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The imperial Guard, is one of the most numerous and prolific fighting forces in the galaxy. Within its ranks are an innumerable amount of men, women, vehicles, weaponry and aircraft. Some say that its strength is derived from its numbers, its vehicles, and its structure but as we all know military strength is relative and many of the Imperium's enemies possess these traits as well. The strength of the guard is not in its numbers, its technology or its production, but rather in the hearts of man. It is the guardsman that volunteers, it is the guardsman that storms the breach, it is the guardsman that kills, it is the guardsman that holds the line, and it is the guardsman that dies. They have fought on the beaches, in the streets, and in the air. The indomitable will of the guardsman holds out against the terrors of deamons, the power of witches, and the wrath of gods. It is he in his weakness that has become strong.

The guard is organized in such a way as to take advantage of its numerical superiority. Within this structure the guardsmen are treated like mere numbers. Even when organized as such the guardsman does not lose his spirit, his will, or his humanity. It is in the human spirit that the guard derives its identity. Sadly the guard is lacking the spirit that it should have. The guardsman is useless, and his squad is worth little more.

I guess what I'm saying is that the guardsman needs to be put back into the guard.

A price drop in platoons and make lasguns worth a damn please

This has been discussed in one of the largest threads I have seen on this site:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651867.page

But that being said, I'd like to see some sort of special rule where if a platoon. or squad gets wiped out on the next turn an equal sized squad enters from the players table edge to really emulate the never ending numbers.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:


But that being said, I'd like to see some sort of special rule where if a platoon. or squad gets wiped out on the next turn an equal sized squad enters from the players table edge to really emulate the never ending numbers.

That does nothing to alleviate the lack of character. That is a mechanic that replaces the dead guardsmen in a squad with a carbon copy of the now dead. What that does is it makes the guardsman faceless, and replaceable. There is no character in carbon copy schmucks. Furthermore there is no real utility value in that mechanic; it makes the unit more "resilient", but there really isn't a point in targeting them if they are unable to do any significant damage and come back ad-infinitum. This works great for conscripts, and kreigsmen as it gives character to the force. The difference here is distinguishing the characteristics of the force from those of the guardsman.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:


But that being said, I'd like to see some sort of special rule where if a platoon. or squad gets wiped out on the next turn an equal sized squad enters from the players table edge to really emulate the never ending numbers.

That does nothing to alleviate the lack of character. That is a mechanic that replaces the dead guardsmen in a squad with a carbon copy of the now dead. What that does is it makes the guardsman faceless, and replaceable. There is no character in carbon copy schmucks. Furthermore there is no real utility value in that mechanic; it makes the unit more "resilient", but there really isn't a point in targeting them if they are unable to do any significant damage and come back ad-infinitum. This works great for conscripts, and kreigsmen as it gives character to the force. The difference here is distinguishing the characteristics of the force from those of the guardsman.

Okay I'll bite. You must have some idea how to achieve this "re-characterization". How do you think it can be done?

I add character by adding pieces of equipment and posing. For example a few guardsmen may have an inordinate amount of grenades, another few will sling their rifles and be dual wielding trench knives, another few will be swinging swords, their backpacks will have different equipment placements etc. etc. to the point where the guys just holding their rifles are in the minority. Is this what you have in mind or were you thinking of something in the rules?

If there were doctrines like in the old codex, even if they were handled like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, that'd add a lot of character back to the Guard and make each force potentially feel different.

 Brother SRM wrote:
If there were doctrines like in the old codex, even if they were handled like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, that'd add a lot of character back to the Guard and make each force potentially feel different.

I agree- and I've been pretty loud about my frustration with their removal since the 5th edition codex dropped. That's where- in my opinion- the Guard lost their character.

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
A price drop in platoons and make lasguns worth a damn please

Range 24" / Str 3 / Ap - / Salvo 2/3

FRFSRF adds +1 to both salvo values.

Space Marines have tac marines, devastators, assault marines, vanguard vets, stern guard vets, scouts, terminators, and other infantry units.

There is no designated role for infantry units beside what weapon you give them and what save you give them (camo cloaks or carapace).

You can't have a saw gunner suppress an enemy and then have a lighter infantry squad flank the position and take the enemy out with automatic fire.

There are no ambush units that can lay in wait and pounce on an enemy (even then, they probably couldn't do enough damage to warrant their usage).

There is no true option for close combat with the guard. Some guys probably have close combat training or are even experienced and should know how to at least swing a weapon. (look at hive gangers for example)

Where are my airborne troops, shouldn't they be able to move after a deep strike? (yes I know about Elysians)

Storm troopers are over costed guardsmen with ap3 lasguns.

Heavy weapons squads make absolutely no sense if you try to equate how they should work, and how they work with their rules.

Lasguns are unable to do anything. It takes 30 shots for guard to drop 1 decurion necron warrior.

What I want is for there to be different rules and abilities that different squads can use. Right now every guardsman has pretty much the same role and goes about executing it in the same way aside from what special weapons they have.

 Selym wrote:

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
A price drop in platoons and make lasguns worth a damn please

Range 24" / Str 3 / Ap - / Salvo 2/3

FRFSRF adds +1 to both salvo values.

Salvo would be an abysmal rule that would only serve to further crapify the basic Guardsman. Mobility is key nowadays in 40k thanks to Malestrom missions, and Salvo weapons are terrible in their current iteration expect on Relentless platforms.

Instead, just give the Lasgun the ap6 is should ideally have... ALL the background & various novels and such go on at length about lasgun shots tearing through standard flak vests, while 2-3+ direct hits will typically put down those protected by full flak armour.
Add in a special rule that allows Guardsmen to 'Overcharge' their shooting once per game, (representing the ability of the lasgun to burn an entire power pack on just a handful of more powerful shots), that gives the unit ap4.

Regimental Doctrines ala Chapter Tactics would also be amazaballs to see return as well, along with the return of a Feral Regiment unit that comes with pistols/ccw's in place of a basic lasgun, and is limited to 'lower tech' upgrades such as flamers & demo charges.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
There is no designated role for infantry units beside what weapon you give them and what save you give them (camo cloaks or carapace).

You can't have a saw gunner suppress an enemy and then have a lighter infantry squad flank the position and take the enemy out with automatic fire.

There are no ambush units that can lay in wait and pounce on an enemy (even then, they probably couldn't do enough damage to warrant their usage).

To be fair, this is a function of the rules in the game. No army can really do this in any meaningful way so you can't use it against the Guard. Not saying there shouldn't be, but that's not what Warhammer is.

What I want is for there to be different rules and abilities that different squads can use. Right now every guardsman has pretty much the same role and goes about executing it in the same way aside from what special weapons they have.

We have Heavy Weapons Squads, Special Weapons Squads, Conscripts, Guardsmen, Veterans, Scions, etc. We have the tools, just not the right rules to apply them in the sense you are looking for. Which is a shame.

And I play CC Guard, which isn't terribly competitive but none the less is just about as good as regular Guard. WS 3 seems to suggest that Guardsmen do know how to swing a weapon, otherwise they would be WS 2 like Tau. With Guardsmen you just have to find the right force multipliers. Like in my CC army, the use of Commissars (more power weapon attacks), priests (War Hymns), and Ordo Xenos Inquisitors (Rad, Psychtroke Grenades/ Hammerhand) adds a lot of punch to the unit and allows it to function in the manner it is supposed to.

All that said, I still agree with pretty much everything you've said. I want Guard to be THE army to choose if you want to play a faction that will almost never be the same between two players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Instead, just give the Lasgun the ap6 is should ideally have... ALL the background & various novels and such go on at length about lasgun shots tearing through standard flak vests, while 2-3+ direct hits will typically put down those protected by full flak armour.
Add in a special rule that allows Guardsmen to 'Overcharge' their shooting once per game, (representing the ability of the lasgun to burn an entire power pack on just a handful of more powerful shots), that gives the unit ap4.

I don't think AP 6 would do anything in terms of making the average Guardsman better.

Regimental Doctrines ala Chapter Tactics would also be amazaballs to see return as well, along with the return of a Feral Regiment unit that comes with pistols/ccw's in place of a basic lasgun, and is limited to 'lower tech' upgrades such as flamers & demo charges.

I would rather see the return of the Doctrine that allows a Guardsmen to purchase a pistol and CCW to replace their lasgun, than to see them get them for free with more limited access to other things.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Sledgehammer wrote:
There is no designated role for infantry units beside what weapon you give them and what save you give them (camo cloaks or carapace).

You can't have a saw gunner suppress an enemy and then have a lighter infantry squad flank the position and take the enemy out with automatic fire.

There are no ambush units that can lay in wait and pounce on an enemy (even then, they probably couldn't do enough damage to warrant their usage).

To be fair, this is a function of the rules in the game. No army can really do this in any meaningful way so you can't use it against the Guard. Not saying there shouldn't be, but that's not what Warhammer is.

What I want is for there to be different rules and abilities that different squads can use. Right now every guardsman has pretty much the same role and goes about executing it in the same way aside from what special weapons they have.

We have Heavy Weapons Squads, Special Weapons Squads, Conscripts, Guardsmen, Veterans, Scions, etc. We have the tools, just not the right rules to apply them in the sense you are looking for. Which is a shame.

And I play CC Guard, which isn't terribly competitive but none the less is just about as good as regular Guard. WS 3 seems to suggest that Guardsmen do know how to swing a weapon, otherwise they would be WS 2 like Tau. With Guardsmen you just have to find the right force multipliers. Like in my CC army, the use of Commissars (more power weapon attacks), priests (War Hymns), and Ordo Xenos Inquisitors (Rad, Psychtroke Grenades/ Hammerhand) adds a lot of punch to the unit and allows it to function in the manner it is supposed to.

All that said, I still agree with pretty much everything you've said. I want Guard to be THE army to choose if you want to play a faction that will almost never be the same between two players.

Order for imperial guard "suppressing fire" should be changed to something like this. "The squad must make a shooting attack. If an enemy model is killed or wounded, the unit cannot move during its next movement phase. If the player so wishes he or she may choose to move, but will immediatly be shot again by the heavy weapon squad. Furthermore during the next shooting phase the unit suffers -1 to its ballistic skill.

Assault squad. Has assault 3 range 18 lasguns. Have stealth and infiltrate. If within 9 inches of an enemy unit the shots are instead counted as strength 4.

I just made that up on the spot, but that at least somewhat fits my idea.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
If there were doctrines like in the old codex, even if they were handled like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, that'd add a lot of character back to the Guard and make each force potentially feel different.

I agree- and I've been pretty loud about my frustration with their removal since the 5th edition codex dropped. That's where- in my opinion- the Guard lost their character.

Oh please. The Guard doctrines really were not "characterful". They consisted of benefits with no real trade-offs and as fond as I was of the system, it was tedious to continually see the same lists over and over.

How to make a lasgun worth a darn?

That is tough with a D6 system.

I would say for ANY las-type weapon: add that if you roll a 6 to wound, roll another die: on a 6 the shot is rending (1 in 32 chance).

Best I can say is to add as a "lucky shot" by weight of numbers or every once and a while the guns overcharge a shot.

Any other suggestions?

+6" and allow more FRFSRFs to be issued per turn? Maybe buff FRFSRF?

... you do realize that the Guard is *meant* to be largely-faceless carbon copies of each other (a Cadian is a Cadian is a Cadian). Yes, Stormtroopers are a slight (within the confines of the mechanics of the game) upgrade at a more-expensive cost, because they are an elite fighting force of regular human Joes. There's 10,000 soldiers in the Storm Trooper Regiment. In the entire Imperium. Usually, they deploy in squads of, like, 5. Maybe. If it's a truly cataclysmic battle.

The Imperial Guard are Regular Human People who are facing off against Armies of Supermans, Armies of Demon-touched Supermans, Demons Themselves, Aliens that Eat Everything, Aliens that Fight Everything, Aliens Older than History Itself, Aliens who Foretell the Future (and are As Old as History Itself), Women with Better Armor, Better Guns and Better Training than You (and God is Literally On Their Side) and Some Blue-skinned Schmucks with Better Guns Than You.

By the description of the setting, unless the Guard is fighting what amounts to itself, they're supposed to be horribly out-classed in every way except in sheer number of bodies. It's kind of the theme of 40k.

Not to mention balls to the walls firepower. Guard loves their massed Earthshaker batteries which are still powerful guns by the standards of M41.

Also, I feel that APOC better grabs the feel of the Imperial Guard, where you can field entire support companies designed to fight as a unit.

For example, in regular 40k you can bring nine basilisks and it is meh.

In apoc? 9 basilisks and a chimera can fire a 9-shot apocalyptic barrage with ignores cover and pinning.

Maybe give rank fire shred? My problem is usually not with hitting things, usually it's wounding things. MEQ on a 5+ and bikers on a 6+ really hurts.

Or another example is the heavy weapons company, which cannot legally be fielded in regular 40k.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
If there were doctrines like in the old codex, even if they were handled like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, that'd add a lot of character back to the Guard and make each force potentially feel different.

I agree- and I've been pretty loud about my frustration with their removal since the 5th edition codex dropped. That's where- in my opinion- the Guard lost their character.

Oh please. The Guard doctrines really were not "characterful". They consisted of benefits with no real trade-offs and as fond as I was of the system, it was tedious to continually see the same lists over and over.

You and I will never agree on the direction or intention of the faction apparently.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
If there were doctrines like in the old codex, even if they were handled like Space Marine Chapter Tactics, that'd add a lot of character back to the Guard and make each force potentially feel different.

I agree- and I've been pretty loud about my frustration with their removal since the 5th edition codex dropped. That's where- in my opinion- the Guard lost their character.

Oh please. The Guard doctrines really were not "characterful". They consisted of benefits with no real trade-offs and as fond as I was of the system, it was tedious to continually see the same lists over and over.

You and I will never agree on the direction or intention of the faction apparently.

I think we can both agree that it is vastly underpowered right now, and undersupported in terms of the models that have options.

All honesty though, the Doctrines codex is remembered fondly but it seems like Guard players also forget that for every good Doctrine there were two duds--and that the Doctrines force also restricted the types of units you could take to boot!

If we see a "Doctrines" system return, I want it like the Space Marines book where each Regiment is given a set of traits that are specific to them.

Ultimately the scale of the game has run off on itself. With the kinds of things we're seeing become "normal" in the game at this point, it's effectively shifting to the scael Epic used to be played at. We've got entire armies of superheavies, single troops units putting out as much S6 firepower as entire armies used to in 4E or 5E, with basic troops in others roughly matching Terminators for raw resiliency at nearly a third of the cost, and units like TWC's or Wraiths that can require hundreds of guardsmen concentrating fire for multiple turns to kill.

The way the armies function at this point, a unit like Guardsmen fundamentally has very little value beyond mere board presence. Lasguns in many instances are a rather pointless weapon and require an absurd amount of effort to get value out of in many instances (well, if we've got 50 guys, a vox and Ld support, with an officer nearby, and a psyker giving a Blessing, and the enemy is in double-tap range but hasn't made it into assault...then we can make them hurt...)

If people want to keep things like Necron Wraiths, TWC's, Knights, etc the way they are now, Guardsmen need to be re-worked. They're simply so weeny as to be pointless to track as individual models. Having to worry about if a sergeant is armed with a sword or a mace, or which individual lasguns are in double-tap range or not, gets to be extremely absurd when there's dozens or hundreds of them and they're not really hurting much of anything either way. Worrying about which guardsmen is closer and who get cover for wound allocation, when fighting a Knight army of 5 models, is rather asinine. That level of granularity when the scale has shifted up that far is simply odious. They need to be treated basically as a single entities with further abstracted rules and firepower, like a big single multi-wound model.

As a quick mental exercise example, a basic squad can be something like T3, Eternal Warrior, W10, flamers & large blasts automatically hit D3+2 & small blasts automatically hit D3 models instead of having to work out individual hits, measure range & LoS from anywhere (both to and from) and instead of keeping track of 20 lasguns, simply give it a static number of shots with strength dependent on unit size (e.g. 6 shots @ S5 with 7-10 wounds, S4 with 4-6 wounds, and S3 when 3 wounds or less), do likewise for CC attacks, and you could still add the provision for heavy/special weapons in the same way MC's can use theirs and just assume they're there until the unit is killed. This makes record keeping and tracking individual models less necessary, gives the unit a bit more staying power/teeth, and a bit more functionality in general.

 Psienesis wrote:
.Yes, Stormtroopers are a slight (within the confines of the mechanics of the game) upgrade at a more-expensive cost, because they are an elite fighting force of regular human Joes. There's 10,000 soldiers in the Storm Trooper Regiment. In the entire Imperium. Usually, they deploy in squads of, like, 5. Maybe. If it's a truly cataclysmic battle.

Not 10k anymore, the Scion codex did away with that limitation.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
.Yes, Stormtroopers are a slight (within the confines of the mechanics of the game) upgrade at a more-expensive cost, because they are an elite fighting force of regular human Joes. There's 10,000 soldiers in the Storm Trooper Regiment. In the entire Imperium. Usually, they deploy in squads of, like, 5. Maybe. If it's a truly cataclysmic battle.

Not 10k anymore, the Scion codex did away with that limitation.

I don't think that number had even been used since 2E, I certainly don't recall it in any post 2E books. That number also came about when the "titanic" wars of galactic importance on Armageddon had fewer deployed troops than fought on the Eastern Front in WW2.

10k is laughably low. 1 million Marines is too few to be significant, and 10,000 sub-Marines (see what I did there) would be pointless.
I've never seen any reference to a hard cap on stormtroopers, and I've been following the IG since 4E fluff.

The last codex had so much substance and variety. The loss of so much arty and characters makes Guard seem a bit dull.

eg: Penal legionaries were a great fluffy concept, even if the points were out a bit. They could be reborn into half decent CC units - condemned fearless dirty crims who are good with knives.

Experiment 626 wrote:
]Instead, just give the Lasgun the ap6 is should ideally have... ALL the background & various novels and such go on at length about lasgun shots tearing through standard flak vests, while 2-3+ direct hits will typically put down those protected by full flak armour.

That would be AP 5....

I dunno, giving lasguns ap6 could work. But it would seriously upset/penalise Ork players.

Lowering point costs for Guardsmen can help a bit, but mayor problem is the Lasgun itself. Leave Guardsmen's Sv 5+ aside, its ok, but damage output is low.

Give the lasgun more shots (not salvo, keep Rapid Fire but it fires one more shot in default, FRFSRF adding another one) to 2/3 without and 3/4 with FRFSRF.
And some kind of "Massed Fire" rule which grants Shred on sixes to hit.