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Let me start off by saying, yes I am late to the party & also that I am happy for space wolves players. I think its very cool the wulfen are returning & I very much expect to see them fielded by most space wolves players.

That said...

I'm looking at the rules for the wulfen here, which essentially are terminators on roids & then I look at units like Ogryn/Bullgryn/Ork Nobs & I don't even. Basically just about every special rule the wulfen have should be standard in the ork codex or at the very least be on most nobs, but also when looking at the point cost its just insane. The base cost of bullgryn for example is about the same as fully upgraded wolfen, yet lack the lethality, any good special rules & must be assigned a baby sitter (commissar etc), just to make the unit functional which bloats their cost even more.

Yes I am aware that IG have a plethora of allies at their disposal, however IG players shouldn't be forced to take allies to be a competitive army. I'm aware GW is a "modeling" company & thus rules/balance are no longer their concern but surely sales are? Pretty much every IG player I know does not use Ogryn/Bullgryn for example because of their point cost/lack of effectiveness. So I guess my question is...how does GW go about determining rules/point values when making new units like the wulfen? Do they just throw darts at a wall or do they cross reference points between other armies or what?

Well Ogryn are older rules. Wulfen are hot, new and they need to sell models.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
Well Ogryn are older rules. Wulfen are hot, new and they need to sell models.

You're correct, but Ogryns/Bullgryns just came out with new models just a year or two ago as well. They actually look surprising well. Their rules however, never really saw a revision.

I'm just trying to figure out how they can explain this disparity. I'm not saying Ogryn/Bullgryns should be able to go toe to toe with wulfen but when they cost more points per model, are basically the dedicated counter assault unit in the codex, they should bring something to the table.

Commissar Benny wrote:
Let me start off by saying, yes I am late to the party & also that I am happy for space wolves players. I think its very cool the wulfen are returning & I very much expect to see them fielded by most space wolves players.

That said...

I'm looking at the rules for the wulfen here, which essentially are terminators on roids & then I look at units like Ogryn/Bullgryn/Ork Nobs & I don't even. Basically just about every special rule the wulfen have should be standard in the ork codex or at the very least be on most nobs, but also when looking at the point cost its just insane. The base cost of bullgryn for example is about the same as fully upgraded wolfen, yet lack the lethality, any good special rules & must be assigned a baby sitter (commissar etc), just to make the unit functional which bloats their cost even more.

Yes I am aware that IG have a plethora of allies at their disposal, however IG players shouldn't be forced to take allies to be a competitive army. I'm aware GW is a "modeling" company & thus rules/balance are no longer their concern but surely sales are? Pretty much every IG player I know does not use Ogryn/Bullgryn for example because of their point cost/lack of effectiveness. So I guess my question is...how does GW go about determining rules/point values when making new units like the wulfen? Do they just throw darts at a wall or do they cross reference points between other armies or what?

Yeah, I did some MathHammer, and it's sad how the Nobz fare. Really sad :( (and that wasn't even taking into account the second attack if they are killed). Wulfen are also a lot more resistant since you can put 2 or 3 of them with Storm Shiled in the front to tank hits. They are also a lot faster, boost allies and more versatile.

The 2xFrostClaws make them specially absurd, second attack when killed shouldn't work vs I.D. or D Weapon. And they still would be very good.

What make the whole thing even more ridiculous is that in 7ed Ork codex, they nerfed the Nobz by removing 5++ option for them. Yet, they make c.c. beasts like the wulfen and lychguard soon after

Though I do like that cybork body gives FNP now instead of invul. (invul. didn't felt very orky imo), it should be FNP 5+ and Nobz should still be allowed to take it. And they would still suck lol.

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Let me start off by saying, yes I am late to the party & also that I am happy for space wolves players. I think its very cool the wulfen are returning & I very much expect to see them fielded by most space wolves players.

That said...

I'm looking at the rules for the wulfen here, which essentially are terminators on roids & then I look at units like Ogryn/Bullgryn/Ork Nobs & I don't even. Basically just about every special rule the wulfen have should be standard in the ork codex or at the very least be on most nobs, but also when looking at the point cost its just insane. The base cost of bullgryn for example is about the same as fully upgraded wolfen, yet lack the lethality, any good special rules & must be assigned a baby sitter (commissar etc), just to make the unit functional which bloats their cost even more.

Yes I am aware that IG have a plethora of allies at their disposal, however IG players shouldn't be forced to take allies to be a competitive army. I'm aware GW is a "modeling" company & thus rules/balance are no longer their concern but surely sales are? Pretty much every IG player I know does not use Ogryn/Bullgryn for example because of their point cost/lack of effectiveness. So I guess my question is...how does GW go about determining rules/point values when making new units like the wulfen? Do they just throw darts at a wall or do they cross reference points between other armies or what?

Yeah, I did some MathHammer, and it's sad how the nobz fare. Really sad :( (and that wasn't even taking into account the second attack if they are killed). Wulfen are also a lot more resistant since you can put 2 or 3 of them with Storm Shiled in the front to tank hits.

The 2xFrostClaws make them specially absurd, second attack shouldn't work vs I.D. or D Weapon. And they still would be very good.

What make the whole thing even more ridiculous is that in 7ed Ork codex, they nerfed the Nobz by removing 5++ option for them. Yet, they make c.c. beasts like the wulfen in lychguard soon after

Though I do like that cybork body gives FNP now instead of invul. (invul. didn't felt very orky imo), it should be FNP 5+ and Nobz should still be allowed to take it. And they would still suck lol.

My brother plays Orks & yes nobz definitely need a revision/large buff. Honestly the ork codex as a whole needs a large revision & units like Ghaz need massive buffs. Again, I like wulfen & I am super happy for space wolves players but with units with their lethality on the table units like nobz shouldn't be the equivalent of grots.

Eh, the Ogryns have been bad since late 5th. They suffer from a plethora of problems (too expensive, crappy leadership, tissue paper armour, etc) whilst Bullgryns suffer from having the armour and rules that Ogryns need but being even more expensive.
Still, these new 'wolfen' have put me off facing Space Wolves for a while now.

Eh. You really want to see how bad the gap is now between the have's vs. have-nots, Wulfen are absolutely everything we could only wish Possessed could ever be!

Or better yet, a base Wulfen costs the same amount of pts as a Warptalon.

"terminators on roids"

...... what?

unless I'm missing something they are expensive 2-wound models with a 4+ armor save and FNP. Yeah, you can buy them storm shields, but then again, that ups their cost massively, and by that point they are just costly marines with FNP.

If you give them a TH/SS they're basically the same cost as Terminators and be basically the same gameplay wise (their FnP actually makes the 3++ close to a 2+ armor save) but have a bunch of extra rules that the Terminators don't have (like more wounds, more strength, run and charge, etc).

The wulfen are criminally undercosted for what they do. It doesn't help that if the CotGW is still legal, you can spam an army of these guys backed by thunderwolves.

However since they totally would fit me using skullcrushers and wrathmongers, I am totally jumping on the fondue wagon on the way to the gravy train. Self respect is so far out the window it's sending me postcards from hawaii.

I don't see them beeing any better or even filling any other niche to thunderwolves unless sw get a cheap assault transport or a cheezy formation with wulfen. Or can become troops. In this case, they rock.

As for wulfen against nobz, possessed and ogryns, yep, they're clearly superior for no good reason.

Well with the Iron Priest moving to HQ, they would become the next premier slot-filler for CotGW since they can keep pace with the Thunderwolves.

Are they troops?

CotGW detachment has elites as the minimum requirement.

currently, unless you want rifleman dreads, the Wulfen outperforms almost everything else in that slot.

Well, in this case, yep. They're basically slower twc that dislike s8+ instead of s10. But are better vs grav.

Yeah, the new Wulfen are pretty broken. But that's GW's new thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Well, in this case, yep. They're basically slower twc that dislike s8+ instead of s10. But are better vs grav.

Except with better abilities. They give good bonuses to all units within 12(?)", come stock with FNP, can swing at Initiative the turn they charge with their Thunder Hammer, and as soon as they die, they get to pile in and attack.

Wulfen aren't broken. It is just the other units people have listed (Possessed, Nobs, Ogryns, Terminators, etc) aren't even worth using in the first place. It isn't like Wulfen existing made those units bad...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wulfen aren't broken. It is just the other units people have listed (Possessed, Nobs, Ogryns, Terminators, etc) aren't even worth using in the first place. It isn't like Wulfen existing made those units bad...

Which begs the question:

What metric does GW use when making rules for these models? Like do they consider units stat line/special rules/point cost in other armies that share the same role or are relatively similar to create some sort of balance or do they just do whatever?

For example:

Bullgryns

* Completely new unit/models
* Terrible rules
* No one buys/uses them

Wulfen

* Completely new unit/models
* Incredible rules
* Every SW player buys them & uses them/More players buy SW armies

Just not understanding the logic from either a marketing or player standpoint.

Been like that for ages though Benny. I dont get it either but am developing a theory GWs rules writers are being outsourced to different people/writers, hence the bizarre inconsistencies.

Commissar Benny wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wulfen aren't broken. It is just the other units people have listed (Possessed, Nobs, Ogryns, Terminators, etc) aren't even worth using in the first place. It isn't like Wulfen existing made those units bad...

Which begs the question:

What metric does GW use when making rules for these models? Like do they consider units stat line/special rules/point cost in other armies that share the same role or are relatively similar to create some sort of balance or do they just do whatever?

For example:

Bullgryns

* Completely new unit/models
* Terrible rules
* No one buys/uses them

Wulfen

* Completely new unit/models
* Incredible rules
* Every SW player buys them & uses them/More players buy SW armies

Just not understanding the logic from either a marketing or player standpoint.

Welcome to GW. If it is a flavour of Space Marines it gets all the buffs.
Oh, and throw the balance out the window, you wont be needing it.

Ironically, in my first game against the new wolfy dudes, I ended up killing them with Nobz. 5-man nob squad with a single Kombi Scorcha wiped a 7-man wulfen squad with axes after they hopped out a plane and blew up a looted wagon.

Tbh though, just because existing melee units are costed ridiculously poorly doesn't mean all have to be. If the wulfen work well great now GW has a template.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Welcome to GW. If it is a flavour of Space Marines it gets all the buffs.

I get that you're joking, but seriously? Ignoring that Necrons, Tau, and Eldar are all generally better all around, is this based off of the fact that people love to whine? I mean, we never hear the end of it from BA players, but obviously, it's GW only pandering to SM players.

Yeah saying its all SM love dosent explain WKs, Decurion, Wraiths, jetbikes, Rips, Surges etc etc ad nauseum.

Space Marines actually didn't get as much buffs as they did in 5th edition. Granted, they are stronger, but a lot of the xeno races have been much more powerful. This is probably because everyone, their mothers and their kids all have space marines now, and the company wants people to buy stuff that they don't have.

Also most people complain about Possessed because the Wulfen Stats look very much like the Gal Vorbak from 30k, which were the proto-possessed and arguably the only version of the Possessed that weren't completely useless. As a Chaos Player, I do feel a little bit robbed (which is why I'm using proxies now :3 Rob the rules back).

EDIT: Also Ogryn's weakness is due to it still being roughly stuck in the past, where 40k was Warhammer Fantasy IN SPACE. Big, multi-wound units with high strength but no weapons are useful in old fantasy because they could still ignore armor (since armor modifiers were based on strength) and didn't die as easily as you never suffer flat out instant death, but usually D3 wounds. Lacking both of those, Ogryns and other such models seem horrible since for a comparable cost you can get something that won't die horribly to common weapons and eat a chunk of your points. Ogryns need something like Rending and a form of transport to be decent, since they're a CC unit that have no CC buffs and no method of catching prey. That or give them the possibility of infinite attacks. Because when in doubt drown them in attacks.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
EDIT: Also Ogryn's weakness is due to it still being roughly stuck in the past, where 40k was Warhammer Fantasy IN SPACE. Big, multi-wound units with high strength but no weapons are useful in old fantasy because they could still ignore armor (since armor modifiers were based on strength) and didn't die as easily as you never suffer flat out instant death, but usually D3 wounds. Lacking both of those, Ogryns and other such models seem horrible since for a comparable cost you can get something that won't die horribly to common weapons and eat a chunk of your points. Ogryns need something like Rending and a form of transport to be decent, since they're a CC unit that have no CC buffs and no method of catching prey. That or give them the possibility of infinite attacks. Because when in doubt drown them in attacks.

Feel no pain would be nice.. S6 maybe... 4+ Armour base (Because ogryns wear bloody slabs of chimeras for feth's sake) with 3+ save on Bullgryns (because more chimera bits) and then up that to a 2+ with slab shields. Ogryns/Bullgryns are useful again.

I say keep the 5+ armor (they're literally wearing undershirts with maybe one shoulder pad) but give them a 4+ feel no pain to show their thick-skinned-ness. I agree on the 3+ save for "naked" bullgryns though, and possibly something like the Deathwing Knight's shieldwall ability (where grouping together they get +1 toughness. If they already do this I apologize, I don't play AM and just skim the book).

Also I think the bruteshield should also function as a Power Fist. I'd imagine being punched by one isn't a pleasant experience and Ogryns are definitely creative enough to actually use it in that fashion.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I say keep the 5+ armor (they're literally wearing undershirts with maybe one shoulder pad) but give them a 4+ feel no pain to show their thick-skinned-ness. I agree on the 3+ save for "naked" bullgryns though, and possibly something like the Deathwing Knight's shieldwall ability (where grouping together they get +1 toughness. If they already do this I apologize, I don't play AM and just skim the book).

Also I think the bruteshield should also function as a Power Fist. I'd imagine being punched by one isn't a pleasant experience and Ogryns are definitely creative enough to actually use it in that fashion.

Bullgryns can also get Power mauls and 5+ invuln shields, which is why I suggested the S6. Hell, you let them take autocannons (like FFG wants) and watch out when your super durable heavy weapon squad rolls around...

I was thinking more of the AP2. Or maybe change their mauls into "Shock Mauls" that does Concussive and has +3 strength.

@MechaEmperor7000

I Created these for a Lost and Damned fandex, but that's how I would improve Ogryns. Their chainswords gives them the speical rule rending while the stubber is now a 4/2 salvo weapon with otherwise the same profile. The Wyrm tank is basicaly a cheaper less armored Battlewagon.

Ironclad Ogres WS: 4, BS: 3, S: 5, T: 5, W: 3, I: 3, A: 4, Ld: 6, Sv: 3+ pts: 42
Ironcald Champion: WS: 4, BS: 3, S: 5, T: 5, W: 3, I: 3, A: 5, Ld: 7, Sv: 3+

equipment: grafted armor, twin-linked heavy stubber, massive two-handed chainswords

Special rules: Hatred (imperium), Stubborn, furious charge, relentless, hammer of wrath, fear, very bulky, Champion of Chaos (Ironclad Champion only)

Unit composition: 3 to 15

Option:

the band can take one of the following Mark: Mark of Khorn (5 pts), Mark of Nurgle (10 pts), Mark of Tzeentch (5 pts), Mark of Slaanesh (5 pts), Mark of Chaos Undivided (3 pts)

If the band has taken a Mark, it can take an icon of the same god for the following cost: Icon of Khorn (5 pts), Icon of Nurgle (5 pts), Icon of Tzeentch (10 pts), Icon of Slaanesh (15 pts)

Any band member can exchange his Massive two handed chainsword for a pair of Massive Chain axe for free

One member of the band can be upgraded to an Ironclad Champion for (8 pts)

The Ironclad Champion can replace it's massive two-handed chainsword for an evicerator chain sword for (10pts)

For every three Ironclad Ogres including the Ironclad Champion, one member can exchange his twin-linked heavy stubber for one of the following: reaper autocanon (15 pts), twin-linked lascanon (25 pts), twin-linked heavy flamer (15 pts)

The Ironclad Ogre squad can take a Wyrm or a Chimera armoed transport [/spoiler]

 jreilly89 wrote:
Yeah, the new Wulfen are pretty broken. But that's GW's new thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Well, in this case, yep. They're basically slower twc that dislike s8+ instead of s10. But are better vs grav.

Except with better abilities. They give good bonuses to all units within 12(?)", come stock with FNP, can swing at Initiative the turn they charge with their Thunder Hammer, and as soon as they die, they get to pile in and attack.

Interesting that 2/3 of the reasons you listed for why they're OP were...wrong, at least partially.

Wulfen give their Curse to any SW unit within 6", outside a transport. 12" for Blood Claws Skyclaws and Swiftclaws.

They can't swing their TH at initiative on the charge. They swing their axe on the charge at initiative.

Your options for Wulfen are basically 1) buy a 250 point transport for a minimum 150 point glass cannon assault unit.

2) buy a plane, get on the board turn 3 at the earliest

3) try to hoof it, risk getting shot to pieces.

Generally if you have a thing and lasguns will reliably kill it, there's only so OP it can be.

the_scotsman wrote:
Ironically, in my first game against the new wolfy dudes, I ended up killing them with Nobz. 5-man nob squad with a single Kombi Scorcha wiped a 7-man wulfen squad with axes after they hopped out a plane and blew up a looted wagon.

Tbh though, just because existing melee units are costed ridiculously poorly doesn't mean all have to be. If the wulfen work well great now GW has a template.

Well, the axe aren't as OP as the frostclaw and storm shield. Still, wiping out a 7 man wulfen squad with 5 nobz is highly unlikely. You must have rolled like a god (and you're opponent like a scrub lol) for it to happen.