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Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

Thread title is pretty self-explanatory.

Having built German, British, Russian and American forces over the years, and played with them and against them, I've recently had the idea of collecting a force from on of the 'minor' nations: Finland/Hungary/Romania/Italy

Having never played against them, I've no idea what they are like. Yeah, I've read their lists/rules etc in the Eastern Front/Afrika books, but I'm curious to hear from over people what they're like to game with, assuming anybody on dakka actually collects them!

I quite like the idea of having an Italian force for Eastern Front games against the Russkies ( for the tactical challenge) or maybe even a mechanised Hungarian force for running Panzer IVs.

Thanks for any replies.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





I'm curious about this as well. I've looked into the game but would want to play Italians or Polish.



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Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm curious about this as well. I've looked into the game but would want to play Italians or Polish.


I had completely forgotten about the Poles and the armoured train option...

Never came up against an armoured train, either! Any good?

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

I have an army of poles for early war. They fight pretty well. Honestly aside from flavor they don't seem to be overly different to playing anything else. They do however have huge platoons...

   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Swastakowey wrote:
I have an army of poles for early war. They fight pretty well. Honestly aside from flavor they don't seem to be overly different to playing anything else. They do however have huge platoons...



What are the Polish national rules like?

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Well I don't really use them... But they have (from memory) bypass which allows some units to appear behind the enemy as reserves.

The other is special rules for their cavalry (which I don't use as much as I want a cavalry army).

The ability to fight at night is about the only one I use.

These are the rules from Blitzkrieg.
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block




Finland are great nation, great infantry and heroes, they are one of the toughest infantry platoon to dug out. Hungary and Romania can have some great spam platoon
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Yea I hate fighting Finland, they usually take a heavy toll on my Japs.
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Swastakowey wrote:
Yea I hate fighting Finland, they usually take a heavy toll on my Japs.


Am I the only one who cares about 'realistic' encounters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
bobjoerock wrote:
Finland are great nation, great infantry and heroes, they are one of the toughest infantry platoon to dug out. Hungary and Romania can have some great spam platoon


As good as they sound, I'll probably skip Finland, because if I want an army of dug-in infantry, I've got my Red Devils for that

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/04 21:16:04


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

When you play early war and there are 3 players who all collected armies before we met you have to make do with whats available... It's not ideal.

If you want something truly different I suggest A cavalry army.
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 Swastakowey wrote:
When you play early war and there are 3 players who all collected armies before we met you have to make do with whats available... It's not ideal.

If you want something truly different I suggest A cavalry army.


Not a bad idea, but it's getting your hands on cavalry units for a decent price, that's always put me off.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Its the same thing thats put me off.

I like the Japanese Cavalry because they can dismount etc (more versatile) but the price per base a bit high.

If you can find an affordable way of getting them cav look like a lot of fun to play and it's certainly different.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

I'm in the middle of cobbling together an EW Italian Carri Compagnie. From what I can tell, my worst enemy is going to be the EW 8 Million Bayonets table.

Elite:
1-2: Reluctant Trained
3-4: Confident Trained
5: Fearless Conscript
6: Fearless Trained

Compare that to the MW Elite one:
1-2: CT
3-5: CV
6: FV

Half the rolls on the EW table spell disaster. I'd much rather it have been:
1: RT
2-4: CT
5: RV
6: CV

None of my platoons are big enough to afford to be Conscript, and they're barely capable of being Reluctant Trained. Rolling a 5 for any of my Carri platoons pretty much means they're a free platoon kill; 2pdrs against 4-5 3/2/1 Conscript Slow Tanks? Don't mind if I do!

The EW Artillery table is better, CT/FT/CV, but it means the only things I can rely on to actually be halfway decent are my 100/17s.

Part of me wishes I'd looked up whether EW had a different 8MB table before ordering a horde of tanks...

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

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Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

I play Slovaks in Early War. Confident Trained with nice big platoons with the option for combat attacked HMGs.

I'm still trying to pin down what their bikes looked like so I can make a platoon of them.

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Loyal Necron Lychguard






South Dakota

The thing that I like about the Finnish (other than my wife being one) is that their army choices are just about the same throughout all three eras of the war. Just the types of Soviet and German armor that they have available changes.

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Fresh-Faced New User




I have Italian tanks but I have never played with them. It is nice that they are the same tank for both early and mid war, and I understand that they can be competitive.

In late war Hungarian lists based around the Zrinyi assault gun are apparently quite good, lots of cheap breakthrough guns to dig out infantry backed by German made tanks.
   
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Executing Exarch




sultansean wrote:
I have Italian tanks but I have never played with them. It is nice that they are the same tank for both early and mid war, and I understand that they can be competitive.


The tanks might be competitive against armies from the early part of Mid-War. But the later tanks completely outclass them.

Early War is another matter, though. I played a game using my French DLM list against an Italian list. It was my opponent's first time playing Early War, and he was excited about the fact that his tanks were actually useful, for once.
   
Made in gb
1st Lieutenant







Finns are great in my opinion as you can use a lot of the same models from 1939 right through to 1945, I magnatised all my AT guns and arty to maximise this. The army is tough, and the tank lists is good in EW fun in LW
Hungarians are good too, both in EW and MW and their assault gun list is lethal in LW
Romanians are an absolute hoard army with lots of toys in any era
French in EW are awesome

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Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

I'll probably opt for an Italian list, simply so I can use them in North Africa and Eastern Front games, but after visiting the PSC website, it's not going to be cheap, due to the lack of Italian plastic boxed sets.

Still tempted by the armoured train option though with the Poles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Reaver83 wrote:
Finns are great in my opinion as you can use a lot of the same models from 1939 right through to 1945, I magnatised all my AT guns and arty to maximise this. The army is tough, and the tank lists is good in EW fun in LW
Hungarians are good too, both in EW and MW and their assault gun list is lethal in LW
Romanians are an absolute hoard army with lots of toys in any era
French in EW are awesome


I had forgotten about the French...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Avatar 720 wrote:
I'm in the middle of cobbling together an EW Italian Carri Compagnie. From what I can tell, my worst enemy is going to be the EW 8 Million Bayonets table.

Elite:
1-2: Reluctant Trained
3-4: Confident Trained
5: Fearless Conscript
6: Fearless Trained

Compare that to the MW Elite one:
1-2: CT
3-5: CV
6: FV

Half the rolls on the EW table spell disaster. I'd much rather it have been:
1: RT
2-4: CT
5: RV
6: CV

None of my platoons are big enough to afford to be Conscript, and they're barely capable of being Reluctant Trained. Rolling a 5 for any of my Carri platoons pretty much means they're a free platoon kill; 2pdrs against 4-5 3/2/1 Conscript Slow Tanks? Don't mind if I do!

The EW Artillery table is better, CT/FT/CV, but it means the only things I can rely on to actually be halfway decent are my 100/17s.

Part of me wishes I'd looked up whether EW had a different 8MB table before ordering a horde of tanks...


You're doing it for the challenge - never forget

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/05 10:30:08


"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

 Avatar 720 wrote:
None of my platoons are big enough to afford to be Conscript, and they're barely capable of being Reluctant Trained. Rolling a 5 for any of my Carri platoons pretty much means they're a free platoon kill; 2pdrs against 4-5 3/2/1 Conscript Slow Tanks? Don't mind if I do!

That's not a mile away from the typical profile for tanks in early war. 2pdrs are probably the best AT gun of their type in early war.

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Regular Dakkanaut




EW the minors seem to all be very competitive

MW most are still competitive but there are better lists in the main nations for the most part.

LW Main nations are by far superior- BF did an extremely poor balance job point wise for the minors IMO aside from maybe Finns, and thats mainly because they are fortified sit and wait FV with heavy Artillery.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Having built German, British, Russian and American forces over the years, and played with them and against them, I've recently had the idea of collecting a force from on of the 'minor' nations: Finland/Hungary/Romania/Italy

Lets see, I've never actually played as any of these nationalities, but over the years these are the impressins I have picked up.

Finaland - A pretty tough infantry force. More limited in terms of armor than the main combatants but most people who play them seem to like them.

Hungary - I know less about these guys and always thought they were more interesting fluff-wise than for any advantage the list offered. In a lot of ways I'd call them a subset of the Germans.

Romania - Sorry, I know nothing about these guys.

Italy - I've got a bit of first hand experience with these fellows. They are stictly an Early War and Mid War force. Except for their Bersaglieri and maybe their Paratroopers, they are generally low quality troops with low quality equipment. You need to take advantage of your numerical advantage and play them smart or you'll just get shot to pieces. I think(?) the Eastern Front list is more restricted thant he North African list, but I don't have my books in front of me.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I'm curious about this as well. I've looked into the game but would want to play Italians or Polish.

I don't know much about EW Polish, but I know they have some good Late War lists using Allied equipment in the Normandy campaign.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/05 16:45:35


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

 George Spiggott wrote:
 Avatar 720 wrote:
None of my platoons are big enough to afford to be Conscript, and they're barely capable of being Reluctant Trained. Rolling a 5 for any of my Carri platoons pretty much means they're a free platoon kill; 2pdrs against 4-5 3/2/1 Conscript Slow Tanks? Don't mind if I do!

That's not a mile away from the typical profile for tanks in early war. 2pdrs are probably the best AT gun of their type in early war.


The Tank profile itself isn't, no, but when 1/3 of the time you can be bail-locked trying to remount on 5+, and another 1/6 you can be hit on 2+ by 3-4 largely RoF 3 AT guns--of which the 2pdr was simply a random Allied example--the tank values themselves start to factor in a little less. When you're getting EW-standard Motivation/Skill only 1/3 of the time, slightly better than standard 1/6 of the time, and worse than standard 1/2 the time, but you're still paying for decent armour and a decent gun, you start to feel a bit miffed. Hotchkiss platoons get worse main guns and fewer MGs, but are 3/3/1 Standard Tanks, aren't Unreliable, are all CT, but cost 75pts less. Hell, British Captured Armour platoons field M13/40s at solid CT for only 5pts more with 3 tanks, and 10pts more with 4. You can almost field a better Italian armour list using Brits than you can using Italians themselves! At only 10pts more total for 4 tanks, I lose Avanti!--give up shooting the gun you paid for to try and move as if you'd been a Standard Tank that turn, and LFTF changed it from Skill to Motivation check, so is almost useless 1/3 of the time now as opposed to 1/6--and Heroism--almost useless 1/3 of the time anyway, which would ironically be when it's most needed--but I ignore 5/6 of the rolls on the 8MB table, and I'm not sure that'd be as bad of a trade off as it might seem.

Besides, I haven't said that Italians are useless, only that their EW 8MB table is their worst enemy, as opposed to certain enemy nations or lists. With good 8MB rolls, a Carri would be a good, capable force; unfortunately the opposite is also true, and bad rolls even just on one or two of your combat platoons could all but lose a game before it's started, especially since you roll 8MB after deployment--and therefore after you've already more or less committed your forces. No shoving Conscripts in Reserve, or hiding Reluctant platoons/relegating them to guard duty. Usually the phrase is "no plan survives contact with the enemy", but with EW Italians, it's "no plan survives contact with the 8MB table". Unless you know that you can pull a plan off regardless of motivation/skill ratings, you can't afford to really even have a plan until you roll on the table, especially when 1/2 of it is so poor--especially for what are supposed to be "Elite" troops.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/05 19:48:53


Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

I play Soviet armour with T-35s (3/3/2 Confident Conscript) and BT-7s (1/1/1 Confident Conscript). You have to treat those light AT guns with the respect that you would Pak 40s or similar in late war and give them a wide berth with armour. At least their range is usually only 24".

Armour doesn't have the same role in early war as it does in late war. With conscript infantry you have my sympathies. the best bet is to dig in and hope nobody notices you. They're universally terrible at almost everything, Infantry rely on their skill tests much more than armour does IMO.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

The issue with giving AT guns a berth is that they can be so prolific, and the fact that arty serves more of a dual role in EW than either MW or LW often means that an opponent can have at least one platoon capable of providing good AT covering most areas. Trying to strike at an objective without drawing AT fire will usually rely on your opponent not having deployed any near it, and nothing in ambush. I can't think of many lists I could reliably be attacking that won't have at least two AT platoons and some artillery, or three AT platoons.

That said, AT guns aren't the real issue. If I wasn't Conscript, I wouldn't be hit as easily. I'm more heavily armoured than BT-7s, but BTs are faster, have a better gun, more prolific, and cheaper. I'm a little less armoured than a T-35, rather cheaper, and more numerous, but T-35s are Land Battleships with better armaments.

It feels as though the M13 sits at a mid-point where it wants to be a jack of all trades, but half the time will be useless at a lot of them. It has armour, but not too much; it has a good gun, but not the best; it can Avanti! to offset being Slow, but needs to roll Motivation. All these are balancing factors that make it a good tank... when CT. At FC it hasn't the numbers of BTs or the rules and guns of T-35s. At RT it hasn't the motivation to be able to Avanti! or Heroism or reliably remount if bailed. At CT, it's a very good balance of 'pro' and 'con', and at FT, it's even better, but for a tank that's costed as if it's normally going to be CT, but will actually be worse than CT half the time, it doesn't feel great.

Maybe I'm just too used to playing my Germans in EW, where life is pretty damn good, or planning my Escadron de Recce with its nimble and deadly Panhards, cheap and cheerful Hotchkisses, and "What do you mean RoF 3 AT 9 FP 4+? Hold on, five of them?!" W15 TCCs.

Part of me just feels a little cheated by how an 'Elite' unit is so often going to be worse than other nations' regulars, and how we don't even get to know what part of our army is going to be what until after we've committed everything to the table; even Reserves don't roll for 8MB until they come on.

I don't want the MW table, with its lashings of CV, but I'd prefer a table that was less focussed on Elites being Conscript or Reluctant. Even just replacing the FC option with a third CT would do well enough in my opinion--Conscripts have no real place in an 'Elite' army. At least you can justify some 'Elite' troops being somewhat Reluctant to be joining/re-joining the military.

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




EW Italians are awesome......placed top at nationals several years back, as well as had at least 1-2 other top 10 finishers with EW Italian lists.

They are cheap point wise have a decent tank for EW so you can get all the bells and whistles- 2x tank plts, artillery, air, and a good amount of infantry in your army list. A very solid EW Army if played right. Most competitive Italian players in EW went Infantry last time I went to events.
   
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Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

 Avatar 720 wrote:
That said, AT guns aren't the real issue. If I wasn't Conscript, I wouldn't be hit as easily. I'm more heavily armoured than BT-7s, but BTs are faster, have a better gun, more prolific, and cheaper. I'm a little less armoured than a T-35, rather cheaper, and more numerous, but T-35s are Land Battleships with better armaments.


When you say better armament I suspect you're forgetting the -1 to hit whenever I move (which stacks with the multi turret -1 on the T-35). i find the hardest part of conscript rating is that you have to avoid terrain as being bogged (5+ to remount with no possible re-rolls) is crippling. Also T-35s are bogged more than they are bailed due to Land Battleship.

My other army (Slovaks) has 38(t)s which are 2/1/1 Confident Trained (with option for 35(t)s). Tanks just don't have the same role in early war. I also play Spanish Civil War where the best tank you can get is armour 1/1/1 facing much the same quality (not always quanity) of AT as in Early War.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

I'm not, no--I play a LW Tankovy, forgetting H&C isn't allowed--that would be claiming that they're better at shooting. I was just saying they have better guns, which is true. The upside that Soviets have here is that you know your platoons are all Conscript from the word go. You pay CC prices for CC tanks and can come up with a battle plan your CC tanks can carry out.

I don't know any of my platoons' Motivations/Skills until they're committed to the table, so either I deploy and hope for the best, or I deploy in a way where I can quickly re-organise and try not to give my opponent a free turn to prepare. Committing a platoon to a flank of boggy terrain and rolling it up Conscript is something I can't afford. It's an expensive, 325pt mistake. Similarly, committing a platoon to lead or aid an assault on an objective and rolling it up Reluctant is going to cause problems when I can't remount bailed tanks or counter-attack in an assault. Rolling up Conscripts there means problems when it comes to being fired on. Each of those platoons is a potential 325pt sinkhole that will open 1/2 the time.

I've paid for tanks that 1/2 of the time, cannot be relied on to be effective. Sure Motivation is less important for tanks, but attacking a dug in infantry company sprawled over objectives is going to end in assaults somewhere down the line, and artillery raining down can just as easily bail as direct AT fire. Even one bailed reluctant tank is almost as good as a kill.

But like I've been saying, it's not the enemy models, and it's not really the fault of the ratings themselves, it's the fault of the 8MB table. Conscripts, however Fearless, cannot be expected to class as 'Elite'. Replacing it with a third CT would go a long way to making it feel like you actually paid for something 'Elite'. 2/3 of a chance to be capable mirrors that fine. Reluctance makes sense in this circumstance, too. A lot of officers were called back to service when they didn't want to be, and veterancy is no indicator of motivation. 1/3 Of a chance to be RT, 1/2 to be CT, and 1/6 to be FT, says "EW Elite Italians" pretty damn well, even without RV/CV.

The table just has too much room for an 'Elite' army costing 'Elite' points to only be as good as or worse than 'Black Shirts', or other nations' regular line troops. It can feel like a real kick in the teeth. Even rolling 8MB before deployment would go a way to mitigating it, being able to make up for the fact you rolled FC and RT for two of your three tank platoons by using them to their strengths and pushing the Reluctants up a more uncontested route and sending the Conscripts through non-boggy areas of the map.

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

I'm deliberately avoiding discussing 8MB because I don't know much about it. I don't play Italians or against them much. Though I think we understand then many tanks have it tough in Early War and their role is often harassment of easy targets rather than breakthrough units like in late war.

If you want it really tough try the Lend Lease Soviet list. All the armour you want (6/5/1 on a Valentine) but conscript rating and no HE.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






UK

 George Spiggott wrote:
I'm deliberately avoiding discussing 8MB because I don't know much about it. I don't play Italians or against them much.


Italians typically get 4 'ratings', 'Regular'; 'Black Shirt'; 'Elite'; and 'Artillery', in order of worst to best in EW. These ratings correspond to tables which contain pre-determined sets of Motivation/Skill ratings, ranging from RC to CV in Early War.

After deployment but before the first turn, the Italian player must roll for each Combat, Weapons, and Support platoon separately on their respective tables to give them their actual in-game ratings. Units held in reserve roll on their tables immediately after they have arrived from reserve.

In EW, the tables look like this:
Regular:
1: RC
2-4: RT
5: CC
6: CT

Black Shirt:
1: CC
2-3: FC
4: RT
5-6: CT

Elite:
1-2: RT
3-4: CT
5: FC
6: FT

Artillery:
1-2: CT
3-5: FT
6: CV

The tables are understandably different in MW, with CV being the main rating of Elite and Artillery troops--the only difference is that Artillery is only CT on a 1 where Elite is CT on 1-2; both are CV 3-5 and FV on 6--and 'Black Shirts' typically being confident/fearless conscripts compared to the largely reluctant trained 'Regulars', and it becomes less clear which rating is objectively the worst, since BShirts can be FT whereas Regulars cannot, even though typically they'll be Conscripts.

There are two other Ratings that are lesser used: Libyan and Sahariana. Libyans are 1: RC 2-4: RT 5-6: CT and Sahariana are all CV, but they aren't used incredibly often.

Essentially, an Italian force is a hodge-podge of different ratings, the majority of which at EW are rather poor with lots of conscripts and lots of reluctant troops. To counter this somewhat, their Fucilieri (Rifle) infantry are comparable to Soviets in size, with the same terminology of squad=platoon/platoon=company/company=battalion with the Fucilieri, and 8 teams per platoon, and 1-3 platoons to a company, and capable of being Regular, Black Shirt, or Elite. Not quite as big as Soviets, but big enough that they can withstand being rated similarly--their tanks don't get the same treatment, however, stuck being 3-5 tanks to a platoon. Their motorcycle squads are also bigger, with the same cost for 4 squads as it costs for 2 identical CT French ones, with the potential for the Italian cycles to only be RT or FC. They don't get as many AT guns as the Soviets, nor artillery, and whilst AT guns use Reg./BShirt/Elite, Artillery obviously uses the Arty table, so it's understandable that they're only allowed 2-4 guns per support option like most other nations. The Italian Bersaglieri (Light Infantry) are Elite, but only come 2 teams to a squad, and 3 squads to a platoon. They're cheap because of this, and Rifle/MGs instead of just Rifles, but low in number and especially vulnerable to poor 8MB rolls. They get a little more in terms of support because they're so cheap and small--you'd likely use up every option before hitting a point limit, otherwise--but it's not much different; the only new option is 1-2 SP coastal guns.

The EW 8MB tables are quite clearly tailored for people using infantry armies, where even Conscript troops can only be hit on 5+ if dug in, GTG, and at long range, and where all infantry teams get a 3+ save regardless of rating. Balancing a potential 96 Elite infantry teams has to be done somehow. They're not as big as Soviets and don't have Wave Attacks, but are also not usually as well rated as other nations, and are costed rather highly. This falls over when it comes to tank teams of the same Elite rating, because they don't have numbers that need balancing, they're easier to hit, they don't get 3+ saves against practically everything just by being tanks, and they're well armoured but are no Hotchkiss or Somua, but the 8MB table seems to assume they still have to be RT or FC half the time for some reason, as if being mostly CT would make them too powerful when other nations have tanks of similar or better armour, similar or better guns, better mobility, and don't cost a hell of a lot more for guaranteed CT. I'm not convinced that much thought went in to how the 8MB tables would affect the tanks, because whilst they're certainly useable, they do rely a bit too much on the luck of a single roll. Italian infantry are several times more resilient than their tanks, and wouldn't have needed the 8MB table if there weren't so many--damn you, Mussolini!--but something had to be implemented to stop them being CT Soviets, and unfortunately the tanks took a rather unnecessary hit from it, too.

It doesn't matter what your opponent fields, if you use Italian Tanks, the 8MB table will always be the main hurdle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/06 22:11:32


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