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weeble1000 wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
It's possible he was using that because it was the word investors kept throwing in his face.

That's my interpretation. Otherwise it is a really weird choice of phrasing. Saying "indecent amount of your money" is so potentially damaging that I don't think he would have said it if it hadn't already been said to him more than a few times.

Even then.. That's a phrase you should never actually use so you don't scare off potential investors.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
I wonder who told Kirby he'd spent an 'indecent' amount of money on the case. That doesn't seem like the word you'd volunteer for your own investor report. Unless he is so crazy he's actually proud of the current victories over CHS. It's hard to know with GW management.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper;
only those that prosper
truly judge what is sane.

-Tom Kirby (?)

Anvildude wrote:

 poda_t wrote:


@ Auld Grump
Realistically, you have to look at it from the other side. It's a slippery slope argument, but if you own a business, it is in your interest to act on this. If you allow "knockoff" add-on parts, how long until the demand at the third party firm results in that firm beginning manufacturing of "knockoff" models? At that point it starts cutting into your business, because you are the one doing the front-end work of getting customers, but then other businesses who offer similar products reap the back-end benefit with a limited advertising campaign. If you are the one that's invested hundreds of thousands and an entire career, you'd start getting annoyed. Notwithstanding your being annoyed, you should do the proper leg work for filing your patents and documenting everything from conception to sale.

That works all well and good for, say, Pepsi taking "Popsi" to court (fakety fake fake, by the way), but doesn't really fly in this case, considering that any 3rd party 'knockoff' manufacturer that spends $100 putting up fliers has put more money into advertising than GW has in the last decade, and probably done more to raise awareness of the 'hobby' and GW itself, to boot!

Any and all 'front end work' really only would include the design of the models and creation of the story to go along with them, which, as we've also seen, hasn't really been done by GW either, but rather by the hundreds of Science Fiction authors and artists that came before them, which they ripped off.

just for the sake of responding to not just this one but all of the other responses to my remarks:
I should have taken greater care identifying what I meant by "knockoff". By "knockoff" I mean something that is inspired, and aims to present a different aesthetic but is not intended to replace a product (line) wholesale, but supplement it. IE: Anvil Industry's exo-lords, kromlech's bionic bits (or the orks, because, PIRATE HATS FOR EVERYONE!!!). Additionally, something that steps out and identifies that it is not infringing on a trademark either. Hence, "Knockoff" because GW will harpoon you if you use Dark Elves anywhere in your product name, etc.

 poda_t wrote:

Anvildude wrote:

 poda_t wrote:


@ Auld Grump
Realistically, you have to look at it from the other side. It's a slippery slope argument, but if you own a business, it is in your interest to act on this. If you allow "knockoff" add-on parts, how long until the demand at the third party firm results in that firm beginning manufacturing of "knockoff" models? At that point it starts cutting into your business, because you are the one doing the front-end work of getting customers, but then other businesses who offer similar products reap the back-end benefit with a limited advertising campaign. If you are the one that's invested hundreds of thousands and an entire career, you'd start getting annoyed. Notwithstanding your being annoyed, you should do the proper leg work for filing your patents and documenting everything from conception to sale.

That works all well and good for, say, Pepsi taking "Popsi" to court (fakety fake fake, by the way), but doesn't really fly in this case, considering that any 3rd party 'knockoff' manufacturer that spends $100 putting up fliers has put more money into advertising than GW has in the last decade, and probably done more to raise awareness of the 'hobby' and GW itself, to boot!

Any and all 'front end work' really only would include the design of the models and creation of the story to go along with them, which, as we've also seen, hasn't really been done by GW either, but rather by the hundreds of Science Fiction authors and artists that came before them, which they ripped off.

just for the sake of responding to not just this one but all of the other responses to my remarks:
I should have taken greater care identifying what I meant by "knockoff". By "knockoff" I mean something that is inspired, and aims to present a different aesthetic but is not intended to replace a product (line) wholesale, but supplement it. IE: Anvil Industry's exo-lords, kromlech's bionic bits (or the orks, because, PIRATE HATS FOR EVERYONE!!!). Additionally, something that steps out and identifies that it is not infringing on a trademark either. Hence, "Knockoff" because GW will harpoon you if you use Dark Elves anywhere in your product name, etc.

Bad example - Dark Elf is not a property that GW owns.... It is in fact a creature from Norse mythology, and would be like trying to trademark Lizardman.

Maybe you meant Dark Eldar?

And, again, there is nothing illegal with saying that your product is compatible with GW Dark Eldar, just make sure that you jump through the proper hoops with a statement that you do not own the term Dark Eldar, that Dark Eldar is a trademark of Games Workshop, and etc..

But do avoid using GW's trade dress while discussing compatibility.

Do not make your packaging look like an official GW product.

The Auld Grump

The Chapterhouse Studios website has been down for maintenance for a little while now.

Signs of a settlement?

 Holdenstein wrote:
The Chapterhouse Studios website has been down for maintenance for a little while now.

Signs of a settlement?

Interesting. If so, I wonder why. From what I gather he could keep his business going. Only thing I can think of if his business is closed is GW bought him out basically so they could keep it all quiet. Most likely cheaper to buy him out than to do a retrial and keep going. How many millions did GW spend on the lawsuit? Cheaper to give him a few hundred thousand dollars, more than he may ever get from selling his products, and now he can live comfortably for the rest of his life.

Or his site his down and being a one man show will take time to get back up again.

For me personally, the only thing I really liked from his range of stuff was the Stormraven conversion kit. Other stuff was just meh.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
For me personally, the only thing I really liked from his range of stuff was the Stormraven conversion kit. Other stuff was just meh.

I would hope you agree, though, that anyone should be able to produce 'meh' products without being sued, yes?

A persistent irony throughout this whole affair is that it probably would have been cheaper and easier for GW to achieve its goals simply through market forces. Just look at the modular combi-weapons in the new Space Marine kit. Where did GW get that idea from?

Imagine how much better of a position GW would be in now if the company actually chose to do what it says it does: make the best miniatures in the world. Come to the market with a better product at a better price. Leverage your relative size to compete, not in litigation, but on price, quality, and selection.

weeble1000 wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
For me personally, the only thing I really liked from his range of stuff was the Stormraven conversion kit. Other stuff was just meh.

Imagine how much better of a position GW would be in now if the company actually chose to do what it says it does: make the best miniatures in the world. Come to the market with a better product at a better price. Leverage your relative size to compete, not in litigation, but on price, quality, and selection.

I actually said pretty much the same thing back in the early 2000's when more companies, like PP, started releasing miniature games. I figured that GW would leverage it's market presence, experience, and financial strength to create better and cheaper models to prevent any competitor from gaining more than a foothold in the overall market.

Boy, was I wrong.

Well whois still shows the domain as registered to Nick, so it could just be taking a long time.

I hope he's still going on with it. I like the death angel doors, for the land raider. When I do marines that will be my first order.

Checking their not-Aegis KS the most recent post was 9/5 and titled "Its Coming".
So perhaps the web store is just getting a lot of new product entered

weeble1000 wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
For me personally, the only thing I really liked from his range of stuff was the Stormraven conversion kit. Other stuff was just meh.

I would hope you agree, though, that anyone should be able to produce 'meh' products without being sued, yes?

A persistent irony throughout this whole affair is that it probably would have been cheaper and easier for GW to achieve its goals simply through market forces. Just look at the modular combi-weapons in the new Space Marine kit. Where did GW get that idea from?

Imagine how much better of a position GW would be in now if the company actually chose to do what it says it does: make the best miniatures in the world. Come to the market with a better product at a better price. Leverage your relative size to compete, not in litigation, but on price, quality, and selection.

We'll have none of that logical capitalist propaganda in here!!!

Hats off to anyone giving modern GW the big ol' finger. If I could, I'd go drop a few bucks on Chapterhouse products right now just because...

While I will always purchase GW products, as long as they are not finecast garbage, I get annoyed at their monopolistic behavior and planned obsolescence (like paint pots DESIGNED to reduce the lifespan by exposing paint surface area to air every time the pot is opened). I think that they are WAY too quick to attack other mini producers in an effort to line their coffers even more. If they stuck to really producing what their customers want then they'd secure the market share without the need for additional litigation.

 Holdenstein wrote:
The Chapterhouse Studios website has been down for maintenance for a little while now.

Signs of a settlement?

Not likely, the SQL server there is throwing fits, but not offline, so my money is they're having trouble updating the site.

The Chapterhouse Spore Pod is awesome! As is their space bug defense line, which I snagged post-Kickstarter. I agree that some of their bits have had soft detail, but I believe they were making pre-heresy jump packs before GW or FW were (and thus, I was able to get some for a project back when I needed them!). I hope they continue to provide alternative bits, and that other companies (including the plethora in Poland ) do, too.

Davor wrote:
Cheaper to give him a few hundred thousand dollars, more than he may ever get from selling his products, and now he can live comfortably for the rest of his life.

I'm sorry. What?
Live comfortanly for the rest of his life on a few hundred thousand? Maybe if he died in a year... MAYBE.

Eric

 MagickalMemories wrote:

Davor wrote:
Cheaper to give him a few hundred thousand dollars, more than he may ever get from selling his products, and now he can live comfortably for the rest of his life.

I'm sorry. What?
Live comfortanly for the rest of his life on a few hundred thousand? Maybe if he died in a year... MAYBE.

Eric

100k would bearly keep me in wine, loose women and drugs and the divorce to go along with them when my wife caught me.

Topic....

The site is still down, any news?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
The site is still down, any news?

No news on the appeal front, nothing has been added to pacer.

I have a query for the experts out there - while the appeals process has taken some months in 'real time', how much (as a very VERY rough approximation) would have been spent by the professionals working the case? I have an understanding that it's not something that a lawyer would be devoted to full time, week in, week out, but as an estimate - an hour a week? More/less? Just to gauge how much time has passed ' actually devoted to this case alone'

Impossible to say at this point. The appeals process has been "on hold," pending settlement discussions, for an unusually long time.

Could GW be intentionally drawing out these discussions until Kirby has already fled the scene?

To what point?

I suppose GW would want to drag it out for as long as possible for (x) reason, but I can't see "Until Kirby leaves" being one of them.

 Alpharius wrote:
To what point?

I suppose GW would want to drag it out for as long as possible for (x) reason, but I can't see "Until Kirby leaves" being one of them.

Unless it's Kirby himself who's behind it and is keeping his motivation secret (for obvious reasons).

They might want to wait to sign some big licensing/sale deal before announcing a settlement that shows their IP isn't gold plated.

Could be related to The Hobbit running down in a few months, could be a big video game launch (like that Warhammer: Total War), could be a buyout.

Or could just be Kirby wanting to cash out before the share price bombs.

But even if GW wants to stall, I can't imagine CHS wants to.

I just want to note that the extant public record does not give any indication as to what is going on 'behind the scenes', so to speak.

There could be plenty of reasons for why the briefing schedule for the appeal remains suspended. Ultimately, the court suspended the briefing schedule, and the court will have to reinstate it, likely not until petitioned by the parties to do so, unless the parties settle out and request to have the appeal closed.

But for those wondering what reason a party might have for delaying briefing on an appeal, eddieazrael raises a salient question. Delay, on its face, costs pretty well nothing. Briefing costs money. Cost is one of the the simplest, most basic reasons a party might wish to delay briefing an appeal. Lawyers sitting on their hands don't cost money. Lawyers researching and drafting briefs cost money.

Now, that said, another reason to delay briefing is to allow time to prepare, which is the flip side of the cost coin. If you need more time to prepare your briefs, you might want to drag out the deadlines by which they must be submitted to the court. While the briefing schedule is suspended, the clock isn't running.

Like I said, the possibilities are many, but that just gives you an idea about the economics of litigation. Every bit of time a lawyer puts into a file will be billed. If you don't want to pay your lawyers, it is much cheaper to have them gin up roadblocks than prepare federal appellate court briefs. Conversely, if a lawyer thinks that he might not get paid for his time, he would tend to prefer to spend as little of that time as possible on the file so as to minimize any potential loss.

Bear in mind that lawyers have an ethical obligation to zealously represent the best interests of their client. If you are representing a client and the deadline for a brief is coming up, you've got to darn well draft that brief because if you don't it will harm your client's interests. However, if there's no deadlines coming up, such as when a briefing schedule is suspended indefinitely, a lawyer has little obligation to put time into a file.

This is just general litigation stuff. Again, there's no way to really know what is going on behind the scenes by looking at the public record. All that record shows is that the parties went into standard, mediated settlement negotiations after which the court suspended the briefing schedule indefinitely.

That was more than 7 months ago, which seems like an unusual length of time for court mediated settlement negotiations. Something is happening to drag this thing out, whether it is deliberate stall tactics, productive settlement negotiations, random happenstance, or an act of God we just have no way of knowing based on the public record.

I know it's not news of the court case directly, so I hope it's appropriate to this thread but with the Chapterhouse website still off line I was looking at their Facebook page - appears from their comments there that Games Workshop have applied to have their accounts frozen. Presumably this would explain why the web store is still down...

If that is the case it suggests they're probably not about to make friends and come out with a settlement?