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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




So this is a derivative of the going-over-on-points thread. We all know that the lists aren't remotely equal in this game. But just how unequal are they? What kind of handicap would be fair in say Dark Eldar vs Eldar? Or BA vs Eldar? The idea of 1850 Eldar vs 2000 BA was brought up, but I feel that 1850 Eldar vs 3000 BA might be closer.
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Depends on the units brought, I.E. Scatterlasers, WKs, Grav Centurions. I'd say a base point of like 1500 vs. 1750 for most armies, so say 15%?

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 jreilly89 wrote:
Depends on the units brought, I.E. Scatterlasers, WKs, Grav Centurions. I'd say a base point of like 1500 vs. 1750 for most armies, so say 15%?


You really think 15% is enough for Eldar? I'm thinking 50% or more because of their insane firepower vs 6th ed and 7.0 codices. They can burn down a third of those lists per turn.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/25 18:59:00


 
   
Made in us
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Martel732 wrote:
 jreilly89 wrote:
Depends on the units brought, I.E. Scatterlasers, WKs, Grav Centurions. I'd say a base point of like 1500 vs. 1750 for most armies, so say 15%?


You really think 15% is enough for Eldar? I'm thinking 50% or more because of their insane firepower vs 6th ed and 7.0 codices. They can burn down a third of those lists per turn.


Against Eldar? I'm not sure. For most armies, I'd be hesitant to do more than a 15% boost to either side without playtesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/25 20:23:59


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 jreilly89 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 jreilly89 wrote:
Depends on the units brought, I.E. Scatterlasers, WKs, Grav Centurions. I'd say a base point of like 1500 vs. 1750 for most armies, so say 15%?


You really think 15% is enough for Eldar? I'm thinking 50% or more because of their insane firepower vs 6th ed and 7.0 codices. They can burn down a third of those lists per turn.


Against Eldar? I'm not sure. For most armies, I'd be hesitant to do more than a 15% boost to either side without playtesting.


I'd say the new Tau are pretty close too. I can fire an entire Ork or BA list at a Stormsurge or Riptide and not even scratch the paint.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/25 20:25:35


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge




What's left of Cadia

So you're saying if I brought my Foot-dar themed list you would demand that I handicap myself points-wise? If I ran lots of scat-bikes and WK's I'd understand that, but what if I run my foot-dar? Not a scatter laser or wraith knight to be found.

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 War Kitten wrote:
So you're saying if I brought my Foot-dar themed list you would demand that I handicap myself points-wise? If I ran lots of scat-bikes and WK's I'd understand that, but what if I run my foot-dar? Not a scatter laser or wraith knight to be found.


Footdar still have a ton of advantages over lowly BA. Namely, fairly priced ranged weapons that actually do something. Standard imperial ranged weapons are overcosted and have crappy platforms. You guys have rending small arms.

I'm not demanding anything anyway. I'm just musing about just how unfair is unfair. I don't REALLY expect a handicap. As long as you don't mind the sarcastic comments throughout the entire, brief match of Eldar vs BA.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/25 20:29:45


 
   
Made in us
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United States

Wouldn't feel good if I win, would feel hopeless if I lost

I am the kinda ork that takes his own washing machine apart, puts new bearings in it, then puts it back together, and it still works. 
   
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 War Kitten wrote:
So you're saying if I brought my Foot-dar themed list you would demand that I handicap myself points-wise? If I ran lots of scat-bikes and WK's I'd understand that, but what if I run my foot-dar? Not a scatter laser or wraith knight to be found.

Which list? Your long range cannons, conclave of psykers, teleporting warp spiders, close combat annihilators, or those D-flamer fiends? The Farseer, Avatar, and Karandras are all foot sloggers.

Very scary lists can be made using nothing but Eldar infantry.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Rismonite wrote:
Wouldn't feel good if I win, would feel hopeless if I lost


I'm already feeling hopeless fielding BA. As I said, it's more of a mathematical exercise to determine just how unfair is unfair. You'd have to play a lot of games to get a real number, though.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge




What's left of Cadia

 Arkaine wrote:
 War Kitten wrote:
So you're saying if I brought my Foot-dar themed list you would demand that I handicap myself points-wise? If I ran lots of scat-bikes and WK's I'd understand that, but what if I run my foot-dar? Not a scatter laser or wraith knight to be found.

Which list? Your long range cannons, conclave of psykers, teleporting warp spiders, close combat annihilators, or those D-flamer fiends? The Farseer, Avatar, and Karandras are all foot sloggers.

Very scary lists can be made using nothing but Eldar infantry.


I meant mostly a list built around Guardians (my personal favorite Eldar unit). I didn't mean to imply anything. I run Iybraesil themed lists. So lots of Guardians and Banshees. I'll admit to liking the Vaul's Wrath batteries. But I'm not a fan of Wraith Guard, or Spiders for that matter. And just 1 Farseer.

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
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 War Kitten wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
 War Kitten wrote:
So you're saying if I brought my Foot-dar themed list you would demand that I handicap myself points-wise? If I ran lots of scat-bikes and WK's I'd understand that, but what if I run my foot-dar? Not a scatter laser or wraith knight to be found.

Which list? Your long range cannons, conclave of psykers, teleporting warp spiders, close combat annihilators, or those D-flamer fiends? The Farseer, Avatar, and Karandras are all foot sloggers.

Very scary lists can be made using nothing but Eldar infantry.


I meant mostly a list built around Guardians (my personal favorite Eldar unit). I didn't mean to imply anything. I run Iybraesil themed lists. So lots of Guardians and Banshees. I'll admit to liking the Vaul's Wrath batteries. But I'm not a fan of Wraith Guard, or Spiders for that matter. And just 1 Farseer.


Honestly, that's an incredibly rare Eldar list at this point. I'd still give it a very good chance to smash any possible thing I construct with BA.
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Martel732 wrote:
Honestly, that's an incredibly rare Eldar list at this point. I'd still give it a very good chance to smash any possible thing I construct with BA.

With or without a Storm Raven full of Sanguinary Guards supported by Death Company?

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Arkaine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Honestly, that's an incredibly rare Eldar list at this point. I'd still give it a very good chance to smash any possible thing I construct with BA.

With or without a Storm Raven full of Sanguinary Guards supported by Death Company?


Sanguinary guard suck; especially against Eldar. Hello rending small arms. Death company are easily defeated by spoiling assaults or just shooting them before they can assault. Stormravens are overcosted garbage flyers.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/25 21:41:47


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge




What's left of Cadia

I just want to say this. Shuriken Catapults only have a 12 inch range, so if I use Guardians I have to get relatively close to use them, and then hope I get a good battle focus run move, else I'm in easy charge range, and Guardians crumble in assault against most things in my experience.

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Martel732 wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Honestly, that's an incredibly rare Eldar list at this point. I'd still give it a very good chance to smash any possible thing I construct with BA.

With or without a Storm Raven full of Sanguinary Guards supported by Death Company?


Sanguinary guard suck; especially against Eldar. Hello rending small arms. Death company are easily defeated by spoiling assaults or just shooting them before they can assault. Stormravens are overcosted garbage flyers.

Now now, Sangs only suck outside of close combat. The Storm Raven gets them there safely. Death Company can deep strike behind blocking terrain and then fly over it to assault next turn. You'll get perfect striking with some Rhino spam, along with all the marines to shoot at the infantry.

Typical successful BA lists run this style of list. A bunch of rhino troops, Death Company, Sangs on a plane, and they at least outperform Chaos or Orks. Not the worst codex!

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Arkaine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Honestly, that's an incredibly rare Eldar list at this point. I'd still give it a very good chance to smash any possible thing I construct with BA.

With or without a Storm Raven full of Sanguinary Guards supported by Death Company?


Sanguinary guard suck; especially against Eldar. Hello rending small arms. Death company are easily defeated by spoiling assaults or just shooting them before they can assault. Stormravens are overcosted garbage flyers.

Now now, Sangs only suck outside of close combat. The Storm Raven gets them there safely. Death Company can deep strike behind blocking terrain and then fly over it to assault next turn. You'll get perfect striking with some Rhino spam, along with all the marines to shoot at the infantry.

Typical successful BA lists run this style of list. A bunch of rhino troops, Death Company, Sangs on a plane, and they at least outperform Chaos or Orks. Not the worst codex!


I think it is the worst codex. If the Raven gets shot down, you lose the game right there. I'm not convinced at all that the BA outperform CSM or Ork. Orks are counter meta with large numbers of bodies and CSM at least have good FW options and heldrakes. Heldrakes are much better flies than Stormravens at this point.

Also, there are no typical successful BA lists.
   
Made in ca
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Canada

Chaos needs no handicap.

I have defeated 10 wraithknights at once with a min squad of thousand Sons.

3000 Points Tzeentch 
   
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Upstate, New York

There is so much variance within an army, rather then setting handicaps at that level it would be better to adjust points on the good/bad units. Tons more work, but would yield better results.

The free boosts from formations is a whole other can of worms.

40k has always has balance issues. I'm not sure if they are at their worst these days, but they are in the running.

Eldar could probably play without formations and still do quite well. With them, I don't think a 10-20% handicap would be out of line.

   
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Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Martel732 wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Honestly, that's an incredibly rare Eldar list at this point. I'd still give it a very good chance to smash any possible thing I construct with BA.

With or without a Storm Raven full of Sanguinary Guards supported by Death Company?


Sanguinary guard suck; especially against Eldar. Hello rending small arms. Death company are easily defeated by spoiling assaults or just shooting them before they can assault. Stormravens are overcosted garbage flyers.

Now now, Sangs only suck outside of close combat. The Storm Raven gets them there safely. Death Company can deep strike behind blocking terrain and then fly over it to assault next turn. You'll get perfect striking with some Rhino spam, along with all the marines to shoot at the infantry.

Typical successful BA lists run this style of list. A bunch of rhino troops, Death Company, Sangs on a plane, and they at least outperform Chaos or Orks. Not the worst codex!


I think it is the worst codex. If the Raven gets shot down, you lose the game right there. I'm not convinced at all that the BA outperform CSM or Ork. Orks are counter meta with large numbers of bodies and CSM at least have good FW options and heldrakes. Heldrakes are much better flies than Stormravens at this point.

Also, there are no typical successful BA lists.


BA's still get Grav guns/pistols, Drop Pods, better MSU, much more synergy from their IC's, the ability to Deathstar, better army-wide rules, etc... over Chaos Marines.
Sure Chaos has Helldrakes, but beyond that you're pretty much left with Plaguemarines, AoBF Lords, Spawn and MSU Nurgle, coupled with the worst armoury page in the entire game.

Grav alone gives BA's an automatic hard-counter to everything bar Cultists that Chaos Marines can field! Sure it's not nearly as auto-win as what Vanillas & DA's can make it into, but with an MSU build, BA's can still spam enough of it to remove handfuls of the most over-costed MEQ's in the game each turn.

 
   
Made in us
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Illinois

@Martel732

I'm just curious but what do you think might need to be done to bring your BA up to post 7th Ed Necrons codex level?

You are always pretty vocal about why the BA suck.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






State of Jefferson

Cant BA assault out of reserves or something like that?

I think handicaps are appropriate. I think a sliding scale that is automated. How many armies are there like 17 or something?

How about using data from torrent of fire... I would rank them by competitive standings. Start at your points total....

Lets say we are going to do a 2000 point tourney. The worst lists lets say Blood Angels, Orks, CSM and Sororitas get 2000 points rattling down to 1700 for top tier guys like Eldar, Necrons and Daemons. Each year it changes depending on the top in the current meta from the previous year. Easy, universal.

Allies? Tough gak. Orks with Eldar get 1700 points, but maybe Orks with CSM get 2000 since they may be bottom tier from last year or quarter or whatever.
   
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Experiment 626 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Honestly, that's an incredibly rare Eldar list at this point. I'd still give it a very good chance to smash any possible thing I construct with BA.

With or without a Storm Raven full of Sanguinary Guards supported by Death Company?


Sanguinary guard suck; especially against Eldar. Hello rending small arms. Death company are easily defeated by spoiling assaults or just shooting them before they can assault. Stormravens are overcosted garbage flyers.

Now now, Sangs only suck outside of close combat. The Storm Raven gets them there safely. Death Company can deep strike behind blocking terrain and then fly over it to assault next turn. You'll get perfect striking with some Rhino spam, along with all the marines to shoot at the infantry.

Typical successful BA lists run this style of list. A bunch of rhino troops, Death Company, Sangs on a plane, and they at least outperform Chaos or Orks. Not the worst codex!


I think it is the worst codex. If the Raven gets shot down, you lose the game right there. I'm not convinced at all that the BA outperform CSM or Ork. Orks are counter meta with large numbers of bodies and CSM at least have good FW options and heldrakes. Heldrakes are much better flies than Stormravens at this point.

Also, there are no typical successful BA lists.


BA's still get Grav guns/pistols, Drop Pods, better MSU, much more synergy from their IC's, the ability to Deathstar, better army-wide rules, etc... over Chaos Marines.
Sure Chaos has Helldrakes, but beyond that you're pretty much left with Plaguemarines, AoBF Lords, Spawn and MSU Nurgle, coupled with the worst armoury page in the entire game.

Grav alone gives BA's an automatic hard-counter to everything bar Cultists that Chaos Marines can field! Sure it's not nearly as auto-win as what Vanillas & DA's can make it into, but with an MSU build, BA's can still spam enough of it to remove handfuls of the most over-costed MEQ's in the game each turn.


Its not just ba vs csm, its both lists vs the field. I think csm is better vs the field.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bomtek80 wrote:
@Martel732

I'm just curious but what do you think might need to be done to bring your BA up to post 7th Ed Necrons codex level?

You are always pretty vocal about why the BA suck.


I gotta be honest here. With way ba are supposed to work, I can't imagine any reasonable fix. Meqs aren't good; bikers and centurions are. Assault isn't good w/o a good death star build and ba don't have that either. Our lord of war is even a joke compared to good low. Jump troops of all types pretty much suck because they aren't bikes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 06:55:18


 
   
Made in us
Abel





Washington State

You can't handicap an entire army versus another army. It's not that Eldar are OP, it's that you can field them in a certain way that makes them OP. Would you handicap an Eldar player that brought nothing but Guardians, a Farseer on foot, maybe a Wraith Lord (not Wraith Knight), and Howling Banshees?

Or what about the Space Marine player that brings nothing but Tactical Squads and a Captain? Does he get handicapped just because he could field a Gladius Strike Force with free Rhinos/Drop Pods?

What about the Tau? Do you handicap the player that brings a bunch of Fire Warriors, an Ethereal, a couple Pirahana's, some Vespid, and Kroot? Just because he could bring a detachment of 3 Storm Surges and nine Riptides?

Nah, handicaps are way too subjective and difficult to justify.

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Made in pl
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Would you handicap an Eldar player that brought nothing but Guardians, a Farseer on foot, maybe a Wraith Lord (not Wraith Knight), and Howling Banshees?

the list is better what my IG can do, even without the eldar playing taking transports for his guardians. His fire power is higher and he can move more easily. And WL are very hard to kill for an IG army. And this is if I take the tournament version of the IG. If I went for a choice of bad units like the eldar player, he would just walk over me.


Or what about the Space Marine player that brings nothing but Tactical Squads and a Captain? Does he get handicapped just because he could field a Gladius Strike Force with free Rhinos/Drop Pods?

No body takes tacs outside of gladius. So the question is irrelevant.

What about the Tau? Do you handicap the player that brings a bunch of Fire Warriors, an Ethereal, a couple Pirahana's, some Vespid, and Kroot? Just because he could bring a detachment of 3 Storm Surges and nine Riptides?

I don't think they fit in to 1500pts, nor is it possible to run them without going unbound so again irrelevant. On the other hand eldar players can fit everything they want in to 1500pts, including a titan and even they bad lists are better then my armies best, in fact most of eldar bad units we have the case of them being not bad, but worse then other units already in the codex. The WL is not bad, it is just worse then a WK.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 09:17:21


 
   
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 Tamwulf wrote:
You can't handicap an entire army versus another army. It's not that Eldar are OP, it's that you can field them in a certain way that makes them OP. Would you handicap an Eldar player that brought nothing but Guardians, a Farseer on foot, maybe a Wraith Lord (not Wraith Knight), and Howling Banshees?

Or what about the Space Marine player that brings nothing but Tactical Squads and a Captain? Does he get handicapped just because he could field a Gladius Strike Force with free Rhinos/Drop Pods?

What about the Tau? Do you handicap the player that brings a bunch of Fire Warriors, an Ethereal, a couple Pirahana's, some Vespid, and Kroot? Just because he could bring a detachment of 3 Storm Surges and nine Riptides?

Nah, handicaps are way too subjective and difficult to justify.


No, Eldar are OP. Unit for unit, they are superior to pretty much every other list in the game.
   
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What's left of Cadia

 Tamwulf wrote:
You can't handicap an entire army versus another army. It's not that Eldar are OP, it's that you can field them in a certain way that makes them OP. Would you handicap an Eldar player that brought nothing but Guardians, a Farseer on foot, maybe a Wraith Lord (not Wraith Knight), and Howling Banshees?

Or what about the Space Marine player that brings nothing but Tactical Squads and a Captain? Does he get handicapped just because he could field a Gladius Strike Force with free Rhinos/Drop Pods?

What about the Tau? Do you handicap the player that brings a bunch of Fire Warriors, an Ethereal, a couple Pirahana's, some Vespid, and Kroot? Just because he could bring a detachment of 3 Storm Surges and nine Riptides?

Nah, handicaps are way too subjective and difficult to justify.


I have to agree with you, but I don't think the others will. People just see Eldar, think OP, no matter what the actual composition of the army is. The army is very strong, there is no denying that. But it's unfair to try and force a handicap onto someone just because of the army they play. If I brought nothing but jetbikes and wraithknights, I would understand the desire for a handicap. But I don't. I'm planning on running a Guardian heavy list, with Banshees to fit the Craftworld I chose. So I don't understand the want for a handicap either.

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 War Kitten wrote:
 Tamwulf wrote:
You can't handicap an entire army versus another army. It's not that Eldar are OP, it's that you can field them in a certain way that makes them OP. Would you handicap an Eldar player that brought nothing but Guardians, a Farseer on foot, maybe a Wraith Lord (not Wraith Knight), and Howling Banshees?

Or what about the Space Marine player that brings nothing but Tactical Squads and a Captain? Does he get handicapped just because he could field a Gladius Strike Force with free Rhinos/Drop Pods?

What about the Tau? Do you handicap the player that brings a bunch of Fire Warriors, an Ethereal, a couple Pirahana's, some Vespid, and Kroot? Just because he could bring a detachment of 3 Storm Surges and nine Riptides?

Nah, handicaps are way too subjective and difficult to justify.


I have to agree with you, but I don't think the others will. People just see Eldar, think OP, no matter what the actual composition of the army is. The army is very strong, there is no denying that. But it's unfair to try and force a handicap onto someone just because of the army they play. If I brought nothing but jetbikes and wraithknights, I would understand the desire for a handicap. But I don't. I'm planning on running a Guardian heavy list, with Banshees to fit the Craftworld I chose. So I don't understand the want for a handicap either.


Because those units are still better than BA.
   
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What's left of Cadia

Really? Guardians and Howling Banshees are better than the entire Blood Angels codex? I find that hard to believe. But whatever, you're not going to give up your stance that Blood Angels suck, so why should I bother?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 18:40:15


TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Northern California

Of course, when talking about point handicaps and the need to balance the game, the subject inevitably turns to Eldar. And no Eldar thread would be complete without my trolling!
Makumba wrote:
Would you handicap an Eldar player that brought nothing but Guardians, a Farseer on foot, maybe a Wraith Lord (not Wraith Knight), and Howling Banshees?

the list is better what my IG can do, even without the eldar playing taking transports for his guardians. His fire power is higher and he can move more easily. And WL are very hard to kill for an IG army. And this is if I take the tournament version of the IG. If I went for a choice of bad units like the eldar player, he would just walk over me.


Or what about the Space Marine player that brings nothing but Tactical Squads and a Captain? Does he get handicapped just because he could field a Gladius Strike Force with free Rhinos/Drop Pods?

No body takes tacs outside of gladius. So the question is irrelevant.

What about the Tau? Do you handicap the player that brings a bunch of Fire Warriors, an Ethereal, a couple Pirahana's, some Vespid, and Kroot? Just because he could bring a detachment of 3 Storm Surges and nine Riptides?

I don't think they fit in to 1500pts, nor is it possible to run them without going unbound so again irrelevant. On the other hand eldar players can fit everything they want in to 1500pts, including a titan and even they bad lists are better then my armies best, in fact most of eldar bad units we have the case of them being not bad, but worse then other units already in the codex. The WL is not bad, it is just worse then a WK.

Sure, the Footdar list is much more mobile than IG infantry. Eldar infantry also cost around double what IG infantry cost, while being just as squishy. IG has relatively cheap transports to move around its infantry; you can buy two Chimeras for the price of a Wave Serpent with the standard loadout. There's going to be a lot of Eldar infantry running on foot.

Considering that a Wraithlord only has three wounds and no invulnerable save, you can actually kill one with sufficient application of lascannons.

The problem is not that Eldar as a whole are overpowered. The problem is that armies like IG are seveerly lacking in internal balance.
Martel732 wrote:No, Eldar are OP. Unit for unit, they are superior to pretty much every other list in the game.

Wraithknights, Scatbikers, Seer Councils on Jetbikes, and massed D-weapons are overpowered. The rest of the codex is relatively balanced.

War Kitten wrote:
 Tamwulf wrote:
You can't handicap an entire army versus another army. It's not that Eldar are OP, it's that you can field them in a certain way that makes them OP. Would you handicap an Eldar player that brought nothing but Guardians, a Farseer on foot, maybe a Wraith Lord (not Wraith Knight), and Howling Banshees?

Or what about the Space Marine player that brings nothing but Tactical Squads and a Captain? Does he get handicapped just because he could field a Gladius Strike Force with free Rhinos/Drop Pods?

What about the Tau? Do you handicap the player that brings a bunch of Fire Warriors, an Ethereal, a couple Pirahana's, some Vespid, and Kroot? Just because he could bring a detachment of 3 Storm Surges and nine Riptides?

Nah, handicaps are way too subjective and difficult to justify.


I have to agree with you, but I don't think the others will. People just see Eldar, think OP, no matter what the actual composition of the army is. The army is very strong, there is no denying that. But it's unfair to try and force a handicap onto someone just because of the army they play. If I brought nothing but jetbikes and wraithknights, I would understand the desire for a handicap. But I don't. I'm planning on running a Guardian heavy list, with Banshees to fit the Craftworld I chose. So I don't understand the want for a handicap either.

Exalted for truth. Would you handicap a Sapce Marine player who brought Centstars or a Tyranid player who brought six FMCs the same way you would handicap any Eldar army?

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