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Made in us
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Catskills in NYS

Source

MOREHEAD, Ky. — Nearly two months after the Supreme Court declared a constitutional right to same-sex marriage, a county clerk’s office here — in defiance of a federal court order — turned away two gay couples seeking marriage licenses on Thursday, taking a stand that has infuriated gay rights advocates but buoyed Christian conservatives who insist their religious freedoms are being violated.

Kim Davis, the clerk in Rowan County, who says her Christian faith bars her from authorizing same-sex marriages, has refused to issue any licenses, either to same-sex or heterosexual couples. Her actions come in the wake of the historic ruling in June in the case of Obergefell v. Hodges, despite a direct order from Gov. Steven L. Beshear, that she do so.

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Gov. Steven L. Beshear did not offer a defense of the marriage law, which was passed in 2004.Kentucky Law Official Will Not Defend Ban on Same-Sex MarriageMARCH 4, 2014
On Wednesday, Judge David L. Bunning of the United States District Court of Eastern Kentucky, ruling in a case brought by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of four couples — two same-sex and two heterosexual — ordered Ms. Davis to resume issuing licenses. But lawyers for Ms. Davis immediately appealed, and Thursday morning, Ms. Davis did not show up at work.

Continue reading the main story

Struggling for Gay Equality in the South
“People are cruel, and this is wrong,” said David Ermold, 41, who with his partner, David Moore, 39, went to the clerk’s office here, where they were told that no licenses would be issued today. Roberta Early, a deputy clerk, said the matter was “still under litigation, and nothing has changed, and we still can’t issue them.”

Mr. Ermold and Mr. Moore, who have lived in Morehead for 11 years, said they had felt humiliated by their experience and by the suggestion by Ms. Davis’ staff that they could go to another Kentucky county to get a marriage license. “Telling people to go to another county is like saying, ‘We don’t want your kind of people here,’ ” Mr. Moore said.

Advocates for gay rights say Ms. Davis, a member of an Apostolic Christian church who says she attends “whenever the doors are open,” is an outlier. The vast majority of public officials are carrying out the decision — even if they disagree with it — and gays and lesbians across America are marrying largely with ease. But Morehead, a tiny city of about 6,900 people in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains, is one of several pockets of resistance.

In Texas, officials on Monday agreed to list same-sex spouses on birth and death certificates after a federal judge threatened to hold the state’s attorney general in contempt of court. In Mississippi, four couples filed suit Wednesday to overturn the state’s ban on same-sex adoptions, the last such law in the nation.

In Alabama, probate judges in 13 of 67 counties are, like Ms. Davis, declining to issue marriage licenses to anyone. One, Judge Nick Williams of Washington County, has urged the state justices to issue a “landmark ruling” to defy the Supreme Court. And State Senator Greg Albritton is calling for the state to get out of the marriage license business entirely.

“We’re going to have litigation in Alabama, I am certain of it,” Mr. Albritton said, “over whether probate judges have a choice to accept or decline to issue the license and conduct the ceremony.”

In Kentucky, the A.C.L.U. suit is the nation’s first legal test, post-Obergefell, of how far a public official can go in resisting the decision. Ms. Davis is one of two county clerks — the state has 120 — who have defied Governor Beshear’s directive. Ms. Davis is also suing the governor, claiming that he violated her religious freedom. Her lawyer, Roger Gannam, says he will seek a stay of Judge Bunning’s ruling.

Experts had predicted Judge Bunning’s decision.

“Her case will go nowhere,” said Katherine Franke, an expert on sexuality law, as well as religious exemptions, at Columbia Law School, earlier this week, adding that previous cases in which public officials have sought not to perform their duties on religious grounds have ended much the same way. “She doesn’t get to pick and choose which of her duties she will perform.”

But Christian conservatives are watching closely.

“This case could be a marker of how the religious freedom aspects of same-sex marriage are going to be worked out,” said Mr. Gannam, who represents Ms. Davis on behalf of Liberty Counsel, a nonprofit organization in Florida that specializes in religious exceptions cases. “Many in Christian circles believe we are only now beginning the culture wars over marriage.”

Those culture wars are playing out with vigor in Morehead and its surrounding county, Rowan, where some churches sent congregants by the busload to rally for Ms. Davis when she appeared in court. “We feel very proud of her,” said the Rev. Harley Sexton Jr. of Sharkey Freewill Baptist Church, “that she has taken a religious stand against the state.”

But Morehead is also home to Morehead State University, which gives the city a liberal streak. At a downtown coffee shop and bookstore, where organic soaps and locally made jewelry share display space with books, even patrons uncomfortable with same-sex marriage say Ms. Davis must follow the new law of the land.

“Most people believe she has the right to feel the way she does,” said Robin Mirus, a mortgage loan officer, “but when anybody in public office takes a pledge, they are obligated to do the job that they said they were going to do.”

In his ruling, Judge Bunning agreed.

“Davis remains free to practice her Apostolic Christian beliefs,” the judge wrote. “She may continue to attend church twice a week, participate in Bible study and minister to female inmates at the Rowan County jail. She is even free to believe that marriage is a union between one man and one woman, as many Americans do. However, her religious convictions cannot excuse her from performing the duties that she took an oath to perform as Rowan County clerk.”

Ms. Davis spent 27 years as the Rowan County deputy clerk, serving under her mother, before winning election in her own right in 2014. She declined to be interviewed, but her court testimony makes it clear that she saw the conflict coming.

As the Supreme Court was considering the Obergefell case, she testified, she emailed state lawmakers, pleading with them “to get a bill on the floor to help protect clerks who had a moral issue.” Her decision to quit issuing licenses to all couples rather than single out same-sex couples was one, she said, “that I had prayed and fasted over weekly.”

Other clerks had similar qualms, said Chris Jobe, president of the Kentucky County Clerks Association. After the Obergefell ruling, 60 clerks in Kentucky agreed to sign a petition to the governor saying they objected on religious grounds. But most, fearing they would lose their jobs, decided in the end to issue licenses.

“I’m a Christian and I firmly believe marriage is between a man and a woman,” Mr. Jobe said. “But I have a family and kids. It’s been a very stressful time.”

April Miller, 54, a professor of special education at the university, said she and her partner, Karen Roberts, “were ecstatic” when the Supreme Court verdict came. The two have been together, first as friends and then as partners, for nearly two decades, and have raised Ms. Roberts’ 21-year-old daughter, who has intellectual disabilities. Then they heard that Ms. Davis was not issuing marriage licenses.

“I looked at Karen and I was like, ‘What do you mean? She can’t do this,’ ” Ms. Miller said. “I really thought when somebody started pushing it, she would fold.”

A few days later, the two left their home at the edge of the Daniel Boone National Forest, hopped into their yellow Volkswagen Beetle and drove the long winding road down to the county courthouse, expecting to get a marriage license but were refused.

The next day, Kevin Holloway and Jody Fernandez were refused as well. After years of referring to Ms. Fernandez as “my wife,” Mr. Holloway, said he had hoped to “make it official.” But like Ms. Miller and Ms. Roberts, they left the courthouse here empty-handed.

“I don’t want to have a gay wedding — I want to have one with Jody — but I don’t care if other people do,” said Mr. Holloway, who, along with the others, is a plaintiff in the A.C.L.U. suit.

“Our Pledge of Allegiance says, ‘With liberty and justice for all.’ She doesn’t get to decide who ‘all’ is,” Mr. Holloway said, referring to the clerk.

Reaction in the community has been mixed. A Rowan County Rights Coalition has sprung up to support the plaintiffs; its members turn up at the courthouse waving rainbow flags. But Mr. Holloway, who owns a shop that reupholsters seating, said some people had told him to drop the suit “if you know what’s good for your business.” Ms. Roberts said she got a cool reception at her hair salon, while Ms. Miller said her secretary had told her she was “praying for my soul.”

Both couples remain optimistic, and both are planning weddings. Ms. Miller and Ms. Roberts have already bought matching diamond bands.

John Mura contributed reporting from Morehead, Ky.


*sigh*

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
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 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
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The Great State of Texas

Not issuing any. Sounds fair.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/13 18:11:37


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Fort Worth, TX

So much for separation of church and state.

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New Orleans, LA

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Source


Kim Davis, the clerk in Rowan County, who says her Christian faith bars her from authorizing same-sex marriages, has refused to issue any licenses, either to same-sex or heterosexual couples.



Then quit. Do your job or quit.

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
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The Great State of Texas

 kronk wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Source


Kim Davis, the clerk in Rowan County, who says her Christian faith bars her from authorizing same-sex marriages, has refused to issue any licenses, either to same-sex or heterosexual couples.



Then quit. Do your job or quit.


No no no. This person is a saint. Just think of all the lives she's saving by not permitting marriages for anyone. I think a Nobel prize is in order.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/13 18:19:34


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles

 kronk wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Source


Kim Davis, the clerk in Rowan County, who says her Christian faith bars her from authorizing same-sex marriages, has refused to issue any licenses, either to same-sex or heterosexual couples.



Then quit. Do your job or quit.


Agreed. I don't understand how the issue can be any more complex than that.

   
Made in fi
Confessor Of Sins




A person should have some right to uphold her beliefs, that's true. But if Jesus could admit that worldly power and the divine are different things then I'd hope anyone claiming to follow him could do so too. You know, the famous "give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar and unto God what belongs to God" part.

if she's the only one who can do something legally binding for people she despises then maybe she should step aside or just do her duty. She doesn't have to personally approve, just do her job. Pray for the people afterwards if it really feels bad. If the government you work for allows something you see as a sin then rest assured God will handle it later.

   
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Norwalk, Connecticut

She's clearly in the wrong job. But at least she's doing the "all or nothing" approach.

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 kronk wrote:

Then quit. Do your job or quit.


Agreed. I don't understand how the issue can be any more complex than that.
I actually disagree. Even though I agree she is being an asshat. Forcing someone to choose between their job and their faith is often considered discrimination. For example, Sikhs and Muslims are often exempt from beard and hat regulations which would conflict with their faith. I don't think it would be fair to just disregard their beliefs by saying "If you don't want to shave, don't do the job".

However, I don't think religion can be used as a catch-all "do whatever the hell you want", especially when that means discriminating against others.

I think she has a case, I don't think it's a very good case. It would be much stronger if she could propose a satisfactory solution that would allow her to do her job, better than just "no one can get married anymore". Hopefully, it will be decided that she is not being discriminated against, at which point, I think it would be fair to say "do the job, or get out".

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/08/13 20:25:02


 
   
Made in us
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 Smacks wrote:
Forcing someone to choose between their job and their faith is often considered discrimination.


So what is it called when you refuse to do your job, that you voluntarily entered, based entirely on religious beliefs?

Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles

 Smacks wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 kronk wrote:

Then quit. Do your job or quit.


Agreed. I don't understand how the issue can be any more complex than that.
I actually disagree. Even though I agree she is being an asshat. Forcing someone to choose between their job and their faith is often considered discrimination. For example, Sikhs and Muslims are often exempt from beard and hat regulations which would conflict with their faith. I don't think it would be fair to just disregard their beliefs by saying "If you don't want to shave, don't do the job".

However, I don't think religion can be used as a catch-all "do whatever the hell you want", especially when that means discriminating against others.

I think she has a case, I don't think it's a very good case. It would be much stronger if she could propose a satisfactory solution that would allow her to do her job, which is better than just "no one can get married anymore". Hopefully, it will be decided that she is not being discriminated against, at which point, I think it would be fair to say "do the job, or get out".



Sorry, no. Religious belief is a choice. Holding down a job is a choice. If one conflicts with the other it is on the adherent to figure out which wins, their faith or their occupation. The religious person should not be able to arbitrarily decide which functions of their job they will do so that their occupation aligns with their chosen religion.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






What's her job description? Duty and Responsibilities? Statement of Work if she union? If it says issuing marriage license then she does not have a leg to stand on nor a kickstand for an assist.

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My dear Kim Davis, go get a job whose basic duties do not conflict with your religious convictions.
   
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 Ahtman wrote:
So what is it called when you refuse to do your job, that you voluntarily entered, based entirely on religious beliefs?
As I said, I don't think she has a very good case. I can't see the right to discriminate on religious grounds being protected by anti-discrimination laws. However, I think she is entitled to a legal process to clarify that (assuming there isn't a legal precedent already in place).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/13 20:33:06


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






I'm going to back up a bit. Has KY wrote in same sex marriage into their Marriage License Issuance? If not then she is in the right till it is put into policy to go into effect. Though a Memorandum would suffice. So far its verbal point: counter point. If its not on the books yet then she does have a leg to stand on

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

She's the elected Clerk of the County, which means she's not only an employee, but an elected official. That drastically limits her ability to claim exemptions due to her religion.

And as a rule, religious exemptions are allowed when they do not interfere with another's rights. So Jews and 7th Day Adventists would not work on Saturdays (but on Sundays), Sikhs can wear beards even when rules generally don't allow facial hair, that sort of thing.

What you cannot do, really in any context, is try to forbid others from doing something legal that you find a sin. (history is replete with examples of dominant religious codifying their taboos into law, but that's still a law). So Muslim Clerks must issue Liquor Licenses, Catholic cafeteria workers must serve meat during lent, etc.
   
Made in gb
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 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
If one conflicts with the other it is on the adherent to figure out which wins, their faith or their occupation.
The employer also has a responsibility to respect and not discriminate against people based on their religion, where that is reasonable. I personally agree that her demands are unreasonable and that she should be out on her ass. But it's not my decision.

Remember, this isn't my argument, it is hers. I don't want to try and defend her stupid position. I was just trying to explain why it is a little more complicated than just "do it or get out", since you claimed you didn't understand.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/13 21:08:00


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Thinking the Legal cost. If KY does not have guide lines for Same Sex Marriage at the moment then she's using the current wording, also she did the same to couples seeking traditional marriage. I'm trying to get her fired but if its not in the books already to issue Same Sex Marriage to those couple then its another legal battle.

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CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Smacks wrote:
 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
If one conflicts with the other it is on the adherent to figure out which wins, their faith or their occupation.
The employer also has a responsibility to respect and not discriminate against people based on their religion, where that is reasonable. I personally agree that her demands are unreasonable and that she should be out on her ass.

Remember, this isn't my argument it is hers. I don't want to try and defend her stupid position. I was just trying to explain why it is a little more complicated than just "do it or get out", since you claimed you didn't understand.


I suspect it is further complicated by the fact that when she took the job, this conflict with her religion did not exist. Often firing a public employee is a very troublesome process.

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Runnin up on ya.

 Frazzled wrote:
 kronk wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Source


Kim Davis, the clerk in Rowan County, who says her Christian faith bars her from authorizing same-sex marriages, has refused to issue any licenses, either to same-sex or heterosexual couples.



Then quit. Do your job or quit.


No no no. This person is a saint. Just think of all the lives she's saving by not permitting marriages for anyone. I think a Nobel prize is in order.


Canonize her this instant, I say!

Let's see what happens to you if you tell, "She who must be obeyed" your thoughts.

I just nod my head obediently whenever my queen deigns to recognize my presence.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
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Toledo, OH

 CptJake wrote:
Often firing a public employee is a very troublesome process.


Violating a court order is usually pretty good grounds.

She's also an elected official, not a bargaining unit employee.
   
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CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Polonius wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
Often firing a public employee is a very troublesome process.


Violating a court order is usually pretty good grounds.

She's also an elected official, not a bargaining unit employee.


So if her constituents are pissed at her behavior they should run a recall election, or ensure she is put out of office at the next general election.

On the other hand, if her constituents are happy with her actions and she gets reelected...

Wonder if they can impeach in that county?

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
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Beijing

All this hand-wringing about the 'conflict with my morals so I can't possibly do my job' is a real stretch given what they're being asked to do. You're in a local government office with the expectation of issuing licenses to people you know nothing about, yet some bleat about it like they're being expected to work in a concentration camp and bury the bodies.
   
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Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

Quit the job. When you are a government employee, you don't have the right to fall back on your beliefs as a guide. It's that damn simple.

Now, at the same time, the recent court ruling that a private bakery can be forced to bake cakes for homosexual weddings, even if they don't want to, is completely bogus in my eyes.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
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 Smacks wrote:
Forcing someone to choose between their job and their faith is often considered discrimination. For example, Sikhs and Muslims are often exempt from beard and hat regulations which would conflict with their faith. I don't think it would be fair to just disregard their beliefs by saying "If you don't want to shave, don't do the job".


True, but in their case those head coverings and beards don't really infringe on the rights of other people. A turbaned or bearded policeman can help the public just as well as a clean-shaven American Hero, and while you can make cases for officer safety in having no beards or long hair/head coverings that's usually not what it comes down to. Those full-face veils some people require their women to wear is a bit of a problem though, making it hard to identify people. Except the EU countries that have forbidden such probably had all of 100 women total who would have used such.

Personally, as a pasty-white Finn, I'd be delighted to have a turbaned Sikh police officer flag me in for a quick breathalyzer test or to point out to me that the speed limit is 50, not 55. And if he's being a dick about it my first thought isn't that he's doing it because he wants to inconvenience me for being white. He's just a man doing a potentially very stressful job.
   
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Toledo, OH

 CptJake wrote:
 Polonius wrote:
 CptJake wrote:
Often firing a public employee is a very troublesome process.


Violating a court order is usually pretty good grounds.

She's also an elected official, not a bargaining unit employee.


So if her constituents are pissed at her behavior they should run a recall election, or ensure she is put out of office at the next general election.

On the other hand, if her constituents are happy with her actions and she gets reelected...

Wonder if they can impeach in that county?


A state or federal judge could actually charge her with contempt of court and jail her, is the more likely outcome.

Now, she's clearly making a career change into professional martyrdom. We've seen how profitable being a pizza place that stands up to their beliefs is, so this might be a good career move in the long run.
   
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CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

I suspect even if jailed for contempt she would still hold the position though (meaning the county cannot fill it) until another election is held.

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Toledo, OH

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
All this hand-wringing about the 'conflict with my morals so I can't possibly do my job' is a real stretch given what they're being asked to do. You're in a local government office with the expectation of issuing licenses to people you know nothing about, yet some bleat about it like they're being expected to work in a concentration camp and bury the bodies.



One thing that US courts aggressively try to avoid is determining if a "religious belief" is legitimate or not. All of the First Amendment caselaw I've seen has hinged on the "sincerity" of the belief, and the effect that the belief has on others. And that's for the best.

So, nobody wants to untangle if doing this really is a problem for her religion. But.. there's plenty of precedent that your beliefs do not direct the actions of others.
   
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Catskills in NYS

 djones520 wrote:
Quit the job. When you are a government employee, you don't have the right to fall back on your beliefs as a guide. It's that damn simple.

Now, at the same time, the recent court ruling that a private bakery can be forced to bake cakes for homosexual weddings, even if they don't want to, is completely bogus in my eyes.


"Interracial Marriages are against my religion."

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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Toledo, OH

 CptJake wrote:
I suspect even if jailed for contempt she would still hold the position though (meaning the county cannot fill it) until another election is held.


Under nearly all home-rule laws, the Governor would appoint a person to fill the position. States are political entities with rights that the Feds cannot take (in theory). Counties are run entirely as the State sees fit, and there are almost certainly provisions for an instance like this.
   
 
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