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I would like start play bolt action. I want play some veteran army. What do you think about this list?


HQ:
-second lieutenant (veteran) 65pts
-1 additional man (Assault Rifle) 13pts

Troops:
-7 Fallschirmjäger (1 SMG, 3 AR, 1 Panzerfaust) 114pts
-7 Fallschirmjäger (3 AR, 1 Panzerfaust) 111pts
-7 Fallschirmjäger (3 AR, 1 Panzerfaust) 111pts
-6 Assault Engineers Squad: (5 Smg, 1 FT) 113pts

Infantry Support:
-sniper team (regular) 50pts
-Medium Mortar (regular) 50pts

Artillery:
-105mm LG40/1 (regular) 70pts

Vehicles:
-SDKFZ 234/2 Puma (regular) 160pts
-Panzer II Ausf L 'Luchs' (regular) 115

Transport:
-Heavy field car (regural) 27pts

Order Dice: 11

Points: 999

Pretty beefy FJ list at 1,000 points, I like it!

I'm not sure about the game, but Fallschirmjäger platoons didn't have arty or armor. That was the Fallschirmjäger's major drawback, that they had no real heavy weapons. They were easily overrun by tank assaults. Fallschirmjäger were heavy on infantry firepower with 3 snipers and 10+ MGs/SMGs per platoon, compared to 10-ish BAR/LMGs in a US platoon.

Again, the basic game mechanic might dictate that you MUST have some arty and/or armor to be viable in a game, but it's not "fluffy" at all. Which, imo, why play an historical game if you're not going to be historical?



Ghidorah

To be fair, towards the end of the war they where frequently deployed as ground troops and thus would have had armour support.

Fallschirmjager did have artillery as well - 105mm and 150mm recoilless artillery pieces where developed for them and the Panzerbusche squeeze bore 28mm anti tank gun was also developed for them as was an air deployable PAK 36 37mm anti tank gun.

 master of ordinance wrote:
To be fair, towards the end of the war they where frequently deployed as ground troops and thus would have had armour support.

Firstly, a little correction, Fallschirmjäger were almost always deployed as elite ground troops. They only jumped from planes in the early-mid war and they didn't have as many jumps as people assume. Just like our Airborne didn't actually jump from planes very often and not at all before D-Day. Fallschirmjäger were not used in a jump assault capacity after the Italian campaign. Crete or, possibly, Monte Cassino was the Fallschirmjäger's last use of deployment via para jumps.

As for having armor support, no, not really. Now, they may have found themselves in a supporting role to the Wehrmacht, which would quite possibly include some armor, but they had none of their own. They did lug around some PaK36 guns (mostly towed by horse), possibly slightly larger caliber, I don't know, but they had very, very little AT weaponry and no armor or arty. In fact, alot of those PaK36s were the short barreled variants and best used with HE as anti-infantry. Now then, did they ever have some large guns nearby that they were able to call in for support? Sure, probably. I can't imagine that they NEVER had any arty support in radio range, but there's no artillery assigned to the actual Fallschirmjäger. Not that I've ever seen, anyway.

Fallschirmjäger SS may have had some rag tag spattering of a tank or two plopped into some assaulting forces, since pretty much ALL SS forces were spoiled rotten, but there were none on paper in a force organization.

Like I said before, as elite as Fallschirmjäger were, as armed to the teeth with the best infantry weapons the Germans had to offer, their Achilles Heel was always armored forces. They had next to nothing to answer tanks with.

As far as his list goes, the Pz.II and Puma are out of place. Even the mortar was a regular army support weapon, as I recall. Fallschirmjäger support was based on LMG/MMG, Snipers, and STG 44s. Also the Vampir night fighting system was a Fallschirmjäger debut. Those STG 44s with those gigantic Vampir scopes on them were so cool looking.


Ghidorah

Actually...

The Fallschirmjäger did a number of jumps late war.

Leros, Bordeaux and Strosser in the Ardennes are three. A couple more as well. FJ-SS jumped at Drvar. There were no jumps at Monte Cassino.

While the Luchs and Puma are a little out of place, two quite rare vehicles that served in specific formations, several FJ divisions did possess some wheeled recce units and of course then there is the FJ StuG battalions. FJ divisions also received Marder SPGs as they became a largely ground based force.FJ units had plenty of AT defence with Pak38, Pak40 to be found in the Panzerjager companies, along with tank hunting teams equipped with Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck. They could also be supported by heavier guns and FJ had some Pak43 and of course the 88mm Flak 36. Plus plenty of lighter flak too.

Issue of assault rifles was a very rare thing in FJ units, and the FG42 was rarer still, but they did crop up after autumn 44. They didn't really like the StG44 as it added another different round to the supply chain, something they took very seriously due to their inherent nature at being a force often lacking in supply.

The recoiless guns were 75mm and 105mm in calibre. They did possess an air droppable 150mm crated rocket, which was used on Crete but it was not of much use. Many divisions were issued standard artillery later in war as they deployed in a ground role.

Allied Airborne also undertook a number of jump operations well before D-Day. The first British jump being in 1941.

Oh and as I'm in rivet mode, Wehrmacht means 'Armed Forces'. They would have fought with Heer (Army) Panzer formations on many occasions and were often attached to divisions in direct support. In the Ardennes they operated supported by King Tigers...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, just on the Vampyr...

I believe the Zielgerät 1229 or Vampyr IR system was first used in February 1945 by grenadiers from Panzer Division Muncheburg supporting IR equipped Panthers (all six of them...) and only 310 sets were ever issued.

They were very poor devices, as were the tank versions, and users complained of the weight and the 15 minute battery life.

Big P wrote:
The Fallschirmjäger did a number of jumps late war.

Leros, Bordeaux and Strosser in the Ardennes are three. A couple more as well. FJ-SS jumped at Drvar. There were no jumps at Monte Cassino.

I respectfully disagree, sir. While I did forget about the ill-fated Bulge jump, Leros, Greece was still not late-war. I mean, it was part of the whole Italian campaign. FJ were at Monte Cassino. They may or may not have jumped in, but I thought they had.

Big P wrote:
FJ divisions also received Marder SPGs as they became a largely ground based force.FJ units had plenty of AT defence with Pak38...along with tank hunting teams equipped with Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck. They could also be supported by heavier guns and FJ had some Pak43 and of course the 88mm Flak 36.

I would need to see some documentation on this. They never had "plenty of AT defence." The odd Marder assignment would fall under the bit about rag-tag additions that I mentioned before. The 'foust and 'schreck would fall under my statement that they had a dearth of AT. I didn't say they had none, just that they had little.

Big P wrote:
Issue of assault rifles was a very rare thing in FJ units, and the FG42 was rarer still, but they did crop up after autumn 44. They didn't really like the StG44 as it added another different round to the supply chain, something they took very seriously due to their inherent nature at being a force often lacking in supply.

Nobody liked them. That's why there weren't very many. They were definitely used more in other branches.

Big P wrote:
Allied Airborne also undertook a number of jump operations well before D-Day. The first British jump being in 1941.

Just for a minor correction, I said US, not Allied.

Big P wrote:
They would have fought with Heer (Army) Panzer formations on many occasions and were often attached to divisions in direct support. In the Ardennes they operated supported by King Tigers...

Again, for clarification, "fighting with" and "attached to" means that THEY were supporting Heer/other. No Panzer formations were FJ units. FJ fighting with other branches that have tanks is not what I was saying. I was saying that FJ never had tanks as standard organization. Which they didn't. King Tigers supported FJ in the Ardennes in that they were fighting in the Ardennes, while the SS King Tigers were fighting in the Ardennes. They weren't FJ Tiger IIs.

Big P wrote:
I believe the Zielgerät 1229 or Vampyr IR system was first used in February 1945 by grenadiers from Panzer Division Muncheburg supporting IR equipped Panthers...They were very poor devices, as were the tank versions, and users complained of the weight and the 15 minute battery life.

Truth. I was mistaken about FJ using them. First real night-fighting system, I love how they look, and let's not forget the lovely UHU.


Ghidorah

Leros was November 1943... hardly early war really. Bordeaux and Drvar were in 44.

Depends if you call StuGs Panzers... but they had Fallschirm-Sturmgeschutz-Brigaden.

As for AT defence...

KStN 8161 (L) 14. Panzerjäger-Kompanie eines Fallschirmjäger Regiments:

5 officers, 177 NCOs and enlisted men
92 rifles
12 rifles with sniper scopes
48 pistols
34 machine pistols
12 Kampfpistole (a hand held weapon capable of firing signal flares, smoke, HE, AT rounds etc.)
12 rifles with grenade launchers
12 light machine-guns (MG42s or MG34s)
12 7.5 cm anti-tank guns (usually PAK 40s)
6 Personenkraftwagen (personnel carriers e.g., Kfz 70)
9 Lastkraftwagen (load and equipment carriers e.g., 3 ton trucks)
16 trailers
9 motorcycles
20 Sonstige Kraftfahrzeuge "other vehicles" e.g., leichte Zugkraftwagen 3t (Sdkfz 11), unarmoured half track tractors to tow guns, transport crews etc.

There was another type of Panzerjäger-Kompanie: KStN 8153a (L), which I am not as clear on, but it appeared to be similar to the above unit except that it had 6 officers and 225 men, because it had an additional Panzer-Zerstörer-Zug (tank destroyer platoon) with 18 Raketenpanzerbüchsen 54. This larger unit appeared in the 3. and 5. Fallschirmjäger Divisions in the spring of 1944.


First US jump was before D Day too... Sicily.

No armor, no artillery, very little AT. As I've said from the beginning.


Ghidorah


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But I must concede Sicily to you. 82nd. I stand corrected.

I'm not so sure...

Looks reasonably similar to any Heer division... Though a little less artillery.

FJD 1

Order of battle

HQ
- Staff
- Motorcycle Platoon
- Military POlice Detachment (mot)
1. Fallschirmjäger Regiment
- Staff
- Signals Platoon
- Bicycle Platoon
- Pioneer Platoon
- 3 x Fallschirmjäger Battalion
-- Staff
-- Signals Platoon
-- 3 x Company
-- Heavy Company
3. Fallschirmjäger Regiment
- Staff
- Signals Platoon
- Bicycle Platoon
- Pioneer Platoon
- 3 x Fallschirmjäger Battalion
-- Staff
-- Signals Platoon
-- 3 x Company
-- Heavy Company
4. Fallschirmjäger Regiment
- Staff
- Signals Platoon
- Bicycle Platoon
- Pioneer Platoon
- 3 x Fallschirmjäger Battalion
-- Staff
-- Signals Platoon
-- 3 x Company
-- Heavy Company
13. Fallschirmjäger Nebelwerfer Company
14. Fallschirmjäger Panzerjäger Company
1 / 1. Fallschirmjäger Artillery Regiment
- Staff
- Staff Battery
- Signals Platoon
- 3 x Battery
- Supply Column
1. Fallschirmjäger Panzerjäger Battalion
- Staff
- Signals Platoon
- 3 x Battery
1. Fallschirmjäger Pioneer Battalion
- Staff
- Signals Platoon
- 4 x Company
1. Fallschirmjäger Flak Battalion
- Staff
- Signals Platoon (mot)
- 3 x Battery
- 2 x Self propelled Battery
- Supply Column
1. Fallschirmjäger Medical Battalion
- 2 x Company
- Field Hospital
- 3 x Ambulance Company
Supply Troops


Don't forget, the regiments could also field AT guns in the heavy company. FJR6 for example had four Pak40 and 34 Panzerschreck.

FJD 2 was authorised 60 heavy AT guns.

FSB 12 who deployed with FJD3 had an authorised strength of 31 StuGs.

Of course theoretical authorisations and KtsN tables don't give the full picture, but that can be said for any divisional type.

 Ghidorah wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
To be fair, towards the end of the war they where frequently deployed as ground troops and thus would have had armour support.

Firstly, a little correction, Fallschirmjäger were almost always deployed as elite ground troops. They only jumped from planes in the early-mid war and they didn't have as many jumps as people assume. Just like our Airborne didn't actually jump from planes very often and not at all before D-Day. Fallschirmjäger were not used in a jump assault capacity after the Italian campaign. Crete or, possibly, Monte Cassino was the Fallschirmjäger's last use of deployment via para jumps.

As I said if you had read my post

As for having armor support, no, not really. Now, they may have found themselves in a supporting role to the Wehrmacht, which would quite possibly include some armor, but they had none of their own.

They had none of their own but the land battles frequently saw the use of Panzers, meaning that Fallschirmjager did have tank support at times

They did lug around some PaK36 guns (mostly towed by horse), possibly slightly larger caliber, I don't know, but they had very, very little AT weaponry and no armor or arty. In fact, alot of those PaK36s were the short barreled variants and best used with HE as anti-infantry. Now then, did they ever have some large guns nearby that they were able to call in for support? Sure, probably. I can't imagine that they NEVER had any arty support in radio range, but there's no artillery assigned to the actual Fallschirmjäger. Not that I've ever seen, anyway.

They had, as I mentioned before, the Panzerbusche, a specially built AT gun. There are also instances of heavier AT guns being fielded by them
Oh, and Fallschirmjager did have mortars if I recall correctly.

Yes Fallschirmjäger didn't have tank companies, but usually they had support from other formations. In Brittany 2 Fallschimjager Division fought together with 343 Infarteriedivison. 6 Fallschimjager Regiment in Normandy had support 17 SS-Panzergrenadierdivison and 2 SS-Panzer Division


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is link to equip Fallschimjager Divison in Normandy

https://sites.google.com/site/ontariofjr5/articles/article5

The 2.8 cm schwere Panzerbüchse 41 wasnt designed for the FJ specifically, though they used some. Gone by 43 really as they stopped making it and its ammunition. Very limited use after that period.

To the OP, as well as others, my apologies for de-railing this thread. My whole point in the beginning was that the arty and Luchs were out of place for a FJ army.

In this game, these rules, would he be at a major disadvantage if he did not take armor or arty? Is the game, I don't know, unbalanced in that way? Personally, I find it absurd that large caliber arty is even on the board, able to affect that same board. I believe that all big guns should be off-board, unless a scenario requires it; say an assault on a battery of Nebelwerfers on a fortified hill that are pounding targets off-board. I even think 40k arty is out of place in IG lists.

Just my opinion, though.
I think I may have to pick this game up at some point.



Ghidorah

 Ghidorah wrote:
To the OP, as well as others, my apologies for de-railing this thread. My whole point in the beginning was that the arty and Luchs were out of place for a FJ army.

In this game, these rules, would he be at a major disadvantage if he did not take armor or arty? Is the game, I don't know, unbalanced in that way? Personally, I find it absurd that large caliber arty is even on the board, able to affect that same board. I believe that all big guns should be off-board, unless a scenario requires it; say an assault on a battery of Nebelwerfers on a fortified hill that are pounding targets off-board. I even think 40k arty is out of place in IG lists.

Just my opinion, though.
I think I may have to pick this game up at some point.



Ghidorah

And that is why i mainly play 15mm on a 9x7 board.Also if you want to play arty tennis i suggest Flames of War,Better arty rules any how.

 Ghidorah wrote:
To the OP, as well as others, my apologies for de-railing this thread. My whole point in the beginning was that the arty and Luchs were out of place for a FJ army.

In this game, these rules, would he be at a major disadvantage if he did not take armor or arty? Is the game, I don't know, unbalanced in that way? Personally, I find it absurd that large caliber arty is even on the board, able to affect that same board. I believe that all big guns should be off-board, unless a scenario requires it; say an assault on a battery of Nebelwerfers on a fortified hill that are pounding targets off-board. I even think 40k arty is out of place in IG lists.

Just my opinion, though.
I think I may have to pick this game up at some point.



Ghidorah

Not really, though the Artillery and Tank are both nice to have around. His infantry and weapon teams can quite easily hold down the fort on their own.

 Ghidorah wrote:
As for having armor support, no, not really.

The only example of actual "organic" Fallschirmjäger armor I'm aware of (not counting things like Goring's "Fallschirm-Panzer-Division") was a limited use of Fallschirmjäger crewed Marders. I can't dig up the references to the specific battle(s) that they were involved in, but googling "Fallschirmjäger Marder" turns up a number of period photos of obvious Fallschirmjäger operating Marder self propelled guns.

Now, they may have found themselves in a supporting role to the Wehrmacht, which would quite possibly include some armor, but they had none of their own.

I believe this is what the Bolt Action Fallschirmjäger army list is attempting to portray, Heer support for regular Fallschirmjäger units.

They did lug around some PaK36 guns (mostly towed by horse), possibly slightly larger caliber, I don't know, but they had very, very little AT weaponry and no armor or arty.

Aside from the recoilless guns mentioned by someone else, I believe they did employ the 7.5 cm GebG 36 mountain gun. I don't recall if these were ever air dropped of air delivered, though? I'm sure in the latter part of the war when they were more typically deployed alongside regular infantry units, I would imagine Heer artillery or AT guns support would not have been unusual.

Even the mortar was a regular army support weapon, as I recall.

I've seen plenty of period photos of Fallschirmjäger operating light and medium mortars, and the sort of parachute canisters they used to deliver their MG34 during airborne operations could certainly have done the same with a mortar.

 Ghidorah wrote:
In this game, these rules, would he be at a major disadvantage if he did not take armor or arty?

Bolt Action is primarily an infantry based game. It does however include the option to include limited armor in almost every list. The OPs list would be at a significant disadvantage if his opponent brought an American Sherman, a British Cromwell or a Russian T-34. I prefer to play it without throwing anything heavier than perhaps an armored car into the mix, but in a tournament of even open gaming situation the OP does indeed need to be able to deal with tanks.

Personally, I find it absurd that large caliber arty is even on the board, able to affect that same board.

I agree but a lot of WWII rule sets allow arty on the table just because people like to include the miniatures in their games, rather than just using abstract "off-board" artillery rules. In this case, I would expect that gun to see more use in direct fire than firing one-gun bombardments.

They had artillery, they had StuGs and armoured vehicles and they had heavy AT guns from 43/44.

As for mortars some divisions had the 120, and they had a Fallschirmjäger 80mm mortar configured for drops with a reduced barrel length.

Early war all support guns could be air delivered, generally by loading into the JU52 or slung underneath the aircraft, but a tri-parachute capability existed. The faulty doctrine for early war air delivery is a whole different subject though...


However the Hermann Goring division was not a Fallschirmjäger division. It developed from a state police group under his control. So as Mdauben points out doesnt count.

Big P wrote:
As for mortars some divisions had the 120, and they had a Fallschirmjäger 80mm mortar configured for drops with a reduced barrel length

Ah! The Stummelwerfer! How could I have forgotten that.

However the Hermann Goring division was not a Fallschirmjäger division. It developed from a state police group under his control. So as Mdauben points out doesnt count.

Yes, the name of the Fallschirm-Panzer-Division 1. Hermann Göring was just an attempt to cash in on the reputation of the elite Fallschirmjäger (and a bit of empire building on the part of Göring). They were in almost all ways simply a well equipped armored division under the control of the Luftwaffe instead of the regular army.

Ended up as a panzerkorps by the end...

Had the funky 251 with drop down sides and 20mm flak though...