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Since the other thread was closed, I thought I'd make an on topic thread here.

I view the Riptide as the beginning of the MC insanity that has taken over the game. It remains one of the worst offenders with access to FNP, making it a pocket GMC of sorts. Some people think this unit is fine in 7.5, whereas others like myself still find its durability insane for the cost.

Martel732 wrote:
Since the other thread was closed, I thought I'd make an on topic thread here.

I view the Riptide as the beginning of the MC insanity that has taken over the game. It remains one of the worst offenders with access to FNP, making it a pocket GMC of sorts. Some people think this unit is fine in 7.5, whereas others like myself still find its durability insane for the cost.

Its OP just like most of the taus toys. Their formation is even more stupid.... However, just like in other threads, taus players will keep saying their codex is bad... They are so unlucky ..

I see the other thread getting locked didn't get the message across.

It's an old and tired out subject, where people prove you mathematically wrong over and over again and you keep complaining that your BA are not as good/don't have grav/assault is dead /whatever, ignoring the fact BA are curbstomped by nearly every codex, other marines included, and just focus your hate on tau.

We've done this dance over a dozen times now, with you repeating the same washed out arguments over and over and being proved subjectively wrong over and over.

Let it the feth go. This vendetta is absurd. Riptides don't need the zeal worthy nerf you want, just minor tweaking and nobody is even arguing against it. Many units out there are far more dominating for over an edition now but you are still fixated on riptides and tau in general.


Mods, please lock this too. Along with any future martel riptide rage thread.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I see the other thread getting locked didn't get the message across.

It's an old and tired out subject, where people prove you mathematically wrong over and over again and you keep complaining that your BA are not as good/don't have grav/assault is dead /whatever, ignoring the fact BA are curbstomped by nearly every codex, other marines included, and just focus your hate on tau.

We've done this dance over a dozen times now, with you repeating the same washed out arguments over and over and being proved subjectively wrong over and over.

Let it the feth go. This vendetta is absurd. Riptides don't need the zeal worthy nerf you want, just minor tweaking and nobody is even arguing against it. Many units out there are far more dominating for over an edition now but you are still fixated on riptides and tau in general.


Mods, please lock this too. Along with any future martel riptide rage thread.

And here comes the first one

 BoomWolf wrote:
I see the other thread getting locked didn't get the message across.

It's an old and tired out subject, where people prove you mathematically wrong over and over again and you keep complaining that your BA are not as good/don't have grav/assault is dead /whatever, ignoring the fact BA are curbstomped by nearly every codex, other marines included, and just focus your hate on tau.

We've done this dance over a dozen times now, with you repeating the same washed out arguments over and over and being proved subjectively wrong over and over.

Let it the feth go. This vendetta is absurd. Riptides don't need the zeal worthy nerf you want, just minor tweaking and nobody is even arguing against it. Many units out there are far more dominating for over an edition now but you are still fixated on riptides and tau in general.


Mods, please lock this too. Along with any future martel riptide rage thread.

Glad you think you've ever proved anything.

"nobody is even arguing against it."

You seem awfully desperate to make the discussion go away.

You're also more than welcome to put me on ignore. Since you've already proven me wrong and all that.

Riptides are ignorable while you kill off all of their Markerlight support. If my opponent fielded a Riptide Wing, I'd thank them for making my life easier, then precede on dismantling their list.

SJ

I still think its more of a you problem then anything else.

Your playing with a gaming group that refuses to use LOS blocking terrain.

You refuse to bring allies , even though the rules totaly allow for it

You have a unrealistic wants . ( 5 marines in a drop pod being able to shoot a riptide off the board in 1 round of shooting )

There was a very worthwhile post in another thread here about how some - like Martel and I - are "stuck in 3rd Ed", when it comes to the nastier stuff these days (I never played 3rd).

The core concept I felt was more that we're looking at different ideal levels.

For levels, there seems to be a "7.5" level and a "7.0" level (among others). The problem comes from Tau in general and the Riptide specifically are way OP at the "7.0" level, but are about even, or possibly even a little short, at the "7.5" level.

So Martel (and I, among others), argue in relation to one level, and others argue in relation to another level. Naturally, both groups could be correct simultaneously. But the base is different, and people don't realize, so both sides often can't understand how the other side can be so stupid.

Personally, I like the "7.0" level more. But others may like "7.5" more. Me saying the Riptide is OP, in reference to "7.0", isn't necessarily wrong just because it isn't OP at the "7.5" level (and Vica versa)

I like everything bharring said and agree with it.
But I assume it'll be ignored

kambien wrote:
I still think its more of a you problem then anything else.

Your playing with a gaming group that refuses to use LOS blocking terrain.

You refuse to bring allies , even though the rules totaly allow for it

You have a unrealistic wants . ( 5 marines in a drop pod being able to shoot a riptide off the board in 1 round of shooting )

Not sure I ever claimed that. Although those 5 marines could do it to a more expensive IK if they all had combi-meltas. Which is my exact problem with the Riptide. They make IKs look way overcosted. Because MC >>>>> vehicle in almost every case.

Upon introduction of allies to BA, you might as well replace the entire list because the BA part of the list just becomes a liability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
There was a very worthwhile post in another thread here about how some - like Martel and I - are "stuck in 3rd Ed", when it comes to the nastier stuff these days (I never played 3rd).

The core concept I felt was more that we're looking at different ideal levels.

For levels, there seems to be a "7.5" level and a "7.0" level (among others). The problem comes from Tau in general and the Riptide specifically are way OP at the "7.0" level, but are about even, or possibly even a little short, at the "7.5" level.

So Martel (and I, among others), argue in relation to one level, and others argue in relation to another level. Naturally, both groups could be correct simultaneously. But the base is different, and people don't realize, so both sides often can't understand how the other side can be so stupid.

Personally, I like the "7.0" level more. But others may like "7.5" more. Me saying the Riptide is OP, in reference to "7.0", isn't necessarily wrong just because it isn't OP at the "7.5" level (and Vica versa)

The 7.5 level makes so many units completely useless.

Death-company are about the only good BA unit. And Mephistopheles.

Storm raven formation is not bad except skyhammer does it better. Just play your BA with ultra marines or Iron hands tactics. Nobody would hold that against you.

Even Grav-centurions are a crapshoot against Riptides. If the Riptide has FNP it probably lives, if it has 4+ cover it most certainly will, and that's not taking Interceptor into account. The fact that even Grav-Cents struggle to deal with Riptides ought to illustrate how silly the entire situation is.

My carnifex is still twiddling it's thumbs with my trygon over here!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
My carnifex is still twiddling it's thumbs with my trygon over here!

And both stunned by the awkward silence as they try to ignore my converted penitent engine quietly weeping.

@AlmightyWalrus, How do your grav cents not cause 5 overall wounds on a 2+? his 5++ and 5+++ shouldn't block enough overall wounds to have your grav cents fail.
or just run a force weapon and use instant death to your favor. no fnp roll.

Using a force weapon on a riptide is pretty hard in actual play. The riptide has extremely long range weaponary, for the most part, so you usually have to cross the entire table to reach one. Once there, the Riptide is incredibly fast as well. It has no desire at all to allow CC to happen.

It's much easier to kill a Carnifex, Dreadknight, or any other slow, relatively good at melee, short ranged MC in melee with a force weapon. It's much harder to catch something like the Riptide.

It's like avoiding the shooting of the scatbikes. Sure, it sounds like the obvious solution, but in practice its extremely difficult and usually requires a mistake from your opponent.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Even Grav-centurions are a crapshoot against Riptides. If the Riptide has FNP it probably lives, if it has 4+ cover it most certainly will, and that's not taking Interceptor into account. The fact that even Grav-Cents struggle to deal with Riptides ought to illustrate how silly the entire situation is.

An excellent point that is frequently made and ignored by tau players.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
My carnifex is still twiddling it's thumbs with my trygon over here!

Mine lost its thumbs a few times over. Every one of my Carnis are looking like Old One Eye's ugly brothers...

But I actually like the Riptide in the setting of playing against people that don't spam them. Two Riptides is tough to handle, but I never have balked at playing against them like I have balked at five Flyrants, two Wraithknights, Scatbike Spam or Skyhammer. The Riptides are a FAR smaller threat in my eyes, but that might be because the rest of that stuff came out AFTER I got back into the game and the Riptides I just embraced as the normal power level in 7th.

I don't have a BA codex, but is there no way to take force on a jump pack infantry model? being fast is sorta their thing.

And i will concede force is the weaker option, i am just struggling to see how 3 grav cents with gran cannon grav amps, putting out 15 shots, hitting 10, wounding on 2+ rerolling 1s fails to cause 5 unsaved wounds.

Bharring wrote:
There was a very worthwhile post in another thread here about how some - like Martel and I - are "stuck in 3rd Ed", when it comes to the nastier stuff these days (I never played 3rd).

The core concept I felt was more that we're looking at different ideal levels.

For levels, there seems to be a "7.5" level and a "7.0" level (among others). The problem comes from Tau in general and the Riptide specifically are way OP at the "7.0" level, but are about even, or possibly even a little short, at the "7.5" level.

So Martel (and I, among others), argue in relation to one level, and others argue in relation to another level. Naturally, both groups could be correct simultaneously. But the base is different, and people don't realize, so both sides often can't understand how the other side can be so stupid.

Personally, I like the "7.0" level more. But others may like "7.5" more. Me saying the Riptide is OP, in reference to "7.0", isn't necessarily wrong just because it isn't OP at the "7.5" level (and Vica versa)

This sums up entirely how I feel abou the game right now

My Wrathlord tried to come hang out with you Carnifexes and Penitent Engines. But a wild WK appeared, killed them both, and went on its way before he could.

Now he just wanders around the battlefield, lonely, looking for somebody to hug.

 pumaman1 wrote:
I don't have a BA codex, but is there no way to take force on a jump pack infantry model? being fast is sorta their thing.

And i will concede force is the weaker option, i am just struggling to see how 3 grav cents with gran cannon grav amps, putting out 15 shots, hitting 10, wounding on 2+ rerolling 1s fails to cause 5 unsaved wounds.

It's mostly due to the 5++ invul (or a 4++ cover...it can sit on the best cover and fire across the board barring LoS blocking stuff) and the 5+ FnP. It's not a lit, it lives by 1, but considering that the grav cents are the best counter for it, it says a lot that it still lives.

Force weapons on jump packs are a thing, but 12" plus running still means you're looking at T3/4 charges against it barring deep strike. You'll be moving 48" plus the 4 runs and then need to be in charge range...it can still move out of the way unless your whole army survives. Turn 3 is 36 plus 2 runs and then the charge distance...lot less likely.

. Remember, it can sit in excellent cover or way far back depending. Having the rip tide fire for 4 turns (usually, unless you have bikes) means it's most likely earning it's points and the damage is done. It needs to die by T2, 3 at the latest. Melee can rarely do that, certainly not BA melee.

... And then either wound on 4s at AP4, or wound on 5s with AP2 at I1...

That's no guarantee of a dead Riptide even if it panned out.

Bharring wrote:
... And then either wound on 4s at AP4, or wound on 5s with AP2 at I1...

That's no guarantee of a dead Riptide even if it panned out.

I'll confess I'm not well versed in the BA melee abilities since it rarely comes up outside of DC (who don't have force weapons).
Does Mephiston have one? Is he better at killing it? Not saying he would get there, but I would think he has better than even odds unless he's AP 3

Bharring wrote:
There was a very worthwhile post in another thread here about how some - like Martel and I - are "stuck in 3rd Ed", when it comes to the nastier stuff these days (I never played 3rd).

The core concept I felt was more that we're looking at different ideal levels.

For levels, there seems to be a "7.5" level and a "7.0" level (among others). The problem comes from Tau in general and the Riptide specifically are way OP at the "7.0" level, but are about even, or possibly even a little short, at the "7.5" level.

So Martel (and I, among others), argue in relation to one level, and others argue in relation to another level. Naturally, both groups could be correct simultaneously. But the base is different, and people don't realize, so both sides often can't understand how the other side can be so stupid.

Personally, I like the "7.0" level more. But others may like "7.5" more. Me saying the Riptide is OP, in reference to "7.0", isn't necessarily wrong just because it isn't OP at the "7.5" level (and Vica versa)

this pretty much nails it. For a pre-2015 army, riptides could do with some toning down. For post Necron armies, well, balance has largely been a nonexistent concept as each new book attempts to see how much more it can break than the last book...and balance in general is pretty irrelevant because it simply does not exist.

Well its terrifying ws 2, its gotta get 5's to hit back, so bring the ap2

And you can try for divination, getting perfect timing which ignores cover, or a large number of helpful abilities. heck the primaris prescience isn't terrible.

It's good, granted. But that makes up for crisis suits being 2 SM being glued together, with worse BS, WS, and I. and generally costing more points. versatile, but fragile. JSJ is only so good if the player is actually following the dangerous terrain tests when they enter or leave terrain using it.

I think your best bet may be psykers here. The last few times I've faced Riptides it was with Harlequins. Fairly similar situation, fast melee focused army that hates high strength low AP weaponry without very good means to handle MCs at range.

Psychic Shriek and force weaponry are a pretty good answer to Riptides and similar MCs. Their leadership value is quite mediocre, tau have no psykers to boost DTW rolls, and if I'm not wrong the BA can have a deep striking psyker dread who has access to Telepathy (just checked the 7th FAQ, they do seem to have it).

Also a nice source of ignores-cover in an army that's somewhat lacking in it.

That's probably the point The_Scotsman, where tau players are most tired of hearing complaints about things. We mostly stand by and watch the psychic phase as bad things happen to us, or good things happen to you (not every time yes, but usually), then you shoot us decently with SM based armies, and then you can punch the crap out of us as well.. and if you get first turn, i probably don't have many/any markerlights left to boost my army wide bs3 in a meaningful way.
yes we have good synergy, and if fire focuses on riptides first before markerlight sources, yeah we can do some dandy tricks (especially with hunter contingent). and the OSC is crazy, just friggen dumb. But we are never going to feel confidently (eldar) OP.

he is really nasty but there are worse models in the game

Psychic phase only REALLY matters to three factions.

Daemons, Eldar, and Librarus Conclave.

Grey Knights don't have that amazing of a psychic phase out of assault, WHICH DOESN'T MATTER. All that is happening again is Tau players feeling sorry for themselves AGAIN.

The only time you will see a Riptide reliably killed by a force weapon is if it is a Dreadknight holding it.