Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just got a copy of the 1997 GW price guide - thought I would do a comparison of a few items - sorry if this exists already somewhere...

I started 40k in 1992, when I was 12... I couldn't afford much then, which made me think about people (including me) who find the prices today rather expensive.

(please ignore GW expecting you to have a bigger army etc - it's just an interesting comparison - personally I just enjoy making and painting the models).


Blood Claws (10 models)____________20_______23_______0.78%
Wolf Guard Terminators (5 models)_____25_______28_______0.63%
Blood Angel Dreadnought____________25_______28_______0.63%
Tactical Squad (10 models)___________20_______25_______1.25%
Azrael_____________________________7______12.3______3.18%
40k Box Set________________________50_______65_______1.47%
Codex Tyranids_____________________15_______25_______2.88%
Yarrick____________________________7________11_______2.54%
Codex Orks_________________________15_______30_______3.93%
Razorback__________________________20_______25_______1.25%
Basic Paint pot_____________________1.25_______2.55_____4.04%
Metallic Paint pot___________________1.75_______2.55_____2.11%
Spray Paint Undercoat________________5________10.4_____4.15%


I was really surprised by this - the prices have not really gone up at all, especially taking inflation into account.

So what do those percentages mean?

Are you sure with your data? I clearly recall standard 16 HE warriors box being 20€ (~15 in today GBP) at the time I started, that is to say around 1999-2000. It's now 30€, which is quite more than the actual inflation of the eurozone since its about +50% of price increase.

Is that the percent increase in price divided by 18 years difference in price?

That's gotta be, yearly percentage price increase? But flat divisor, not compounded?

edit: Actually I have no idea where those percentages came from. I can't make 'em work as divisors.

It is, he's using the average of the price change (e.g., 21.5 rather than 20).

Huh.. OP can you post a pic of the guide?

@John Wirral: Can you check a few items and add to the original post?

I believe the following items are EXACTLY THE SAME as back in 1997 (finecast aside). Lord Azrael (already posted) is a good example.

1. Eldrad, Phoenix Lords
2. Space Marine Bike

Not sure if Rhino MKII was released by 1997. It might not have been. Khorne Berserkers, Catachans are also very old kits that have not seen an update.

Quick look at inflation rates and £1 today was £1.68 in 1997.

Blood Claws (10 models)____________20_______23_______0.78% Wolf Guard Terminators (5 models)__25_______28_______0.63% Blood Angel Dreadnought____________25_______28_______0.63%

Are we also comparing metal with plastic here?

One of the events that really soured my feelings towards GW, was when they started charging metal prices for plastic. For the longest time I wanted them to switch over to plastic to make the hobby more affordable (I actually used to believe their BS about fluctuating tin prices). But when they finally did start making the transition, the price of plastic kits suddenly shot up to be the same price as the old metal kits, and then exceeded it. Brazenly refusing to pass any of their savings onto customers, is when I stopped seeing them as a friendly grass-roots hobby company, and started to see them as the greedy soulless corporate gits that I see them as today.

 Smacks wrote:
Blood Claws (10 models)____________20_______23_______0.78% Wolf Guard Terminators (5 models)__25_______28_______0.63% Blood Angel Dreadnought____________25_______28_______0.63%

Are we also comparing metal with plastic here?

One of the events that really soured my feelings towards GW, was when they started charging metal prices for plastic. For the longest time I wanted them to switch over to plastic to make the hobby more affordable (I actually used to believe their BS about fluctuating tin prices). But when they finally did start making the transition, the price of plastic kits suddenly shot up to be the same price as the old metal kits, and then exceeded it. Brazenly refusing to pass any of their savings onto customers, is when I stopped seeing them as a friendly grass-roots hobby company, and started to see them as the greedy soulless corporate gits that I see them as today.

GW haven't been a grass roots hobby company since the float. But the startling price increases for their plastics certainly drove me further from the GW fold. its the single figures that are the worst.

The first things I bought from GW were three boxes of WHFB Dark Elves (Warriors, Corsairs and Executioners). It was around 2003, I don't exactly remember the year now. 25€ each. Warriors were a plastic kit, 16 models. The others had 10 metal models each.

That means the warriors were 1.56€ per model, while corsairs and executioners were 2.5€ pero model. Not cheap at all, but reasonable prices.

12, perhaps 13 years after that, plastic warriors have the same price but the new kit comes in boxes of 10. Meanwhile both Corsairs and Executioners got new plastic kits, the Corsairs are now 21€ and the Executioners 40€.

That means the following, regarding price per model.

Kit ------------ 2003 ------- 2015 ----- price variation (%)
Warriors ---- 1.56€ ------- 2.5€ --------- +60%
Corsairs ----- 2.5€ -------- 2.1€ -------- -16%
Execs -------- 2.5€ --------- 4€ ---------- +60%

Inflation around here has risen by an average of (roughly) 2% per year since 2003. So I guess in 12 years, to keep up with inflation, the prices should have risen by around 25%. But the Warriors and Executioners price has actually skyrocketed by a 60%, which is specially insane in the case of the Executioners, which were a metal kit in 2003 and went the plastic route later.

On the other hand, the Corsairs kit is actually cheaper, after all these years, than the previous metal models, which makes sense since plastic kits should always be cheaper than metal ones. So we could say the Corsairs price has evolved in a logical way (and surprise surprise, they're right now one of the cheapest kits in the entire GW range) while the Warriors have go significantly more expensive and the Executioners case is simple and pure insanity.

It would have been as simple as doing the same with the three kits as they did with the Corsairs, but due to some reason they chose not to.

Some things are downright crazy cheaper than they used to be. For example: Chaos Knights. Chaos Knights in 6th cost $50 for 5. They're now fully in plastic, have options for hand weapons OR lances, and are larger/more intricate. They also cost $17 less. Mounted Marauders are the same: they were $40 for 5, now they're $29, I believe. Or $25. Don't remember. Either way, huge change. And lets look at the metal infantry: Empire swordsmen used to be $6 for 2, metal, monopose. Now they're $29 for 10, plastic, with options to be swordsmen, spearmen, or halberdiers. And that box has only recently gone to $29. It used to be $22 when it first came out. Sure, the material cost is lower. But the mold costs are higher when you use plastic. So in all these cases, costs have dropped. Some a lot, some barely any, but they've gone down. I can discuss Empire Greatswords or any of the High Elf elite infantry as well, if anyone wants, going from $50 for 10 down to $41 for 10. So if we pay attention to inflation, costs for things switching from metal to plastic has all dropped. Somebody better with inflation costs than I can determine how much. The only things that look to have actually increased in cost at all are things that were previously in plastic and have gotten new sculpts or have kept the same sculpts and had minor price increases (although slightly higher than inflation should be).

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Some things are downright crazy cheaper than they used to be. For example: Chaos Knights. Chaos Knights in 6th cost $50 for 5. They're now fully in plastic, have options for hand weapons OR lances, and are larger/more intricate. They also cost $17 less. Mounted Marauders are the same: they were $40 for 5, now they're $29, I believe. Or $25. Don't remember. Either way, huge change. And lets look at the metal infantry: Empire swordsmen used to be $6 for 2, metal, monopose. Now they're $29 for 10, plastic, with options to be swordsmen, spearmen, or halberdiers. And that box has only recently gone to $29. It used to be $22 when it first came out. Sure, the material cost is lower. But the mold costs are higher when you use plastic. So in all these cases, costs have dropped. Some a lot, some barely any, but they've gone down. I can discuss Empire Greatswords or any of the High Elf elite infantry as well, if anyone wants, going from $50 for 10 down to $41 for 10. So if we pay attention to inflation, costs for things switching from metal to plastic has all dropped. Somebody better with inflation costs than I can determine how much. The only things that look to have actually increased in cost at all are things that were previously in plastic and have gotten new sculpts or have kept the same sculpts and had minor price increases (although slightly higher than inflation should be).

What are you talking about?

Greatswords and elite elven infantry units in 6th edition came in boxes of 10 for 25€. Their prices have actually skyrocketed despite being switched to plastic. I also remember the cavalry boxes (metal horsemen, plastic horses) with 5 models at roughly the same price.

Nice try taking only the blister prices into account.

I'm going with American dollars. The Greatswords actually went from 10 men at $40 to 5 men for $25, then switched to plastic at 10 for $41.25. I know exactly how much they used to cost. And 6th edition knights have ALWAYS been $50 for 5, $10 for 1, since they came out. the 5th edition ones may have been cheaper, but I don't remember. If I want to discuss the plastic/metal hybrids for Empire, well, THOSE were $20 for 16. They've definitely gone up a bit. But I was talking strictly metal only on every infantry unit I've listed.

I'm surely no GW apologist-but every unit I listed prior to being switched to full plastic has either gone down in price a little bit or a lot. Every unit I listed. Again, American prices. I have no information on what they used to cost in various spots in Europe.

Not because I don't care, I just never had access to the data.

 keezus wrote:
@John Wirral: Can you check a few items and add to the original post?

I believe the following items are EXACTLY THE SAME as back in 1997 (finecast aside). Lord Azrael (already posted) is a good example.

1. Eldrad, Phoenix Lords
2. Space Marine Bike

Not sure if Rhino MKII was released by 1997. It might not have been. Khorne Berserkers, Catachans are also very old kits that have not seen an update.

The SM Bike has had a teeny tiny update to make the Rider's torso and legs and ball and socket joint like the rest of the SM line. Other than that it's exactly the same kit.

The current Rhino was released in.... I want to say 2001-2002. Berserkers and Catachans were released in 1999.

 Smacks wrote:
Blood Claws (10 models)____________20_______23_______0.78% Wolf Guard Terminators (5 models)__25_______28_______0.63% Blood Angel Dreadnought____________25_______28_______0.63%

Are we also comparing metal with plastic here?

One of the events that really soured my feelings towards GW, was when they started charging metal prices for plastic. For the longest time I wanted them to switch over to plastic to make the hobby more affordable (I actually used to believe their BS about fluctuating tin prices). But when they finally did start making the transition, the price of plastic kits suddenly shot up to be the same price as the old metal kits, and then exceeded it. Brazenly refusing to pass any of their savings onto customers, is when I stopped seeing them as a friendly grass-roots hobby company, and started to see them as the greedy soulless corporate gits that I see them as today.

Yeah, 1997 means we're comparing the end of 2nd edition (when almost everything was metal and army sizes were small) to now (where almost everything is plastic and army sizes are huge).

Back in 2nd editon, yes, a box of Wolf Guard or Blood Claws was a massive investment, it also constituted most of an army in your typical game. These days they are only a fraction of what most people would consider an army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 keezus wrote:
@John Wirral: Can you check a few items and add to the original post?

I believe the following items are EXACTLY THE SAME as back in 1997 (finecast aside). Lord Azrael (already posted) is a good example.

1. Eldrad, Phoenix Lords
2. Space Marine Bike

Not sure if Rhino MKII was released by 1997. It might not have been. Khorne Berserkers, Catachans are also very old kits that have not seen an update.

The SM Bike has had a teeny tiny update to make the Rider's torso and legs and ball and socket joint like the rest of the SM line. Other than that it's exactly the same kit.

The current Rhino was released in.... I want to say 2001-2002. Berserkers and Catachans were released in 1999.

I'm struggling to think of things that haven't been updated since then. Some of the Space Wolf characters I know go back that far (Ragnar, Ulric and the PA Njal). There might be more stuff in WHFB that goes back that far but still not a lot, the Wolves that Goblins ride on go back to 1992, but the riders might be newer. The Goblin Wolf Chariot I think goes back to the mid 90's but I could be wrong.

Most of the stuff in 1997 was metal
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1997usb40k/index.htm

When metal models went to finecast and plastics, I hated it because the metal models, I thought, were better. Now, though, I think the plastic models are far superior (meaning, the quality of plastics has dramatically increased). I wouldn't want to go back, putting cost aside, though I get a kick out of painting a metal mini every now and then.

Today's plastics are much cheaper to mass produce than metal, but the molds are expensive to tool.

Also, keep in mind that PP and Wyrd's plastics are really expensive too. I recently bought a Nephilim Warrior, and that was a relatively small model for $19. Also, a Shionobi something or the other for Malifaux -- the price escapes me, but it was not cheap.

2011 IIRC Cadian Shock Troops sold 20 per box for $50 which was $2.5 per model, then they repackaged the Cadian Shock Troops sells 10 man per box at $48 which is $4.8 per model, that was an overnight increase 94%

So there you have it. Price rise GW style.

 Achaylus72 wrote:
2011 IIRC Cadian Shock Troops sold 20 per box for $50 which was $2.5 per model, then they repackaged the Cadian Shock Troops sells 10 man per box at $48 which is $4.8 per model, that was an overnight increase 94%

So there you have it. Price rise GW style.

I think they were actually $35 upon repackaging but quickly jumped back up in the very next annual price rise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also recall a few years ago High Elf White Lions and Phoenix Guard at $35 for 5 metal, then being released in plastic. Everyone was excited until they came out at $69 for 10.

The plastic conversion saved us a whole 10 cents per model

 Talys wrote:
When metal models went to finecast and plastics, I hated it because the metal models, I thought, were better. Now, though, I think the plastic models are far superior (meaning, the quality of plastics has dramatically increased). I wouldn't want to go back, putting cost aside, though I get a kick out of painting a metal mini every now and then.

Today's plastics are much cheaper to mass produce than metal, but the molds are expensive to tool.

Also, keep in mind that PP and Wyrd's plastics are really expensive too. I recently bought a Nephilim Warrior, and that was a relatively small model for $19. Also, a Shionobi something or the other for Malifaux -- the price escapes me, but it was not cheap.

Totally untrue, 30 years ago Tamyia quoted in Fine Scale Modeller that it cost $2 Million US Dollars to produce tooling for the average plastic kit, today GW spends between 50,000GP to 100,000GP. Cost of Tooling has dramatically fallen.

2011 when they (GW) used expensive metals as an excuse to go over to Finecast, has fallen flat, commodity prices have slipped dramatically in the years since, meaning that it is much cheaper to produce metal than Finecast, also the molds aren't that expensive, not for a multi million pound company like GW. The switch-over from metal to Finecast was done to screw over customers, consider this Finecast is more expensive than the metals it replaced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
2011 IIRC Cadian Shock Troops sold 20 per box for $50 which was $2.5 per model, then they repackaged the Cadian Shock Troops sells 10 man per box at $48 which is $4.8 per model, that was an overnight increase 94%

So there you have it. Price rise GW style.

I think they were actually $35 upon repackaging but quickly jumped back up in the very next annual price rise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also recall a few years ago High Elf White Lions and Phoenix Guard at $35 for 5 metal, then being released in plastic. Everyone was excited until they came out at $69 for 10.

The plastic conversion saved us a whole 10 cents per model

I have the advert at home but the last price before repackaging was $50, for 20 models. At the time I had just began an Imperial Guard Army and had to call quits on the project because the 94% price rise.

@Achaylus72 - I think you're misunderstanding me.

When GW first went from Metal to Finecast and plastic, I hated the GW plastic miniatures. In my opinion, I thought they were far inferior to the GW metal miniatures. Specifically, they weren't as detailed, the surfaces were at best approximately as good as white metal, which was, in my opinion, inferior to lead.

Fast forward to 2015, and I think the GW plastic miniatures are superior to the GW finecast miniatures and the GW metal miniatures. GW plastic miniatures produced tooled post 2009-2010 are superbly smooth with no imperfections to the surface, excellent, crisp detail, and with compelling advantages in finished products over metal counterparts.

Today, I would not trade GW plastics for the GW metals of yesteryear, independent of price.

As an example, "small" models of this crispness, smoothness, cast, and pose would not have been possible in metal:



Large models, from dreadnoughts to large bikes to tanks, are infinitely superior, because the metal counterparts simply fell apart during the course of use (play), even when they were expertly assembled in any way other than epoxy. Look at a metal ogre the wrong way, and it would be an armless ogre

Also, if the cost of tooling good plastic kits is something that isn't expensive of difficult to come by, I wish other companies would improve their plastic kits and move things to plastic. I actually RETURNED a nephilim warrior just last week (new PP release), because the tooling was so bad on the plastic model that I couldn't bear keeping it as a $19 infantry piece. I say tooling, rather than production, because there were 3 boxes, and all 3, frankly, sucked.

I would be so very happy if Infinity models would move to plastics

 Talys wrote:
@Achaylus72 - I think you're misunderstanding me.

When GW first went from Metal to Finecast and plastic, I hated the GW plastic miniatures. In my opinion, I thought they were far inferior to the GW metal miniatures. Specifically, they weren't as detailed, the surfaces were at best approximately as good as white metal, which was, in my opinion, inferior to lead.

Fast forward to 2015, and I think the GW plastic miniatures are superior to the GW finecast miniatures and the GW metal miniatures. GW plastic miniatures produced tooled post 2009-2010 are superbly smooth with no imperfections to the surface, excellent, crisp detail, and with compelling advantages in finished products over metal counterparts.

Today, I would not trade GW plastics for the GW metals of yesteryear, independent of price.

As an example, "small" models of this crispness, smoothness, cast, and pose would not have been possible in metal:

Spoiler:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/733588-Stormcast%20Eternal%20Prosecutor.html

Large models, from dreadnoughts to large bikes to tanks, are infinitely superior, because the metal counterparts simply fell apart during the course of use (play), even when they were expertly assembled in any way other than epoxy. Look at a metal ogre the wrong way, and it would be an armless ogre

Also, if the cost of tooling good plastic kits is something that isn't expensive of difficult to come by, I wish other companies would improve their plastic kits and move things to plastic. I actually RETURNED a nephilim warrior just last week (new PP release), because the tooling was so bad on the plastic model that I couldn't bear keeping it as a $19 infantry piece. I say tooling, rather than production, because there were 3 boxes, and all 3, frankly, sucked.

I would be so very happy if Infinity models would move to plastics

Cool, I gotcha, yeah that has to suck, getting a plastic kit and the tooling sucks, or more important, a lack of quality control throughout the production phase.


I would love that all GW stuff was plastic, that Finecast is crap.

Cheers

When I started purchasing GW models some 17-19 years ago, so around the price of these guides you could buy 10 Genestealers for £5, they are nigh on the same design as they are now.

You could also get 20 guardsmen for £12 when they really made the push for Cadian/Catachan as opposed to the metal boxes, then when they changed to 10 man boxes, you at least got yourself a heavy weapon team in there.

I don't get these prices, you're not comparing the same models or books in most cases. The codexes priced at £15 were the 2nd edition ones and vastly superior to anything since. The slimmed down ones for 3rd edition were £8, and those are closer to what is on sale today in content.

Such cherry picking. Marines weren't £20 in 1997 unless you're relying on metal prices, regular multipart Space marines were only 10 for £10 when first released for 3rd edition. Almost unchanged they are now £25. Catachans were 20 for £10 and are now 10 for £18.

I think what's amazing is that prices for a huge swath of stuff really haven't gone up as much as we think. Some stuff went way up (Cadians/Catachans being the worst offenders), but a lot of early 2000s plastics that used to be $20 a squad/regiment are now pushing $50. Vehicles are also pricey, but they've always been pricey. In the last eight years or so, the vehicles have gotten larger, more detailed, and with far more options, making apples to apples comparisons tricky.

 Polonius wrote:
I think what's amazing is that prices for a huge swath of stuff really haven't gone up as much as we think. Some stuff went way up (Cadians/Catachans being the worst offenders, but a lot of early 2000s plastics that used to be $20 a squad/regiment are now pushing $50. Vehicles are also pricey, but they've always been pricey. In the last eight years or so, the vehicles have gotten larger, more detailed, and with far more options, making apples to apples comparisons tricky.

Well it just highlights that there was a sudden drop in price in the early 2000's and very late 90's when plastics starting coming out in a big way and then we've been steadily rising since.

The cost of actually playing a game has always been steadily rising though because in the mid to late 90's a couple of boxes of troops and a character or two was a sufficient force to play a game. When the plastics came out, the game size increased simultaneously with the price drop (2nd -> 3rd), so the overall price of playing your typical game didn't really change much.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I think what's amazing is that prices for a huge swath of stuff really haven't gone up as much as we think. Some stuff went way up (Cadians/Catachans being the worst offenders, but a lot of early 2000s plastics that used to be $20 a squad/regiment are now pushing $50. Vehicles are also pricey, but they've always been pricey. In the last eight years or so, the vehicles have gotten larger, more detailed, and with far more options, making apples to apples comparisons tricky.

Well it just highlights that there was a sudden drop in price in the early 2000's and very late 90's when plastics starting coming out in a big way and then we've been steadily rising since.

The cost of actually playing a game has always been steadily rising though because in the mid to late 90's a couple of boxes of troops and a character or two was a sufficient force to play a game. When the plastics came out, the game size increased simultaneously with the price drop (2nd -> 3rd), so the overall price of playing your typical game didn't really change much.

Oh, for sure. It's just interesting that the data are more nuanced than I thought.

Prices are all over the place. You can see this in action by visiting a GW shop as I did on Tuesday to look at Lizard Men and Tyranids. Some of the core units are good value for money. The Lizard Battalion box, for instance. But you get a huge sticker price shock once you look at special characters (£9 each or more), the more powerful units (£31 for three models) and monsters (£35, £50 or even more for a single kit.)