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ziggurattt wrote:
Back in 2nd edition (I know, it's not relevant) Leman Russes were Troops.

Bring that back and give them Objective Secured.

But then the SM players would whine even more....

Also, I want my all-infantry army, damnit!

Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.

 Selym wrote:
Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.

And there doth the problem emerge. Most of the Russ variants are already slightly over priced. In the IA book ALL of them are.

 Selym wrote:
Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.

Because they were priced in line with the previous book.

A lot of the wargear options from Battlegroup would be great for the Codex though. +1 Hull Point, a 4+ save against Immobilize...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.

Because they were priced in line with the previous book.

A lot of the wargear options from Battlegroup would be great for the Codex though. +1 Hull Point, a 4+ save against Immobilize...

I take the upgrades from it for my vanilla IG. After all, they are the same tanks so it stands to reason that they would have access to the same wargear right?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.

Because they were priced in line with the previous book.

A lot of the wargear options from Battlegroup would be great for the Codex though. +1 Hull Point, a 4+ save against Immobilize...

I take the upgrades from it for my vanilla IG. After all, they are the same tanks so it stands to reason that they would have access to the same wargear right?

While logically speaking, yeah they would--you can't really do that without informing your opponent.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.

Because they were priced in line with the previous book.

A lot of the wargear options from Battlegroup would be great for the Codex though. +1 Hull Point, a 4+ save against Immobilize...

I take the upgrades from it for my vanilla IG. After all, they are the same tanks so it stands to reason that they would have access to the same wargear right?

While logically speaking, yeah they would--you can't really do that without informing your opponent.

I have taken the *Its FW so its legal route*. That and my regular opponents are: Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and that Space Marine player whom was attempting to restrict me on my tanks whom I mae a thread about a while back and of whom brings bloody Primarchs to nearly every battle.

Fair play then

 Brennonjw wrote:
do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book

The army has had issues since 6E came around, and the codex that came out in 2014 didn't fix many and created a few more.

First, the army has terrible internal balance, and half the units in the book never get used.

Second, most of its unit pricing is still stuck in a 4E/5E paradigm, and many of those units were bad there too.

Third, with the massive boosts in survivability, mobility, and firepower of newer 7E armies, IG simply don't match up. Try playing IG against Necrons for instance, it's almost an auto-defeat. Between stuff being much more resilient, and the diffusion of weapons with effects like Gauss, Haywire, Destroyer, and Grav, it's unreasonably difficult for IG armor to survive long enough for what it needs to do, and IG infantry can be swept aside with contemptuous ease making screening units or infantry fire support largely meaningless.

 Vaktathi wrote:
they're also really not supposed to be "power armor" hunters either, they're commando assault units, and they should have weapons and rules that reflect that. AP3 is just a crutch to try and make them interesting, but doesn't really reflect what they should be about.

I agree. In order to make scions the elite commandos they should be, make them the new veterans and scratch veterans from the codex entirely. Veterans were introduced to the game in the spirit of giving IG players a conversion project and the opportunity to make a truly unique team that has been fighting together for years and has developed its own character and nuisances. When I think veterans, I think Predator. A small team of commandos where everybody has a different weapon/fighting style and a different specialization, but who work together like a well-oiled machine.

As it is now, every IG player just puts Cadian models on the table and calls them veterans with carapace armour. It's lazy power-gaming with no respect for story and background. If you want BS4 so badly, go play SM.

 counterwavecounter wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
they're also really not supposed to be "power armor" hunters either, they're commando assault units, and they should have weapons and rules that reflect that. AP3 is just a crutch to try and make them interesting, but doesn't really reflect what they should be about.

As it is now, every IG player just puts Cadian models on the table and calls them veterans with carapace armour. It's lazy power-gaming with no respect for story and background. If you want BS4 so badly, go play SM.

NO. Nononono.nooononono. no.

Veterans are about the only decent troops choice that we have right now and quite frankly they are needed. the BS 4 is a good thing and we should keep it for them. Storm Troopers need a massive price reduction and the ability to outflank, have pinning on all their weapons, come with camouflage gear as standard and have better weapons - S4 AP4 Assault 3 with an 18" range would be good. Then and only then can we start looking at them as viable again. Oh and possibly BS 5. Just to make the little Timmy's and their Space Smurf army cry.

Besides my Veteran army is composed of British WW2 infantry and German WW2 infantry I dont use Carapace, I use Forward Sentries (4+/3+ cover save FTW) and only my specific Engineers/Pioneers sections have the Demolitions doctrines. They most definitely look the part!

 master of ordinance wrote:
Besides my Veteran army is composed of British WW2 infantry and German WW2 infantry I dont use Carapace, I use Forward Sentries (4+/3+ cover save FTW) and only my specific Engineers/Pioneers sections have the Demolitions doctrines. They most definitely look the part!

That case is the exception, not the rule. Veterans are our only decent troop choice because they have BS4 and it baffles me that they've somehow managed to develop the same marksmanship skills as genetically and technologically augmented space marines who are also veterans of dozens if not hundreds of battles. BS4 just doesn't make sense in an IG army. I don't care how many war-zones they've seen. I'm not saying scrap the idea of veterans entirely, just change them to reflect what veterans should be. Give them more flexibility in their weapon choices, boost their leadership, give them infiltrate, give them cover save bonuses, toss in special wargear, something...

 counterwavecounter wrote:

As it is now, every IG player just puts Cadian models on the table and calls them veterans with carapace armour. It's lazy power-gaming with no respect for story and background. If you want BS4 so badly, go play SM.

Make normal guardsmen worth a damn and we'll talk.

 vipoid wrote:
Make normal guardsmen worth a damn and we'll talk.

Then you're playing the wrong army. They're not supposed to matter and they're not supposed to be worth a damn. They're kids conscripted at the age of 18, given a gun and told to go fight a war and they win wars through endurance and brutality, not specialization. If you want specilization, that's what the space marines are for.

 counterwavecounter wrote:

Then you're playing the wrong army. They're not supposed to matter and they're not supposed to be worth a damn. They're grunts conscripted at the age of 18, given a gun and told to go fight a war and they win wars through endurance and brutality.

My apologies for expecting a unit be worth its point cost. Evidently I'm playing the wrong game.

They have to be worth something to have value on the table as a playing piece.

Likewise, conscripts are just that, conscripts. Guardsmen are well trained troops, often the best their worlds have to offer and tithed off the top 10% of the PDF, and many regiments are very highly trained and lavishly equipped. And that's why we have the array of Conscript-Guardsmen-Veteran units for troops.

The problem is that, because of the core rules of the game and the functionality of the units in question, Veterans are the obvious default choice because they're the ones that can be made to work most consistently.

It's one thing for a Guardsmen to not really be worth much, but they have to pull their weight, and unfortunately, between the core rules, codex bloat, and the scale the game plays at now, that's just not typically possible. There's no place for lasgun wielding grunts in a game dominated by superheavies, D weapons, BS7 Haywire wielding infantry, and 13pt Necrons that are harder to kill with Lasguns than 40pt Terminators.

 vipoid wrote:
My apologies for expecting a unit be worth its point cost. Evidently I'm playing the wrong game.

Oh, they definitely need a drop in points, no argument here and IG is horribly outmatched in the 7th edition meta, but introducing more veteran type elite units is not the way to go about it as it undermines what the IG is supposed to be.

 counterwavecounter wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
My apologies for expecting a unit be worth its point cost. Evidently I'm playing the wrong game.

Oh, they definitely need a drop in points, no argument here and IG is horribly outmatched in the 7th edition meta, but introducing more veteran type elite units is not the way to go about it as it undermines what the IG is supposed to be.

Eldar and the D

Space Marines and the Demi Company

Tau and the Rapetide

Necrons and the Space Croissants

Want me to go on?

As Vipoid said:

Make normal guardsmen worth a damn and we'll talk

 master of ordinance wrote:
Want me to go on?

You're missing my point or, at least, not making an effort to understand. Yes, the new 7th edition codices for Eldar, Necrons and Space Marines with all their formations and special rules and free stuff make the IG codex laughable. What you're failing to consider is that IG will also get a 7th edition codex complete with formations and special rules and all sorts of flashy toys and we'll probably see it early next year. That's why this thread was started, to talk about things the new IG codex needs.

I don't deny that IG needs a power-boost. We're on the same page and I understand where you're coming from. I just don't think pushing players to more veteran spam is the way to do it.

 counterwavecounter wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
My apologies for expecting a unit be worth its point cost. Evidently I'm playing the wrong game.

Oh, they definitely need a drop in points, no argument here and IG is horribly outmatched in the 7th edition meta, but introducing more veteran type elite units is not the way to go about it as it undermines what the IG is supposed to be.

But if they were made to suck more, it wouldn't help much with a points drop. Instead of one troop choice we have now, we would have 0 troops worth taking. Giving IG more elite choice wouldn't help either. there are 3 slots for elite units, and they have too low resilience to be worth a damn. If my troops would suddenly work, and my elite would have to carry my army, but be worse resilient then marine scouts, the army would have no sense.

 counterwavecounter wrote:

Oh, they definitely need a drop in points, no argument here and IG is horribly outmatched in the 7th edition meta, but introducing more veteran type elite units is not the way to go about it as it undermines what the IG is supposed to be.

That's the thing though - a points drop isn't enough.

The problem with guardsmen isn't that they're too expensive, it's that they don't do anything.

Lasguns in the current meta are beyond worthless. So, what you're left with is 10 men, where only 1 is actually doing anything (i.e. the lone guardsman allowed to carry a special weapon). And, with BS3, you need 2 whole squads in order to average a single hit with that special weapon.

So, we're currently at 20 men for 1 melta/plasma hit.

This is why veterans are the only troops that see any play - because guardsmen currently take inefficiency to new levels.

 Selym wrote:
In that case, WISHLISTING TIME!

Everyone, quickly invent a new unit you wanna see, be it lulzy or srs biznis.

*shrug* You asked for it

Banshee Rocket Artillery 50 pts
FA 12 SA 10 RA 10 HP 3 BS 3 Open Topped, Vehicle
Wargear: Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter, Rocket Array

Rocket Array
R: 48” S: 4 Ap:- Barrage 2, Swarm of Rockets, Large Blast
Swarm of Rockets: Any model hit by the Rocket Array is hit twice.
Chem-Rockets
R: 36” S: 4 Ap: - Barrage 2, Swarm of Rockets, large Blast, Fleshbane
Krak Rockets
R: 36” S: 6 Ap: 4 Barrage 2 Blast, Swarm of Rockets

Options
You can have up to additional banshee’s in the squadron….50pts each
Any Banshee can take any of the following Ammunition
-Krak Rockets….10 pts
-Chem Rockets….25pts
Any Banshee can replace it’s hull-mounted Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer….free
Any Banshee can take any of the following
-Vox….5pts
-Dozer Blade……5 pts
-Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter….5 pts
-Recovery Gear…..5 pts
-Extra Armour….10 pts
-Fire Barrels…..10 pts
-Camo-Netting…..10 pts


Bombardier Heavy SPG 120pts
FA 14 SA 12 RA 10 HP 4 BS 3 Heavy, Tank
Wargear: Searchlight, Smoke launchers, Hull-mounted Heavy Battle Cannon
May Take up to two additional Bombardiers……120pts each
Can take a veteran crew (BS 4).....10pts
Can Replace it’s Heavy Battle Cannon with any of the following
-Hunter Heavy AT Cannon….30pts
-Devastator Cannon….30pts
May take any of the following
-Vox….5pts
-Dozer Blade……5 pts
-Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter….5 pts
-Recovery Gear…..5 pts
-Extra Armour….10 pts
-Fire Barrels…..10 pts
-Camo-Netting…..10 pts

Heavy Battle Cannon
R: 60” S: 9 Ap: 2 Large Blast, Ordinance 1
Hunter Heavy AT Cannon
R: 72” S: D Ap: 1 Ordinance 1
Devastator Cannon
R: 24” S: D Ap: 1 Large Blast Ordnance 1


Dragon Medium Tank 60 pts Fast Attack
BS 3 A F 12 S 12 R 10 HP 3

Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank, Fast)

Unit Composition: 1 Dragons
Wargear: Turret-Mounted Autocannon
Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter
Smoke Launchers
Searchlight

Options
May Take up to two additional Dragons……60pts each
Can take a veteran crew (BS 4).....10pts
May replace it’s Autocannon with any of the following
-Assualt Cannon……….5pts
-Lascannon…….5pts
-Twin-Linked Autocannon…10pts
-Battle Cannon…….10pts
-Vanquisher Battle Cannon…..10pts
-Twin-Linked Assualt Cannon…..15pts
May take one of the following
-Heavy bolted Sponsons….15pts
-Heavy Flamer Sponson……15pts
Can replace it’s hull mounted Heavy Bolter with one of the following
-Heavy Flamer…..free
-Auocannon……5pts
May take any of the following
-Dozer Blade……5 pts
-Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter….5 pts
-Recovery Gear…..5 pts
-Extra Armour….10 pts
-Fire Barrels…..10 pts
-Camo-Netting…..10 pts

More to follow

Allow SWT and/or HWT join infantry blobs. Then Infantry squads become extra wound markers to protect some guns that actually work.

Then add some orders to give special rules to said blobs for a turn: interceptor or skyfire or whatever might be useful for a turn in addition to what we already have.

I think they might then justify themselves.

Make veterans a part of the Platoon.

It makes no logical sense for veterans to operate independantly on the level they do. Regardless of how experienced a unit gets, it does not forgoe its command structure. Either make them a part of the Platoon: an attatched unit from a more experienced platoon sent to train the new guys, or the only remaining men from the platoon to survive from the last campaign, or something.

As they are now they operate like some Special Forces- regular joe hybrid that just doesn't make sense to me. The Scions are the SF guys, so what are veterans really?

 Ignatius wrote:
Make veterans a part of the Platoon.

It makes no logical sense for veterans to operate independantly on the level they do. Regardless of how experienced a unit gets, it does not forgoe its command structure. Either make them a part of the Platoon: an attatched unit from a more experienced platoon sent to train the new guys, or the only remaining men from the platoon to survive from the last campaign, or something.

As they are now they operate like some Special Forces- regular joe hybrid that just doesn't make sense to me. The Scions are the SF guys, so what are veterans really?

The way I typically see it when I build armies around Vets, is that the entire force is basically a platoon. Having 4 Vet squads and a CCS is pretty analgous to a Platoon with a PCS and 4 Infantry Squads, you're just bumping the command level up to the entire FoC rather than confining it to a single FoC slot.

The *real* reason some IG players take Vets, is because our troops are so terribad that they are a tax. it is cheaper to take two Vet units than to take one platoon. And on average they will be more effective than the platoon. Cheaper and better.

Then, with the points saved, you can invest in things that actually work. Like Spess Mehreen allies and whatnot.

With Vets, you get more bang for the buck, more flexibility in use, and much more utility when mechanized.

Running mechanized platoons was doable under the old book to some extent, but when the new codex came out and increased the minimum cost of a mechanized platoon (before any upgrades) by 40pts, that utility tanked, especially when Veteran options like Carapace became sanely priced in comparison.

 Vaktathi wrote:
With Vets, you get more bang for the buck, more flexibility in use, and much more utility when mechanized.

Running mechanized platoons was doable under the old book to some extent, but when the new codex came out and increased the minimum cost of a mechanized platoon (before any upgrades) by 40pts, that utility tanked, especially when Veteran options like Carapace became sanely priced in comparison.

Maybe if you could make part of the platoon veterean, and not others? Say a twenty point upgrade for full squads and 15 for HWS. Ten for PCS

New Unit wish listing:

Commissariat Detachement:

1 Lord Commissar 75pts

3-10 Commissars 25pts ea

Each commissars from this detachment may be assigned to any AM squad (except hobits) prior to deployment, or may all be attached to any one command squad. Each commissar gains one of the following special rules (choose during list creation): Deep Strike, Preferred Enemy, Tank Hunter, Outflank, Adamantium will, Fear, Hit and Run, Interceptor, Monster Hunter, Night Vision or Eternal Warrior.

No Commissar in this formation may chose the same USR as another Commissar in this formation.

You may run one of these formations for each Company Command Squad in your force.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
Yeah, 4 ppm for IG and 2ppm for conscripts would be about right.

105 points for a minimum platoon wouldn't be too bad.

On the one hand yes, on the other hand; I think that if they are too cheap it makes playing any type of guard more time consuming and unwieldy. In a tournament atmosphere a full infantry list with 4 point models base, and plenty of option for 2ppm units unmanageable.

To me when I think about a fix for the dex, I think how can this army work better by its self without further empowering the obvious current unbalance of allied detachments. If we make the blob squads cheaper, then it really benefits SM lists more than AM lists. just my two cents though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
The *real* reason some IG players take Vets, is because our troops are so terribad that they are a tax. it is cheaper to take two Vet units than to take one platoon. And on average they will be more effective than the platoon. Cheaper and better.

Then, with the points saved, you can invest in things that actually work. Like Spess Mehreen allies and whatnot.

You have a point here that I missed.
I need to consider this, but still I am not certain that cheaper ppm is the solution.
Ideally I would like to see platoons get something other than unlocking better units or orking it up blob style.

How about this; Platoon Command Squad special rule;
Orders Relayed: Any time a Company Command Squad successfully issues an order to a platoon command squad the order is automatically issued for free to each squad taken as part of that platoon.

Does that boost regular line infantry enough to make them different from Vets?