Switch Theme:

[2750] - Empire - 8th Edition - New to Fantasy  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in au
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

Hello all, I used to play Fantasy around 15 years ago and the guys who I play 40K with have decided to get into some Old World shenanigans recently.

I've played a couple of games on the weekend at 1000pts and got destroyed quite heartily.

We've stepped it up to 2750 points for the next game, that pretty much incorporates every model I own

Question 1: Is this list remotely viable?

Question 2: What would be a solid 1000 point list made using these models?



- Army Size 2750


Lords

General of the Empire
Full Plate Armour, Imperial Griffon, Magic Items, Pistol, Shield
Hold the Line!

Heroes

Battle Wizard
Lore of Life, Warhorse, Wizard Level 2

Captain of the Empire
Full Plate Armour, Shield
Hold the Line!
Warhorse
Barding
Swiftstride

Master Engineer
Hochland Long Rifle, Light Armour
'Stand Back, Sir!', Master of Ballistics

Warrior Priest
Great Weapon, Heavy Armour
Battle Prayers, Divine Power, Righteous Fury

Warrior Priest
Great Weapon, Heavy Armour
Battle Prayers, Divine Power, Righteous Fury
Warhorse
Barding
Swiftstride

Witch Hunter
Brace of Pistols
Accusation, Grim Resolve, Magic Resistance (*), Tools of Judgement

Core

Crossbowmen
20x Crossbowmen
Regimental Unit

Knightly Orders
Champion, 8x Knightly Orders, Lance and Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer
Swiftstride

Knightly Orders
Champion, 10x Knightly Orders, Lance and Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer
Swiftstride

Swordsmen
Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, 40x Swordsmen
Regimental Unit

Special

Flagellants
30x Flagellants
Frenzy, The End is Nigh!, Unbreakable

Great Cannon

Greatswords
Champion, 25x Greatswords, Musician, Standard Bearer
Regimental Unit, Stubborn

Rare
Helblaster Volley Gun

Helblaster Volley Gun

Replies greatly appreciated. Cheers!
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



Ann Arbor, MI

Hey, welcome back to the hobby. 8th was quite a fun edition of fantasy and I'm sad that it's officially gone (although like you I will be playing it for years to come).

First off, I am a High Elf/Vampire Counts player but my dad plays Empire so I have a lot of experience playing against them. Here are my takes:

1. For a 2750 point list, I don't believe this list is going to be particularly effective... it looks like a fun list to play with fluffy units like the Flagellants in it but it is not the most efficient use of points for what you are getting. I love the fluff for flagellants, but honestly they are one of the Empire's worst units... they are really expensive to field for a bunch of 1W models that have no armor (and so they die in droves). Couple this with the fact that they kill themselves each round of combat to power up and they don't tend to stick around very long or make their points back. As far as the rest of your army goes, it has the start of a good force in it but I don't see it winning many games in its current incarnation depending on what you are facing.

Empire is sort of the "jack of all trades" army. When I have faced them, I have found their strengths to include good access to many lores of magic, good artillery, and easy access to 1+ armor saves (which makes them hard to remove in combat). At some point i think you will have to invest in some more models (more on this in a sec), but for now here is what I would do to make the best use of what you have.

Lords/Heroes: At first glance I notice that you have spent a lot of points on heroes in this army list. As someone who plays armies where characters tend to get expensive really fast, I know what a double edged sword spending a lot on heroes is... they do well for a while but if one thing goes wrong (spell, failed Ld test, etc.) you can lose a lot of points really quickly. I know you need them all in in order to get to the 2750 point limit, but as you add more units to your army I would scale back how many characters you include.

For now, the General on Griffon needs protection... characters on monsters are big targets (as my prince on dragon can attest) and tend to die quickly to cannons, bolt throwers, etc. Griffons are especially squishy because they don't have any saves so I think you will want to get your general into combat ASAP in order to prevent him dying to magic/shooting. Warrior priests are nice characters for the hatred they give their unit, so I like them in most lists. At least one wizard is a must in 8th, although in a large point game I would invest in a level 4 wizard for more magic offense/defense. Lore of Life/Light work well with Empire lists I've noticed. Engineers are a must for Helblasters as they add BS and the reroll on misfires helps avoid your war machines blowing up. I might invest in another since you have 2 helblasters. Witch Hunter is meh... a fun choice for some games but I don't think I've ever seen him actually kill his intended target. YMMV

Core: Empire have the ability to field large blocks of infantry on the cheap and also have access to 1+ armor cavalry, which is awesome. I see tons of knights when I face empire because they are hard to kill. Use this. In your army, I have noticed that you don;t have any "chaff", or small units meant to disrupt your enemy's movement/hunt war machines and lone characters. I would breakup the 10 man Knight unit into 2 units of 5 and use them in this role... the 1+ armor makes them very hard to kill with small arms fire (the typical solution for chaff as they are usually fast cav) so if you opponent wants to kill them they will have to direct more heavy firepower/magic at them; this is good for you if they do it because it means they aren't doing it to the larger units. For your list, I would use the 8 man Knight unit with a Captain BSB and Warrior priest as an offensive hammer unit, and the large block of Swordsmen as an anvil... 40 dudes can take some casualties and stick around, but will have difficulty killing anything worthwhile. Use them to block an important enemy unit/lock it in place until the cavalry arrives to save them : )

Special: I like flagellants and Greatswords, but it takes a special kind of list to really make them work. This list isnit quite it, but you can still use them effectively. Greatsword units are great for their high S attacks and decent armor... in this list I would use them in combo with the swordsmen/flagellants in order to countercharge and bring some killing power to a fight where the anvil is holding something in place... 25 greatswords in the flank should do some good damage, especially with a warrior priest in them for hatred. The flagellants, unfortunately, are going to be an expensive anvil... they will die in droves but being unbreakable means they will die to the last man. Throw them at your enemy's most threatening unit to hold it in place for a turn (maybe two) while the rest of your army kills something. They will sell their lives dearly, but if you were able to kill some other stuff and get into the opponent's backfield it will have been worth it. Don;t expect the flagellants to win, just use them as a meat shield to run interference for the rest of your army.

Cannons are great, shoot them at enemy warmachines/monsters to really get the most out of them. Pray to Sigmar you don't misfire.

Rare: Helblasters are good, but generally a more defensive warmachine as they need the enemy to walk into the killing field of 24" to be effective. I would use them mostly in deployment to act as deterrents... your opponent would be a fool to march at them so use their placement to dictate where you want the enemy to move (and then place the rest of your army there to force him to fight on your terms). I would expect that the enemy will fire magic/shooting at them early to get rid of them, but that should buy you a turn or two to close the distance on them. And if they are foolish enough to walk into the killing field, let er rip.

Moving forward, I think you should look at investing in a Steam Tank and some Demigryphs Knights... both units are very good and points efficient, and will add some more killing power to your army (as at the moment you don;t have much of that). Greatswords are killy and can stick around a while due to stubborn, but are better in a horde (40+ guys) with 10 man wide frontage to maximize attacks out of the unit. Lore of Light works well to buff Empire infantry into a threat as just standard they tend to be blah. Flagellants are too expensive for what they do but, if used as a suicide unit that buys you time by tying up a key enemy unit, can fulfill a tactical purpose. Empire warmachines are awesome... grab another cannon i think. Knights and your Griffon general should work together on a flank to get into combat ASAP and try to win a combat in 1 turn... but don't be surprised if the griffon dies.

I think the key thing to note is you have a binch of options that constitute early threat (griffon, helblasters, knights) so you need to move forward quickly to minimize the time the enemy has to remove those threats at range... you will take casualties but if their dying bought yout army time to move forward and engage relatively intact (knights and greatswerds, mostly) then it may have been worth it.

2. Here is my stab at a competitive 100 pt list for you using your existing models... it isa cannon for monster/warmachine sniping, a main block of knights with heroes to charge something and kill it, and 2 supporitng units of 5 knights to act as chaff/support for the main knight brick. If you wanted an infantry based list I think you need more shooting (more crossbows/handguns, etc.)

Warrior Priest, General, great weapon, heavy armor, warhorse, barding 108 pts
Captain of Empire: BSB, ogre blade, full plate, shield, warhorse, barding 149 pts
Battle WIzard: level 2, lore of life, dispel scroll, warhorse 137 pts

Knightly Order: 8 inner circle knights, full command, standard of discipline 245 pts
Knightly Order: 5 knights, musician (for free reform = better movement) 120 pts
Knightly Order: 5 knights, musician 120 pts

Great Cannon 120 pts

TOTAL = 999 pts

Hope this helps, any questions feel free to ask!

   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

You definitely want a steam tank, and consider a wizard lord. That +4 to dispelling is a must in a magic-centric edition. Back in 6th you didn't have to go as crazy about magic protection, but with insane spells going off, you need to protect your ass from a purple sun.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

Thanks for taking the time to write up such a wide covering, helpful reply. I appreciate you trying to come up with something using the models that I already have. I will come up with a revised 2750 point list tonight. More feedback will be really helpful.

Looks like demigryph knights may be next on the cards.

Thanks again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is what I've adjusted for the 2750 point list:

+ Lords (525pts) +

Battle Wizard Lord (243pts) [Lore of Life, Warhorse, Wizard Level 4]
····Magic Items [BRB - Dispel Scroll]

General of the Empire (282pts) [Full Plate Armour, Imperial Griffon, Magic Items, Pistol, Shield]

+ Heroes (355pts) +

Captain of the Empire (109pts) [Battle Standard Bearer, Full Plate Armour, Shield]
····Warhorse [Barding]

Master Engineer (86pts) [Hochland Long Rifle, Light Armour]

Warrior Priest (72pts) [Great Weapon, Heavy Armour]

Warrior Priest (88pts) [Great Weapon, Heavy Armour]
····Warhorse [Barding]

+ Core (976pts) +

Crossbowmen (180pts) [20x Crossbowmen]

Knightly Orders (206pts) [Champion, 8x Knightly Orders, Lance and Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer]

Knightly Orders Inner Circle (280pts) [Champion, 10x Knightly Orders Inner Circle, Lance and Shield, Musician, Standard Bearer]

Swordsmen (310pts) [Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, 40x Swordsmen]

+ Special (653pts) +

Flagellants (228pts) [19x Flagellants]

Great Cannon (120pts)

Greatswords (305pts) [Champion, 25x Greatswords, Musician, Standard Bearer]

+ Rare (240pts) +

Helblaster Volley Gun (120pts)

Helblaster Volley Gun (120pts)


I'm sure it's not perfect and could do with some tweaking. I've changed some knights to inner circle, removed the witch hunter, changed the wizard to a level 4 and removed some flagellants. I will grab some demigryph knights down the track. As good as steam tanks may be, they don't really suit my army's aesthetic.

I like that knight heavy 1000 point list a lot. I have a penchant for horses


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/12 09:53:54


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Wakefield

Issue here I could see is that the Engineer should likely not use the Hochand Rifle, as it takes a few of them to be effective, and they are rather costly whilst the ME cannot both shoot and give his special ability to the Helblasters (If that's your intention!) Gives you extra points to get some magic items (cheapo ward saves perhaps?) onto characters,

Nice to see Flagellants getting some love, and make decent, annoying roadblocks for the enemy's nastier units. Only other things you could consider is ditching the Great Weapons on the priests (Unless it's modelled of course) for shields for extra armour saves, though I think the Warhorse Priest is alright, considering they'll have a 3+ AS!

Overall I look forward to seeing how this goes! Cav looks meaty enough for damage-dishing, and you have enough blocks of infantry to be effective (As I think the GS will not be the main centre of attention, considering the amount of knights on board!)
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



Ann Arbor, MI

I think the above list looks pretty good for what you have. Fantasy is nice because, unlike in 40k, the list you bring doesn't necessarily mean you autolose the game... it is much more about how you position things to your advantage in the movement phase, and then following up on your plan in the later phases.

Sampson's comment about the engineer is a good point I overlooked... just use him to boost your Helblasters and drop the gun. As far as everything else goes, you've got:

1. Hard hitting units = knights, general on griffin, and greatswords. I'd use the greatswords to support your swordsmen, keep them slightly back and then countercharge anything that gets into the swordsmen block. Knights can also support infantry, but may be better on a flank with the griffon to move quickly into combat with a unit (a griffon and knight combo charge is nasty ).

2. Anvil = Swordsmen... position them to force an enemy unit to charge them then hold on until help arrives. Basically they act to keep something stuck in place until you can charge it with something else... not a glorious job but a necessary one.

3. Flagellants should be sacrificed to hold off a nasty unit for a turn... move them right up into the face of the enemy (don't charge if possible... though frenzy may make this hard), make him charge you, and hope you can survive 2 turns of combat... your level 4 Life wizard might want to cast Regrowth on them (if he rolls it) to give them a few more bodies back that the enemy has to chew through as 19 is not a huge number of guys (with no armor they will die in droves). If they delay your opponent for 2 (maybe even 3) combat phases they will have effectively stalled a unit for two turns, which is a huge amount of time in game. For this reason alone I like flagellants... sort of a non-killy Death Company equivalent that delays your opponent's better units (hopefully).

4. Warmachines just shoot stuff (prioritize monsters with cannon for D6 wound goodness).

5. Crossbowmen should prioritize small "chaff" units on the enemy side to stop them from blocking your movement (like you're trying to do with flagellants). Movement is key in fantasy and the less stuff the enemy has to mess with yours the better.

If you can use your deployment of Helblasters to force your opponent to deploy predictably, then you have an advantage. Fantasy is all about effectively moving your units into good matchups. Good luck! Let us know how it works for you!

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/08/12 15:14:37


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

A single level 2 in as large a game as 2750pts is ridiculously light, expect to have your head handed to you in the magic phase.

However that being said if you agree to magic limitation 'talks' with your opponent it is the way to go.

You haven't got a level 4, you haven't taken a stupid number of cannon, though some will claim that from the perspective of the meta one is a stupid number of cannon. You have a griffon but no tank.

I like this list a lot, and if your opponent plays fair back to you and self polices you could be in for some great games with the list in the OP.

If your opponent wants to use whatever they want from the list, then a redesign is in order.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in au
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

Cool, thanks for the ideas. I've removed the rifle from the engineer and taken out the foot priest to give the General a Runefang and Talisman of Protection. My brain tells me that I'm over investing in him, but my heart loves the idea of auto wound, no armour saves!
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Never been a fan of the Runefang. Isnt it 85pts? Where do you have room for the Talisman except the 6++, which is no defence. That by the way was a cost reduiction , the Runefang used to cost 100pts.

Warhammer superweapons are sole items and turn the lord into a glass hammer.
Unless on a special character that also has a defence, and most of those are stupidly overpriced.

Think of what a Runfang will do. Autowound. That is good, but S6 will wound T4 on a 2+ you can get that via a great weapon or ogre blade. No saves. Well ward saves still happen AFAIK, and S6 is -3 to armour saves which discounts most meaningful saves except for magic armour sets and heavy cavalry. S5+ is good for killing T3 infantry and reasonable for killing T4. S6 is good for killing T4 and most cavalry and you get diminishing returns after that point.

The only time autowound would really help is against T5 or greater. Sure a Runefang is ironically a great dwarfkiller, and can also smack a warboss. Unless the warboss has a 4++ and a cheap magic sword which with his natural S5 hits only slightly less hard than a Runefang. Sigmar help you if the warboss has a choppa of swift striking. That S6 on the bash, hitting before you and you have no protection of merit due to the Runefang gobbling up the item allowance unless you are Karl Franz because he has the silver seal.

All in all I wouldnt use a Runefang except to hit monsters, troubel is even with autowound and even if we assume you get luicky and hit with asll uyour attacks, the Runefang doesnt do enough damage to a monster before it gets to swing. The monster on the other hand will have enough A and S and sometimes WS to do the job in one combat round, especially as the best defence you can muster is 1+/6++ which wont do much against a hydra, or a dragon.

Now an ogre blade costs 40pts and grants you S6 attacks, which almost auto-wounds and almost negates armour against anything except the largest monsters, which are T6 and heavy cavalry which get a 4+ or 5+ save. You can have a solid ward save on top of that.
You don't need to smack monsters as that is what cannon is for, an ogre blade is quite enough for a challenge lord. Though you will always need to be careful with an Empire challenge character unless you use the Speculum, then everyone else needs to watch out.

For a Lord that joins in regular combat and kills rank and file alongside his griffon the ogre blade is sufficient for task.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/14 12:27:28


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

Wow! What a passionate argument against the Runefang. You've won me over, the General is now armed with the Ogre Blade and the 4+ ward save talisman
   
Made in au
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

I will be playing a couple of games tomorrow, there's a chance I may need to cut back to 2000 points. Any suggestions? I will report back here to let everyone know how I fare.
   
Made in au
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




Australia

Only played one game at 2750 points. I won which is great, probably more a case of luck than good generalship. The one change I will have to make is to increase the size of the flagellants or do away with them all together. They were a great tie up unit but don't last long enough when both sides are inflicting casualties on them. I wouldn't mind having a go with detachments, do crossbowmen have a place as detachments for my swordsmen?
   
Made in nl
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch



Netherlands

Unfortunately you will have to invest in either a Steam Tank, a War Altar, some Demigryph knights or all of them.

Demigryphs put knightly orders to shame, one demigryph is better than 3 inner circle knights and cheaper at the same time. A steam tank is a staying power to keep the enemy at bay and deny a whole flank completely with its random movement. A war altar is empire's single best thing ever. It can hold a whole flank alone (along with the tank this takes you to two very hard anvils for very very cheap), it can drive opponents crazy if you put the speculum on your archlector and synergizes oh so well with a light council. This is 2-4 lvl 1 light wizards and a lvl 4 light wizard fishing for some Str 6-8 banishment missiles. War Altar bound spell allows you to cast banishment twice and make short work of your opponents, since a 2d6 str 8 reroll ward saves will down any monster, weaken any unit and if they dare to be demons then shame on them. Magic phase is unfortunately the king of 8th edition, you really can't spend enough points on magic.

Oh and lords are useless nowdays. A single demigryph hits as hard as a Empire General, has better stats and costs way less. So why buy lords? (BsB is mandatory though).

14000
15000
4000 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Oh and lords are useless nowdays. A single demigryph hits as hard as a Empire General, has better stats and costs way less. So why buy lords? (BsB is mandatory though).


Lord on Griffon can be useful, you need to be careful with the item allowance though.
Second Lord as a general and a third with level 4 and robes.

Lord characters are still very useful to have around, but have been incorrectly priced since the earliest days of warhammer.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
 
Forum Index » The Old World & Legacy Warhammer Fantasy Discussion
Go to: