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Say I wanting a model not on the market. How do I do it?

I go to a designer to put my ideas on to paper.
Then to a sculptor to turn the image into a model.
Go to a caster and get a quote.
Done?

Obviously quantities matter I assume. What companies even create molds for this sort of thing?

Oof. I've never heard of commissioning someone to produce your own model. I've no idea how expensive it would be, but......probably a lot, if you're planning to hire someone to design, sculpt, and cast them.

Do you have any idea what size or type a model you're looking for? Infantryman, monster, tank, dragon, big, small, etc?

I mean, I've done a good bit of kitbashing, and done quite a bit of my own mold casting, but I wouldn't even know where to start if you wanted to commission a professionally-designed and sculpted model.

Depending on what size and quality you're wanting, you can do your own casting work with a $70 USD alumilite resin casting kit and have good results.

If it's just a one off, you can skip the casting element and just use the master. It's very much a thing, many of the best sculptors work freelance, but if I remember correctly a single 30mm infantry figure could run you four figures in sterling.

Im actually working on a project you see and if it succeeds (if being the big thing) then I will need the few models to be many models.

Hence why I want to know a bit about the process so I don't dump heaps of money onto a mold I will never use or something.

I once chipped in with Grimstonefire over on the Chaos Dwarf Online forum to fund a mold, to have some bits and even whole figures that he sculpted cast, as we were both wanting to run things like blunderbuss infantry and GW didn't make those weapons for their current chaos dwarfs. It was a cool experience, but it is pricey unless you are wanting a whole lot of the models, and it helps to be able to sell some to balance the cost (Grimstonefire was able to do this, I believe).

I think the main areas you'd need to look into are who to do the sculpting (likely traditional sculpting, but with the added wrinkle of 3d printing a master if digital, and needing to make sure the detail is deep enough to look good once printed) and then who to do the casting, and the cost of each. You could probably pick the brains of some of the small minis companies on Dakka, a lot of them are willing to share tips and tricks

I know Bob Olley's website goes over his rates and info about the commissions he takes. Might be worth a look:

http://www.olleysarmies.co.uk/freelance.html

Garden Ninja also does custom sculpting.

http://www.gardenninja.com/commissions/general-commissions/

The bottom of that page gives some information and links to greens he has sculpted.

Azreal13 wrote:but if I remember correctly a single 30mm infantry figure could run you four figures in sterling.

Blimey! I thought £300 would be an outlier. The big names might charge more, depending on size, complexity, and if they're really not that bothered, but four figures...

These I charged about £120-150 for. I would've charged more but they were private commissions for a few guys scraping some hobby bucks together, I wanted to see them done too, and I'm certainly no big name.

Oh, and most sculptors should take care of the design too, but it pays to check.

RiTides wrote:I think the main areas you'd need to look into are who to do the sculpting (likely traditional sculpting, but with the added wrinkle of 3d printing a master if digital, and needing to make sure the detail is deep enough to look good once printed) and then who to do the casting, and the cost of each.

Yup. Not a side of the business I've had much contact with yet, but for casting a production run of minis you'll need a master mould (and if a vulcanised spincast mould, possibly enough sculpts to fill it. 9-16 IIRC) and a production mould. I'd have to go hunting to find the numbers I was told, a while ago.

Cheers guys,

I will read these links. Any info or tips is appreciated.

Hmmm, I know that Sandra Garrity charged $450 for a single figure, back in 2003 - double that if you also bought the rights to make copies and sell them.

I don't know how much it would be now.

The Auld Grump

Is it more economical to do large orders over single models?

Probably a better question for me to ask the companies I guess.

I would recommend a good friend of mine here : https://www.facebook.com/ArtisanGuildMiniatures?fref=ts&ref=br_tf , they do great digital sculpts, you would however have to find a digital printer their are a few good ones around in north America, I find the ones in Europe to be far too expensive personally. He is very affordable and their are many great advantages too having your work done digitally.

For concept art I can recommend none better than Edward : http://edwarddelandreart.deviantart.com/ very affordable for a colored or black and white painting to a simple sketch, fantastic to work with and very adaptable from creature concepts , humans, too anything eldritch or else wise!.

However if you wanted to go with a more traditional medium for your sculpting I can recommend : http://monster-zer0.blogspot.ca/ , very well known as well but you will be paying much more for such a quality sculpt in this medium.

Molding will be your next step once everything is done ( and this is something I recommend looking into before getting the sculpt started) find a caster , since your in Australia I would recommend getting into contact with http://victoriaminiatures.highwire.com/ , and I am sure she could set you up with her caster or help you out with everything you would need. Work with your caster , show them updates of your sculpt so that they can give you ideas what will need to be casted separate of the miniature and what adjustments will be needed to be made with the sculpt.

hope that helps some feel free to drop me a pm if you wish to ask more and good luck!. may we also ask what type of miniature concept you have in mind?

Cheers for that mate.

I am sending out emails etc now to get info. That was a huge amount of help.

If you must ask I am making my own Fantasy Naval Miniature Game but it's 28mm scale.

 Vermis wrote:

Azreal13 wrote:but if I remember correctly a single 30mm infantry figure could run you four figures in sterling.

Blimey! I thought £300 would be an outlier. The big names might charge more, depending on size, complexity, and if they're really not that bothered, but four figures...

These I charged about £120-150 for. I would've charged more but they were private commissions for a few guys scraping some hobby bucks together, I wanted to see them done too, and I'm certainly no big name.

Oh, and most sculptors should take care of the design too, but it pays to check.

There's a difference between a one off model and selling the production rights. A sculptor may charge a few hundred to create it, but to create it and sign away the possibility of any future income commands a premium.

Found this,

http://www.gatekeepergaming.com/article-6-how-to-get-minis-made/

Just reading it now, seems to echo what you guys are saying.

It really depends on what material you want the model to be, how big and who you are having doing the modeling. It depends on how complicated as well.

You will probably need concept art for the sculpture to work with. There are some sculptures who can work without art, just using reference photos for ideas, however it is better to have concept art. You usually want a front/back art at the very least to provide the sculptor with the best information to get it done. Artwork can run anywhere from $40-500 depending on color, black and white, cleaned up, digital, etc.

Once you have artwork then you'll want to determine how you want the original or master created. You can choose classic sculpting with green/gray/brown stuff or 3d modeling. There are pro's and cons to each method.

Classic sculpting of a 32mm miniature can be anywhere from $50-300 depending on who you are working with. The advantage of classic sculpting is you usually do not need a 3d master and can just use the master that was sculpted to start with.

3D sculpting can run anywhere from $100-$1000 depending again who you are working with. With 3d done you'll need a master printed to use for casting. 3d printing depending on the quality, type of printer and how much clean up work you want to do can be $100-$300.

Now that you have the master you just need it casted. Does the model need to be broken up to be cast better or can you do it as one piece, all depends on the model. With digital and 3D printing it is easier to do the cuts and modifications as needed. With traditional sculpting there may need additional work done.

You can do metal miniatures or resin miniatures for casting. It will really depend on your country and who you are having to do the casting. It could run as inexpensive as $0.50 a miniature to as much as $3 and that may or may not include metal/resin/mold as part of that. It really depends on who you are dealing with.

Keep in mind these are real rough estimates without any knowledge of what you are wanting done so total costs can vary give or take a few hundred dollars. I've had great work done for everything for $500 and as well had the same done for $1000 for one miniature.

Honestly if you haven't secured rights to a project or even if you are pitching a project, you shouldn't invest in creating a prototype. If you are pitching a game/idea to a company, most times they aren't going to use your artwork/prototype anyways and will develop their own. If you are trying to achieve a license, prototyping can help but can be a waste if they already have something in the works. Often game designers make the mistake of spending money on artwork and other things to pitch their game to a game publisher, only to find out you don't need that as they typically will provide their own.

Awesome Thanks Dark, really handy.

On 3D sculpting, not all 3D sculptors are the same as well. If you are having it 3D sculpted you can work with someone who may not have the experience but could be cheaper. In my experience it is better to go with someone experienced as they have already dealt with 3D printing and may have experience with casting or at least knowing how to properly design/cut the model up with that in mind. That doesn't mean that you have to go to the most expensive one either but just something to bear in mind. Higher price doesn't necessarily mean they are better, they just could be in more demand at that time vs someone who may not be.

I think I will go with 3d sculpting to be honest. Being the first time I have tried anything like this it seems 3d is user friendly when it comes to making tweaks.

I don't know if the final results hugely differ between digital and sculpted (I know some differences but if the artist is good then the differences between them seem to shrink) but I think it's the way to go.

There is also Hero Forge. It's more of a mix and match template system, but might work for what you want.

https://www.heroforge.com/

There's always Brother Vinni, he does single-mini commissions on the cheaper side of things.

And there's this guy, who has a nice portfolio in the OP: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/665532.page

Try Prodos:

http://shop.prodosgames.com/en/53-3d-design
http://prodosgames.com/

The Prodos 3D Solutions offering centres on highest detail 3D printing of your item. We use the best printers for the job and have gone through a long validation process to ensure the materials we use are the best with regards to ease of use and detail possible. Our own models are true-scale 32mm, but we are able to produce anything from 5 to 250mm. The printed masters are then carefully prepared. Prodos Games is a model making company through and through, we know how to create the perfect miniature. Prodos 3D Solutions offers you the same service, 100%.

Lots of people on Dakka know them from their kickstarters, so chat with some of them about the company beforehand if you want.
If needed, I'm local to them, but have not dealt with them myself.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Say I wanting a model not on the market. How do I do it?

I go to a designer to put my ideas on to paper.
Then to a sculptor to turn the image into a model.
Go to a caster and get a quote.
Done?

Obviously quantities matter I assume. What companies even create molds for this sort of thing?

The good news: There's PLENTY of resources out there.

It sounds like you need to hire artists. That means locating artists, briefing them, and potentially working closely with them. Working with an artist is a special experience. It can be anywhere from pleasant to horrifyingly frustrating.

Most freelancers have been burned in the past, so keep that in mind. If you hire an artist and get a piece of work, pay. ALWAYS pay the artist unless you literally do not get a completed product. Even then you might want to pay the artist anyway. Your hire, your responsibility.

A freelance artist will be worrying about whether you are going to like what he/she is making. If you want good work, you've got to make the artist's job easy. Start by hiring someone whose portfolio of work is already close to what you are looking for. Make sure to give the artist plenty material to work with. You don't want to be overly restrictive because you are hiring an artist to be creative. You need to give the artist some breathing room.

Don't be shy about asking for revisions, but again, you've got to give the artist plenty of room. It is a bad idea to go to an artist with a specific image in your mind and expect the artist to produce exactly that. It won't happen. The artist can't see into your brain, and again, you are paying for an artist's creativity as well as skill and experience. Allow yourself room to be surprised and don't sweat the small stuff.

One of the concept artists we work with always takes strange liberties with footwear. I leave it alone and correct it on the sculpting side. I provide plenty of reference material, but I have learned that when it comes to shoes, he will deviate from the brief. I don't know why but it doesn't matter because his work is otherwise excellent.

Bottom line, you need to give the artist firm boundaries that are not overly restrictive. Give LOTS of reference images and keep an open mind.

Most sculptors do well with concept art, so you may need a concept artist and a sculptor.

Concept art will run you anywhere from $100-$500+ depending on what you want and who you are working with.

Art students work cheap, but you are taking a risk working with someone who does not have much professional experience. Try Conceptart.org, Deviant Art, etc. to find artists. You can also simply contact companies with concept art that you like and ask for the name of the artists.

Sculpting will run you anywhere from $200-$1500 for a human-sized 28mm-35mm model. Top sculptors like Patrick Mason and Sebastian Archer will cost you around $1000 per sculpt.

Your biggest limiting factor on sculpting is availability. If you are only looking for one or two sculpts, most sculptors can likely fit you in, but you may have to wait a while.

Talented sculptors make more money in the video gaming and toy industries. Folks sculpting table top gaming miniatures are often doing it because they like to do it. Because of the size of the industry, the market won't bear much more than about 1K for a table top gaming sculpt, so you are in a tough spot when negotiating rates with talented sculptors with skill and experience.

Be wary of a sculptor that charges $200 or less. Part of what you are paying for is someone who knows how to make a manufacturable product. You need someone who can not only sculpt, but also knows table top miniatures. They need to know when and how to part a model. They need to know how to sculpt for the material you will be casting in. They need to know how to sculpt for the mold-making process you are using. They need to know how to make a model that will stand up on the table, be paintable, etc.

If you hire a digital sculptor, you will also need to 3D print the miniature. That will probably cost at least $100.

An easy way to find a sculptor is to look for the models you like and find out who sculpted them. If the artist isn't listed, contact the manufacturer and ask.

Contract mold-making and casting services are harder to track down. But there are lots of them. Most companies that manufacture their own miniatures will also do contract work.

Resin casting has a lot of cost in the molds and it is fairly labor intensive, leading to a higher price per cast. Spin cast metal is basically a one-time setup cost because the mold will be good for 1000 spins or so.

You've got to get the original mastered and then have production molds made, regardless of what material you are casting in. So there's going to be a setup cost.

For spincast pewter, you are looking at $75-$100 for a mold, so somewhere around $200 to set up production, possibly more if you get charged for cleaning the masters.

In terms of unit costs, that is highly variable depending on the nature of the sculpt.

Valiant is very good when it comes to manufacturing table top gaming miniatures in either resin or metal.

Zombiesmith Studios does 3D printing, mold-making, and spin casting.

Prodos Games offers an end-to-end solution if you are casting in resin. They have digital sculptors, they do 3D printing, and they do production casting. Prodos has been in pretty high demand lately.

Knuckleduster Miniatures does really nice 3D printing, and Forrest also does mold-making and spin casting.

Griffin Moulds is very good when it comes to mold-making and spin casting.

All told, you aren't going to produce a miniature with less than about $500 in up-front costs, unless you are doing your own artwork. More likely it will cost you closer $1000, probably more if you splurge on a sculptor.

Yea the project is going to be over 15k start up based on average costs, however this is before getting quotes and then revising my budget at least 5 times to ensure I have not missed anything.

Thanks for the info.

I think I have it nailed down after reading around and reading responses here. Hopefully this time next year I have something to show off...

 Swastakowey wrote:
Yea the project is going to be over 15k start up based on average costs, however this is before getting quotes and then revising my budget at least 5 times to ensure I have not missed anything.

Thanks for the info.

I think I have it nailed down after reading around and reading responses here. Hopefully this time next year I have something to show off...

Coming soon, to a Kickstarter near you?

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Yea the project is going to be over 15k start up based on average costs, however this is before getting quotes and then revising my budget at least 5 times to ensure I have not missed anything.

Thanks for the info.

I think I have it nailed down after reading around and reading responses here. Hopefully this time next year I have something to show off...

Coming soon, to a Kickstarter near you?

The Auld Grump

Hopefully. Got to do a lot of work first. We are still drafting the rules and currently fleshing out the world, which is a mission in itself.

Plenty of good advise so far,

but I'll reiterate one bit

getting a lovely looking 3D file does not mean that it will be printable (or printable on the printer you want to use to print it),

and even if it does print does not mean that it will end up looking decent

(the digital sculptor does really need to know how to exaggerate detail/depth for miniatures, a lot of people offering to sculpt will be coming from courses intended for video games/cgi work which looks good on screen but will not work for minis without a lot of hassle)

so if you choose 3D printing find somebody who has had minis made from their work before

Sizes are also seem to be an issue of 3D sculpts with things coming out bigger/smaller than expected, it's worth paying for a cheap low resolution print when the first sculpt done to make sure the size is right before committing to a high resolution, slow, expensive one that you intend to make a mould from as if you find the result needs tweeking it won't break the bank

Edit: Also well worth checking if the sculptor intend to choose has a 'reputation' for working in a timely fashion or only producing stuff when the mood (or their main career) suits them or otherwise being difficult.
It can be a real issue if you end up with a sculptor who just won't deliver and you have a timeline you need to meet

(on the other hand some fabulous sculptors are troublesome/have artistic temprements/work only in their limited spare time so if you have no real time pressure it's still well worth working with them)

Yes, a Friend of mine prints 3D terrain and accessories (and rock monsters etc). We have a whole 3D printed castle etc.

One thing I learned is that the model needs to be made by someone who is part of the hobby. Heaps of people can make 3d designs but one specifically for models is pretty different.

But yes I wrote in bold letters "get less decent test done first on 3d print... just in case".

Cheers

 Azreal13 wrote:
There's a difference between a one off model and selling the production rights. A sculptor may charge a few hundred to create it, but to create it and sign away the possibility of any future income commands a premium.

I can imagine prices (or at least asking prices) have risen in the last couple of years without me noticing, with newer phenomena like Kickstarters hyped up to the eyeballs, and the ability to print digital sculpts bringing in hobby outsiders who can whip voxels up into exquisite, uncastable shapes. (and I've heard Tom Meier before now, talking about how much more he gets for toy sculpts) I don't know if I'd have much problem with that. This hobby has a history of woeful underpayment for professionals.

But with that in mind, if your experiences with sculpting commissions bump the cost from around a couple of hundred to over a grand because of 'production rights', I'd say it goes a bit from 'more crumbs for the starving artist' towards 'taking the piss'.

 Vermis wrote:

But with that in mind, if your experiences with sculpting commissions bump the cost from around a couple of hundred to over a grand because of 'production rights', I'd say it goes a bit from 'more crumbs for the starving artist' towards 'taking the piss'.

A case of a few hundred for the initial commission and over a thousand (and more) for production rights is more a about the initial part being too cheap and not the second part being too expensive. As sculptors are more in demand they will increase their rates. Why should a sculptor be a charity for a miniature company? Shouldn't they have the right to try to make as much money as possible like anybody else interacting in a capitalistic system?

If a company thinks a sculpt (and al the rights they need) are not worth the price a sculptor is asking then they can go and try to find somebody else. In the end it's the old project management triangle (fast, good, cheap; pick two). A sculptor's fees are not made in a vacuum. If I remember correctly 15 years ago they were already near $1000 (for freelance sculptors) for a 28/30 mm miniature (including production rights).