandoned Warhammer Fantasy. We may have decided to abandon GW in retaliation. But that doesn't mean we have to abandon Warhammer Fantasy ourselves...

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dragonelf wrote:

WMH looks like a fantastic game to me. I am already reading through the rules. My only gripe is that the battlefields and armies don't have that epic feel. The terrain seems minimal and the armies seem small. Having said that I love the look of a Circle army and the depth of rules and army design really appeal to me...

Circle is a great faction to play.
However, note that Horde armies are a bit more involved to play than Warmachine ones, at least for a beginner.
This is due to the fury management. Focus management is much simpler.

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 wuestenfux wrote:
dragonelf wrote:

WMH looks like a fantastic game to me. I am already reading through the rules. My only gripe is that the battlefields and armies don't have that epic feel. The terrain seems minimal and the armies seem small. Having said that I love the look of a Circle army and the depth of rules and army design really appeal to me...

Circle is a great faction to play.
However, note that Horde armies are a bit more involved to play than Warmachine ones, at least for a beginner.
This is due to the fury management. Focus management is much simpler.


Haven't played since first edition, but cryx is like Khorne, killing is good! you get soul tokens! and a lot of cryx warmachines are geared towards close combat anyway.

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 wuestenfux wrote:
dragonelf wrote:

WMH looks like a fantastic game to me. I am already reading through the rules. My only gripe is that the battlefields and armies don't have that epic feel. The terrain seems minimal and the armies seem small. Having said that I love the look of a Circle army and the depth of rules and army design really appeal to me...

Circle is a great faction to play.
However, note that Horde armies are a bit more involved to play than Warmachine ones, at least for a beginner.
This is due to the fury management. Focus management is much simpler.


It is really the difference between resource management (WM) and risk management (H). I prefer the later so Hordes is a better choice for me personally. I've never quite gotten the hang of resource management, so I've always had a harder time in games when using a WM faction.
   
 
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