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So my last game I had 2x10man assault squads. Each had 2 eviserators, 2 flamers and a srg with Melta bombs and either a powerfist or thunder hammer.

Problem was: in a fight with normal tac marines i simply did not do enough damage as was tied up for 4 turns. Ended up getting counter charged by another tac squad (so each am squad was fighting 2 tac squads)

And while I didn't lose, it was a long boring fight doing 1-2 wounds each. Both fights involved my srg challenged and mutually killing the tac squad seargent (they had fists as well and same init = we both died same time)

What I was thinking to counter this and give the squads more "pow" was obvious. Add a character. What I can't decide on tho, is should I add a captain to each? Or go with something else. And if I take captains, what's the best load out?
Right now I'm thinking one with dual powerfists, the other with lightning claws. This would give them an extra Attack, and be pretty fighty to boot

Unless maybe chaplains / Libby's are better?

That's the problem with marines vs marines in combat, they usually end up just bashing out for a few turns.

A power sword or lightning claw would do the trick, something that'll hit at initiative, remove those saves and guarantee you a kill each round.

But sometimes that doesn't even work. My Death Company with a librarian were help up by ork boys in their last game and the nob killed my librarian in a challenge despite him being stronger, faster and having better weapons.

I would add either a librarian or chaplain with jump pack, preferably the chaplain for a guaranteed buff in the first round of combat (hatred ftw). Libby is useful too as long as you can get the powers off.

if you've already loaded up points on two eviscerators for each squad then i'd say just go for a more buff based character like a Chaplain or Librarian, makes what you've spent in points already a bit more worthwhile

To fit the characters I need to drop a few members of the squads. So I'm dropping to 5 men teams with a single eviseretor. I'm hoping that plus srg us captain (or Killy character) will be able to "one shot" most normal infantry units such as tac squads etc.

But not too sure on the load out for characters.

No need to take a fist on the sergeant of you have bombs and eviscerators. Give him a sword. If you play DA their librarians are quite good in assault squads

Playing imperial fists. Hence the powerfists. Cause FISTS .....
Um. Yea.

So next question. Basic guy with eviserator is 1 Attack. Srg with fist gets 2. Would I not want as many str 8 ap2 as I can get? Not only for vehicles but insta death, etc?

 DarthSpader wrote:
Playing imperial fists. Hence the powerfists. Cause FISTS .....
Um. Yea.

So next question. Basic guy with eviserator is 1 Attack. Srg with fist gets 2. Would I not want as many str 8 ap2 as I can get? Not only for vehicles but insta death, etc?

'Cept the iconic weapon of the fists isn't a power fist, that's an Ultramarines and Crimson Fist thing. The Imperial Fists are famous for swordsmanship and bolters. Put power swords on your sarges as previously mentioned.

Assault squads are bullies. They aren't really that great at assault in the scheme of things. You can't give the sarge a really juicy weapon because he will be challenged out.

Yea. Challenges are literally the worst thing to happen to this game. I've zero idea why gw thinks it's decent. Worst gak ever.

Is also why I want to add a fighty character to each. Make challenges less appealing to the other side. When I've got a super fighty captain/chaplain whatever in the unit less Likley for other guy to issue. Cause character can take it and beat face while srg lays into the groobers.

Just gotta sort out the character builds

They are not that bad in 7th, now they have gotten rid of the 'Moral Support' Rule and allow blows to go into and out of the challenge.

Bare bones secondary HQs work quite well.

Chaplain, jump pack
Librarian, ML2, jump pack (biomancy) If you are hunting MEQ, the force sword is your go-to choice. Harder targets probably want the axe, and the maul/staff is a good all-around pick.

Both these guys are force multipliers, They take the squad, and make them batter. A captain is just a beat stick. The marines with him are just ablative wounds.

You are putting a lot of points into upgrades. I generally like smaller squads with fewer toys. Although a vet sarge with a power weapon usually is worth it here. I’m not a fan of fists on 1W models, but YMMV. With a HQ to soak the challenge with the unit, he should live to swing.

with the amount of points you're spending on "2 eviserators, 2 flamers and a srg with Melta bombs and either a powerfist or thunder hammer"

You could just take vanguard veterans instead and benefit from having 2 base attacks and throw some power axes on for cheaper than eviserators.

 DarthSpader wrote:
Yea. Challenges are literally the worst thing to happen to this game. I've zero idea why gw thinks it's decent. Worst gak ever.

Is also why I want to add a fighty character to each. Make challenges less appealing to the other side. When I've got a super fighty captain/chaplain whatever in the unit less Likley for other guy to issue. Cause character can take it and beat face while srg lays into the groobers.

Just gotta sort out the character builds

IMO the issue is that it doesn't fit the Space Marine MO. Challenges should be entirely optional with the ability to turn them down having zero consequences, it's just something you do for fun. Or maybe only Characters can't turn it down- HQ must accept. But a Space Marine Sergeant is just as likely to tell a challenger to sod off while his squad bulldozes the enemy as he is to charge in like a moron out of honor.

Indeed, Imperial Fists retorts would probably be a volley of bolter fire to the guy who issued the challenge.

The assault squads are part of skyhammer formation. So can't sub them for vanguard .... Although if it turns out to be as broken as people say I may forgoe that and take the vanguards instead.

The reason I was thinking captains was to be purely a "beatstick" - didn't think of the force multiplier. I've also got the models for captains (converted and blinged up sang gaurd) and I don't have librarian or chaplain models.

Tho I suppose i could counts as or pick up some.

Right now I'm working with:
Captain (2xfists, Melta bomb) with 5 assault marines. Srg with fist, 1 guy with eviserator.

Then
Captain (2xlightning claws, bombs) and a duplicate assault squad.

Hopefully with the skyhammer rules these guys should hit target unit and tear it apart pretty quick. The reason for the differing captain loadouts is mainly pts but also cause I like the twin fist/claw look.

I'd be interested to see the math vrs a tac squad (with srg packing fist) for both above captain builds then compared to chaplain / Libby. I'm terrible with that kind of thing tho.

 DarthSpader wrote:
The assault squads are part of skyhammer formation. So can't sub them for vanguard .... Although if it turns out to be as broken as people say I may forgoe that and take the vanguards instead.

The reason I was thinking captains was to be purely a "beatstick" - didn't think of the force multiplier. I've also got the models for captains (converted and blinged up sang gaurd) and I don't have librarian or chaplain models.

Tho I suppose i could counts as or pick up some.

Right now I'm working with:
Captain (2xfists, Melta bomb) with 5 assault marines. Srg with fist, 1 guy with eviserator.

Then
Captain (2xlightning claws, bombs) and a duplicate assault squad.

Hopefully with the skyhammer rules these guys should hit target unit and tear it apart pretty quick. The reason for the differing captain loadouts is mainly pts but also cause I like the twin fist/claw look.

I'd be interested to see the math vrs a tac squad (with srg packing fist) for both above captain builds then compared to chaplain / Libby. I'm terrible with that kind of thing tho.

Why on earth would you take Vanguard? Assault Squads are bad, but Vanguard are just as brittle Assault Squads who cost you even more. Switch to power swords, try to shred enemy tac squads. But dump all of your points into your devastators and give them all grav cannons with grav amps.

Vanguard are fantastic, the weapons and storm shield are so cheap and you can leave the sarge barebones so challenges don't touch them

Seriously though if you are putting that much into an assault squad a character who makes those guys better is a better idea than just a beatstick, a beatstick doesn't need other people helping him much he needs cheap bodyguards