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Yup we got another one. Now please note that i am first and foremost an Ork player, so i hate Tau on principle Now that being said, i feel for them. The have some really great units (Crisis, Broadsides, the Riptide) and then they have some meh-lousy units (Kroot, Firewarriors) and then there's the hot garbage (Vespid, poor poor Vespid). Seriously, an army's Troop choice shouldnt be a tax to the good stuff, they should be a solid unit that you want, but maybe thats just my Orkiness talking. So off the top of my head, heres a few changes:

1. Tweak the Riptide. Make it a Walker, up the points, make it a LoW, something. This thing is in an odd place.
2. Improve Firewarriors. Seriously, they need it, BS 4 is not unreasonable.
3. Make Vespid not suck. JSJ with an extra shot or and extra shot with more range, one or the other may make them useful.
4. Weapon options for the troops. Yes Tau have a bunch of sweet toys, but when Orks have more weapon options on their Tropps something seems off.

Theres my 2 Teef, so what do the rest of you think?

Buffing fire warrior BS doens't make sense because then a veteran who's been fighting for decades in his fancy suit is a less capable shooter than a foot soldier straight out of boot camp. I feel like the better answer would be to tweak markerlight while also making them easier to obtain in reasonable amounts so they can compensate for lake of high base BS while also making it so they don't effectively remove all cover for the enemy team.

Vespid don't suck in the current codex. They kill marines pretty effectively. The problem is they need to compete with path finders and other fast attack slots. They're also over priced, metal and frankly look ugly. With all that taken into account, it's no wonder they don't get picked often if at all. I feel like a price change would be nice.

The riptide is honestly pretty fine IMO.

As for weapons, I would love to see fire warriors have access to rail rifles and ion guns. If path finders have them, then so should fire warriors. I'd honestly like to see most of the path finder toys be available for fire warriors (excluding markerlights) also, a shas'ui's markerlight should buff his own unit. Same goes for fire blade markerlights.

There's already a bazillion threads about this. I refer you to one of them.

As for an answer:
Drop missile pods of all kinds to Str 6, nerf riptides & markerlights and buff just about any other unit.

Jaxler wrote:
Buffing fire warrior BS doens't make sense because then a veteran who's been fighting for decades in his fancy suit is a less capable shooter than a foot soldier straight out of boot camp. I feel like the better answer would be to tweak markerlight while also making them easier to obtain in reasonable amounts so they can compensate for lake of high base BS while also making it so they don't effectively remove all cover for the enemy team.

Vespid don't suck in the current codex. They kill marines pretty effectively. The problem is they need to compete with path finders and other fast attack slots. They're also over priced, metal and frankly look ugly. With all that taken into account, it's no wonder they don't get picked often if at all. I feel like a price change would be nice.

The riptide is honestly pretty fine IMO.

As for weapons, I would love to see fire warriors have access to rail rifles and ion guns. If path finders have them, then so should fire warriors. I'd honestly like to see most of the path finder toys be available for fire warriors (excluding markerlights) also, a shas'ui's markerlight should buff his own unit. Same goes for fire blade markerlights.

How does it not make sense, Tau dont do Melee Training, so they focus on shooting. Also note that Skitarri Rangers (who have not been fighting fro years) have BS 4, FNP 6+, Relentless, and Move Through Cover. Oh and they cost 2 more points than a Fire Warrior. You see the problem here?

Yes Vespid kill Marines, but that stopped being impressive awhile ago and they only get one shot each, which is sad.

DaPino wrote:
There's already a bazillion threads about this. I refer you to one of them.

As for an answer:
Drop missile pods of all kinds to Str 6, nerf riptides & markerlights and buff just about any other unit.

Why are we dropping Missiles to Str 6? Its their Autocannon.

Id give'em a massively over powered hand to hand combat unit. Remember how necrons used to be bad at HtH, but noware some of the best? Just like that.

 Red Marine wrote:
Id give'em a massively over powered hand to hand combat unit. Remember how necrons used to be bad at HtH, but noware some of the best? Just like that.

*starts writing on pad* Make....Kroot....not....suck. Got it.

I don't mind firewarriors being BS3, but crisis suits should be bumped up to 4 as they are the elite forces of the Tau. Sometimes there rolls are very inconsistent and you can't always twin-link everything.

Make Kroot Strength 4 and initiative 4, they're lot stronger than humans and eldar and a lot faster than humans but probably not as fast as eldar.

Give Longstrike preferred enemy: Super Heavy instead of Preferred enemy: Imperial Guard.

Let Rail weapons role 2 dice to pen and pick the highest (is that ordnance?)

Give Pathfinders and Darkstrider Stealth and allow Darkstrider's ability to reduce armour values by 1 as well as toughness by 1.

Make Vespid ALOT cheaper, despite what people say I think they have a place, just not at that cost.

Don't think any of this is too much to ask.

Make Hammerhead railgun Str D and the heavy rail rifle S8 AP 0 armorbane. Heavy rail rifles also cause 2 wounds to MCs. Give option for EM ammo that ignores MC and super heavy invuln saves. Ie: Heavy rail rifles massacre IKs, as they should. IKs should be a joke for the Tau in general in my mind. They should also be able to blow Dreadknights apart trivially with a heavy rail rifle with EM ammo. It's time all MC users see what the Tyranids have to put with.

Make Devilfish actually useful. Bring back the pseudo fast upgrade and give them an ignore cover option as well.

Give Tau a unit with built-in EOW that is short ranged that mulches meqs so they have a good defense against pod shenanigans. This unit would be of limited value against marines not using the hated pods, of course.

Raise base price of Riptide slighty. Raise price of IA a lot. 60" squad removal is incredibly powerful on a platform that NEVER dies. Make heavy burst cannon worth a crap: get rid of gets hot!

Taffy17 wrote:
Make Kroot Strength 4 and initiative 4, they're lot stronger than humans and eldar and a lot faster than humans but probably not as fast as eldar.

Give Longstrike preferred enemy: Super Heavy instead of Preferred enemy: Imperial Guard.

Let Rail weapons role 2 dice to pen and pick the highest (is that ordnance?)

Give Pathfinders and Darkstrider Stealth and allow Darkstrider's ability to reduce armour values by 1 as well as toughness by 1.

Make Vespid ALOT cheaper, despite what people say I think they have a place, just not at that cost.

Don't think any of this is too much to ask.

I can agree with these, and i think that is Ordnance. Not sure though

Martel732 wrote:
Make Hammerhead railgun Str D and the heavy rail rifle S8 AP 0 armorbane. Heavy rail rifles also cause 2 wounds to MCs. Give option for EM ammo that ignores MC and super heavy invuln saves. Ie: Heavy rail rifles massacre IKs, as they should. IKs should be a joke for the Tau in general in my mind. They should also be able to blow Dreadknights apart trivially with a heavy rail rifle with EM ammo. It's time all MC users see what the Tyranids have to put with.

Make Devilfish actually useful. Bring back the pseudo fast upgrade and give them an ignore cover option as well.

Give Tau a unit with built-in EOW that is short ranged that mulches meqs so they have a good defense against pod shenanigans. This unit would be of limited value against marines not using the hated pods, of course.

Raise base price of Riptide slighty. Raise price of IA a lot. 60" squad removal is incredibly powerful on a platform that NEVER dies. Make heavy burst cannon worth a crap: get rid of gets hot!

I think D is excessive, it is a great gun, but it isnt that potent.

Armorbane sounds fine on the Rail Rifl, though the 2 wounds or ignore invuln saves seems excessive. Tau are already good at busting vehicles. IK included. Also Dreadnaughts get wrecked anyway..

Devilfish with Flame Throwers? Could be fun.

I think Tau already have a solid defense against Drop Pods. They're pretty much the only army with Interceptor without Skyfire.

I can agree with this, a cost increase of 50 points seems reasonable, considering how good it is.

4. Weapon options for the troops. Yes Tau have a bunch of sweet toys, but when Orks have more weapon options on their Tropps something seems off.

Ork troop weapon options: Pistol, CCW, Shoota. then 1 in 10 can have a Rokkit Launcha or a Big Shoota.

Thats ALL the weapon options Ork Boyz can take. So........ yeah.

Also if your going to make Kroot S4 I4 because they are stronger then humans then why aren't my Ork boyz S4 or even S5 considering they can arm wrestle space marines?

", though the 2 wounds or ignore invuln saves seems excessive. Tau are already good at busting vehicles. IK included. Also Dreadnaughts get wrecked anyway.."

I don't think it's excessive in 7th ed. Tau are actually somewhat weak against vehicles at the moment, as single shot weapons are miserable in 7th ed.

I have already given up on dreadnoughts, but I'm trying to propose some weapons that MCs and super heavy walkers have to respect instead of just LOLing their way to victory.

"I think Tau already have a solid defense against Drop Pods. They're pretty much the only army with Interceptor without Skyfire."

The problem being that it is almost always better to wait for marker light support in their real shooting phase.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

4. Weapon options for the troops. Yes Tau have a bunch of sweet toys, but when Orks have more weapon options on their Tropps something seems off.

Ork troop weapon options: Pistol, CCW, Shoota. then 1 in 10 can have a Rokkit Launcha or a Big Shoota.

Thats ALL the weapon options Ork Boyz can take. So........ yeah.

Also if your going to make Kroot S4 I4 because they are stronger then humans then why aren't my Ork boyz S4 or even S5 considering they can arm wrestle space marines?

I didnt say they where particularly good (though i love my Big Shootas) i just said we had more.

I could live with Kroot being S 4, as they are still T 3, though they should lose Furious Charge if the get that bump. Another thing that may be fun is, keep them at S3, but give them Hammer of Wrath, as they usually pounce on their opponents, give it a Range restriction comparable to Orks (though not that far as that is stupid far, and i hate that rule cuz of that) So if they charge say, 8 inches (even if they dont go that far) they get HoW

Martel732 wrote:
", though the 2 wounds or ignore invuln saves seems excessive. Tau are already good at busting vehicles. IK included. Also Dreadnaughts get wrecked anyway.."

I don't think it's excessive in 7th ed. Tau are actually somewhat weak against vehicles at the moment, as single shot weapons are miserable in 7th ed.

I have already given up on dreadnoughts, but I'm trying to propose some weapons that MCs and super heavy walkers have to respect instead of just LOLing their way to victory.

"I think Tau already have a solid defense against Drop Pods. They're pretty much the only army with Interceptor without Skyfire."

The problem being that it is almost always better to wait for marker light support in their real shooting phase.

This is why i advocate BS 4 Tau, they fact that the NEED markerlights just screams wrong to me. No army should NEED a unit that bad.

As to the Superheavies, i think thats more of an issue with a few particular ones then them as a whole. I mean i've never heard anyone complain about a Stompa or a Baneblade.

"As to the Superheavies, i think thats more of an issue with a few particular ones"

I'm really looking for some weapon system that don't make MCs and super heavies auto-takes. There need to be incentives to take single shot weapons in 7th ed, because currently, there are very, very few reasons to do this.

" I mean i've never heard anyone complain about a Stompa or a Baneblade."

I've never seen these, only the ones that people DO complain about.

Martel732 wrote:
"As to the Superheavies, i think thats more of an issue with a few particular ones"

I'm really looking for some weapon system that don't make MCs and super heavies auto-takes. There need to be incentives to take single shot weapons in 7th ed, because currently, there are very, very few reasons to do this.

" I mean i've never heard anyone complain about a Stompa or a Baneblade."

I've never seen these, only the ones that people DO complain about.

I dont think MC will ever not be auto takes. I mean they have been for, well, almost ever, and some armies really need them.

 Grimmor wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"As to the Superheavies, i think thats more of an issue with a few particular ones"

I'm really looking for some weapon system that don't make MCs and super heavies auto-takes. There need to be incentives to take single shot weapons in 7th ed, because currently, there are very, very few reasons to do this.

" I mean i've never heard anyone complain about a Stompa or a Baneblade."

I've never seen these, only the ones that people DO complain about.

I dont think MC will ever not be auto takes. I mean they have been for, well, almost ever, and some armies really need them.

Good. Then we can make as many anti-MC weapons as we like then for the game.

Fire Warriors do not get BS4 because the whole codex is designed around Tau units being mediocre on their own, which is more or less the case with the exception of missile-equipped broadsides. Of course BS3 doesn't cut it -- it's supposed to not cut it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes they do need markerlights or some other force multiplier like a cadre fireblade or ethereal -- this is done on purpose. If you want to give them BS4, get rid of the force multipliers.

Agreed. Can anyone point out to me exactly what the ISSUE with Fire Warriors is that they need improved? They only cost 9 points. For that they get one of the best basic shooting weapons in the entire game, and incredible overwatch abilities which just get sicker the more Tau they have near them. Combine them with just a few Markerlights, and those 9 point Fire Warriors are firing at BS5 with Ignores Cover.

Yes they fold in Assault. But GETTING to assault them is right difficult. I mean how awesome does a 9 point model have to be?

Fire Warriors I think are only "bad" in comparison to Riptides, Crisis Suits, and Broadsides. But that tells me that there is something more likely wrong with Riptides, Crisis Suits, and Broadsides to be honest.

Alcibiades wrote:
Fire Warriors do not get BS4 because the whole codex is designed around Tau units being mediocre on their own, which is more or less the case with the exception of missile-equipped broadsides. Of course BS3 doesn't cut it -- it's supposed to not cut it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes they do need markerlights or some other force multiplier like a cadre fireblade or ethereal -- this is done on purpose. If you want to give them BS4, get rid of the force multipliers.

Except Ethereals dont make them shoot better, and Fireblades take up your HQ slots, slots which are usually better spent on a Crisis Commander. Also thats a terrible design philosophy considering even with those "force multipliers" Tau Firewarriors are still mdiocre, there'r a reason we dont see gunline Tau anymore, its bad . Especially in a world with Skitarri Rangers who are just Firewarriors++

If we are going to keep them BS 3, then drop their points, as it stand they are not worth their cost imo.

Murrdox wrote:
Agreed. Can anyone point out to me exactly what the ISSUE with Fire Warriors is that they need improved? They only cost 9 points. For that they get one of the best basic shooting weapons in the entire game, and incredible overwatch abilities which just get sicker the more Tau they have near them. Combine them with just a few Markerlights, and those 9 point Fire Warriors are firing at BS5 with Ignores Cover.

Yes they fold in Assault. But GETTING to assault them is right difficult. I mean how awesome does a 9 point model have to be?

Fire Warriors I think are only "bad" in comparison to Riptides, Crisis Suits, and Broadsides. But that tells me that there is something more likely wrong with Riptides, Crisis Suits, and Broadsides to be honest.

A Skitarri Ranger is 11 points and gets the same gun and armor BS 4, FnP 6+, Relentless, and Move Through Cover, as well as Doctrina Imperitives and Scout (as he only doesnt get Scout if he is in an Unbound list) THATS the problem. Yes their Overwatch is scary, but no one cares anymore cuz the Assault phase is generally gak this Ed, so everyone is shooting. Also its the fact that you NEED those markerlights, Pathfinders aren't cheap, so when you factor in all that markerlight support to make Firewarriors good, they get a ton more expensive.

Make the fire blade benefits part of the devilfish transport rules. So the transport can buff it's unit like a ghost ark. Give it a downwash rule that reduces assault ranges in its vicinity due to jet blast. Make haywire and photon standard on all infantry.

 Grimmor wrote:


This is why i advocate BS 4 Tau, they fact that the NEED markerlights just screams wrong to me. No army should NEED a unit that bad.

Nope, Tau cant see sfa, they should need marker lights that badly.
Instead of trying to make your codex top tier, try and make your codex average. I bet you cant.

the ancient wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:


This is why i advocate BS 4 Tau, they fact that the NEED markerlights just screams wrong to me. No army should NEED a unit that bad.

Nope, Tau cant see sfa, they should need marker lights that badly.
Instead of trying to make your codex top tier, try and make your codex average. I bet you cant.

Dude, i play Orks and Sisters, i dont even play Tau.

 Grimmor wrote:

the ancient wrote:

 Grimmor wrote:


This is why i advocate BS 4 Tau, they fact that the NEED markerlights just screams wrong to me. No army should NEED a unit that bad.

Nope, Tau cant see sfa, they should need marker lights that badly.
Instead of trying to make your codex top tier, try and make your codex average. I bet you cant.

Dude, i play Orks and Sisters, i dont even play Tau.

Markerlights aren't dependent upon Pathfinders. You can have Markerlight Drones and Markerlights on squad leaders.

The only reasons you don't see those are that people complain that the unit cannot benefit from their own Markerlights, while ignoring the fact that by having Markerlight Drones spread throughout their Fire Warrior Squads and having the Fire Warrior Shas'ui equipped with Markerlight and Target Lock(which are purchased together for +5 points on both Fire Warrior Shas'ui and Stealth Team Shas'vre) you can create an overlapping field of Markerlights--never minding as well that with Target Lock you can have your Shas'ui/Shas'vre firing at a different unit than their squads and create what amounts to a daisy-chain of Markerlights.

Drones are BS 2, though at least cheap, the Shas'ui is 10 points to be able to take the markerlight which is another 15, so 34 points for a single markerlight in a Fire Warrior Squad, seems pretty pricey for what you get.

I would wait for them to be broken first.

 Kanluwen wrote:
ignoring the fact that by having Markerlight Drones spread throughout their Fire Warrior Squads and having the Fire Warrior Shas'ui equipped with Markerlight and Target Lock(which are purchased together for +5 points on both Fire Warrior Shas'ui and Stealth Team Shas'vre) you can create an overlapping field of Markerlights--never minding as well that with Target Lock you can have your Shas'ui/Shas'vre firing at a different unit than their squads and create what amounts to a daisy-chain of Markerlights.

It's not that it's ignored. Tau players are aware it exists, just that they aren't worth it or completely worthless.
To get a marker for a FW team you need a Shas'ui
Which can then purchase a marker and target lock for 25 points OVER a FW. Think you misread the cost.
The drones can be purchased if you purchase the Shas'ui, but these are BS 2.
So 25 points for a single target lock Markerlight
or 34 points for two BS2 Markerlights that shoot at the same target as the squad.

The Stealth Teams Shas'vre can purchase a markerlight, but you need to upgrade him as well first.
So that single marker is going to cost 15 points total.
Drones are the same issue, but the squad can purchase an upgrade to make them BS3.
But the unit itself is insanely expensive as it is.

Overlapping just doesn't really work that well. You are forced to fire squads at targets they don't want to shoot at. And it's not like this is going to be cheap enough where you could run it along with squads of marker units. Look at the FW squad. You end up paying 25 points for a single markerlight. That's over half the cost for a unit of pathfinders!

 Grimmor wrote:
Drones are BS 2, though at least cheap, the Shas'ui is 10 points to be able to take the markerlight which is another 15, so 34 points for a single markerlight in a Fire Warrior Squad, seems pretty pricey for what you get.

34 points for a single Markerlight in a Fire Warrior Squad, which is a minimum of 6 models.
You're talking 79 points for 6 models with Pulse Rifles, and a single model with a Pulse Rifle and Markerlight+Target Lock.
You can add a Markerlight Drone to the squad as well for another 12 points, so we'll ballpark it at 91 points for a bare minimum squad.

And for each of those 91 point squads, you can put a single Markerlight down on two separate targets each firing phase.

Add in a Crisis Team with 2x Markerlight Drones per suit, cap the squad out with 3 suits and each suit gets Target Lock and you have another set of 6 Markerlights being thrown down range.
Or a Stealth Team with Markerlight and Target Lock on the Shas'vre and 2x Markerlight Drones.

You can put a ton of Markerlights in without ever taking Pathfinders. The problem is that it necessitates a Tau player figuring this out and experimenting with it to see how they could play it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Which can then purchase a marker and target lock for 25 points OVER a FW. Think you misread the cost.

I did.

The drones can be purchased if you purchase the Shas'ui, but these are BS 2.

Drones are also 12 points and effectively wargear.
No sympathy for Tau players in that regard as it's cheaper than a Plasma Pistol or Power Weapon for a Guard Sergeant and the Shas'ui still retains their rifle(something that Guard Sergeants should do).

So 25 points for a single target lock Markerlight
or 34 points for two BS2 Markerlights that shoot at the same target as the squad.
The Stealth Teams Shas'vre can purchase a markerlight, but you need to upgrade him as well first.
So that single marker is going to cost 15 points total.
Drones are the same issue, but the squad can purchase an upgrade to make them BS3.
But the unit itself is insanely expensive as it is.

It's funny how it's such a burden to upgrade these characters when the units themselves are cheap to begin with for what you get.

Overlapping just doesn't really work that well. You are forced to fire squads at targets they don't want to shoot at.

Having been on the receiving end of daisy-chained Markerlights, yeah. It does work well when it actually works.

And it's not like this is going to be cheap enough where you could run it along with squads of marker units. Look at the FW squad. You end up paying 25 points for a single markerlight. That's over half the cost for a unit of pathfinders!

Then the problem is Pathfinders are costed too cheaply.

When they required a Devilfish, that price point was acceptable since they were taxed by requiring the Devilfish and its points cost.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The drones can be purchased if you purchase the Shas'ui, but these are BS 2.

Drones are also 12 points and effectively wargear.
No sympathy for Tau players in that regard as it's cheaper than a Plasma Pistol or Power Weapon for a Guard Sergeant and the Shas'ui still retains their rifle(something that Guard Sergeants should do).

They need to roll to hit, but don't need to roll to wound and you get no saves versus it.

So yes. Markerlights are broken and need to have their effectiveness DRASTICALLY reduced.

 Kanluwen wrote:
They need to roll to hit, but don't need to roll to wound and you get no saves versus it.

So yes. Markerlights are broken and need to have their effectiveness DRASTICALLY reduced.

Seriously? The effects are very similar to the edition before, with the exception of cover being much easier to strip. They made it a bit more manageable to field marker units, removed an option, and nerfed a second to the points it's useless.

BS boosts have remained the same and has never been an issue. Is your problem Ignore Cover or is it markerlights in general?

An easier fix would be that Ignores Cover removes cover given by terrain and night fighting. So wargear, special abilities, and the like would still benefit from cover while still giving a benefit to markers.

Again, rolling to hit on BS3/2. That is 50/50 at best.
Yeah you don't get cover or saves from it. It doesn't wound. Why would you?

Fullsize Pathfinder squad shooting 10 markers into a unit of marines. 10 shots, 5 hits, 1.67 markers get through.
Do you want them to roll against T as well just to make sure they are completely useless?
That's 110 points of models that is doing absolutely nothing.