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I am a bit curious here boys (and girls) -

I took a pretty thorough hobby break for about 2, 2.5 years. I would check in here and there to see the news, but that was about it. When I left, GW seemed to be in free-fall, their reputation was in the garbage can and on a lot of fronts, pretty rightly so.

Coming back in, I look around, they have put out some spectacular models, made starter boxes worth buying, put out a lot of board games with amazing content in the form of 40k compatible minis and pretty decent stand-alone games... re-invigorated the GS Cult, released adeptus mechanicus, progressed the 40k fluff and Warhammer fluff, revived specialist games officially, now recently they have re-engaged the audience on social media AND they are getting back in the tournament scene?

The prices are still high, there is no doubt. Sigmar seems to be having trouble finding it's feet, I think that would be fair to say too... But, it seems they are really pushing to give the audience back the things they missed and wanted, and are reacting fairly quick on majority of fronts now.

So? This new CEO seems to be the kind of guy people were begging for 2 years ago. How do you guys feel about it?

I've said it a couple of times that this is the most positive I've felt about GW in years. Going back to purchasing the Collector's 6th Edition 40k ruleset and finding it invalidated in half the time of any previous release signaled a very downward opinion of GW for me personally, and the issues people had with their products grew increasingly worse over the following years.

The release of Betrayal at Calth seems to represent a dramatic shift. The models are still expensive as you said, but the barrier to entry has been reduced a bit. "Start Collecting" boxes, re-ignition of the Specialist Games (to be seen), talk of organized play even returning- it all points to a company that seems to have finally gotten the lesson.

AOS in general still seems like an albatross that will be difficult to resolve, and I very much doubt it will ever approach the success WHFB had, but I no longer go into a GW news thread and think "oh god, what new horror are they bringing to customers now?"

If they can get a handle on their rules and perhaps tap down some of the insanity in lore and models that's been cropping up (looking at you, Space Wolves), then I'll be very happy with them overall, and will go back to investing in their product.

I don't think GW were in free-fall but then they clearly weren't what they were 5 or even 10 years ago.

I've never really had a bone to pick with GW but there have been positive signs from GW for some time, but they really seem to be ramping things up now.

Next year should be very interesting if/when SGS gets going.

They are on the right track however people need to not get thier hopes up that GW will be releasing amazing rules for AoS or 40k. Expect a simple version of rules for competitve play for AoS. The tournament campaign will likely be very loose rules but hopefully it becomes easy to incorporate it into current tournaments such as ITC. I expect GW to just copy ffg and create a store championship and regional box with swag but with a loose participation ruleset. I don't expect GW to release thier own version of a tourney faq sheet. This would be fine and allow current venues even with seperate

Tough to say. I'm very hopeful, but as you said, prices are still high and the rules still leave a lot to be desired, especially with power creep being so rampant in every new release.

Here's to see what is coming next.

It's a little soon to say they've "re-invigorated GSC" imho

They've extended an olive branch and given some hope, but until they give them a proper dex/list and make them seem loved and not just shoehorned back into the game I'm not ready to start dancing In the streets,

Also, If they ever get round to being bothered to do SOB right and give us some new plastic kits for them then I'll take back all the mean things I've said.

I'm waiting GW...

Excellent, excited for my hobby future. The break after AoS did connect me with games I've only ever put on the "one day" pile. This turn ariund has been super fast IMO considering how quick the behemoth that is GW moves. Damage control, new stuff and should GW do something like White Wolf did for customer reconciliation that'd be sweet. Yeah, positive about GW and more importantly, my hobby.

I don't play the games, I am a painter only, so the models are what is most important to me. That being said though, the vitriol and genuine problems the rules and creep etc had on the general view of GW, combined with other problems, really made for sour discussions in general, and an unfortunate predictability of bad decisions.

I used to be a Mod here, trust me, I saw a very large scope of the negative perception by default lol!

Now though, it seems not so predictable that a bad decision is incoming. My hope is, management will finally realize nice models will sell themselves, good rules keep a major portion of the purchasing audience pleased, increase reputation and can do nothing but help the bottom line. There is no tangible benefit to half-ass rules, if you are gonna do it, do it right. That's my take anyways.

That being said, it has been refreshing to participate in threads not 95% full of posts about how things suck, who unfortunately could accurately predict the suckage in general lol!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CT GAMER wrote:
It's a little soon to say they've "re-invigorated GSC" imho

They've extended an olive branch and given some hope, but until they give them a proper dex/list and make them seem loved and not just shoehorned back into the game I'm not ready to start dancing In the streets,

Also, If they ever get round to being bothered to do SOB right and give us some new plastic kits for them then I'll take back all the mean things I've said.

I'm waiting GW...

They did for me, as a painter or collector that box was more than enough for me to say that they showed some serious love... that being said, point taken that a 40k player may only be cautiously optimistic from a rules front and as is, not enough to make a big dent. For me though... lots and lots of great models I wanted badly enough that I outright created 30 customs 5 years ago when there was no hope in sight.

I'll be a lot happier when the rules are shown the same love and competence that some of these new kits have.

I'm also willing to forgive everything if BFG is re-released, 100% in plastic, with the rules being an exact reprint with the 2010 FAQ rolled in.

I think they've taken some great strides and I hope to see more positive steps. That being said I've never not loved their range of models and I've never held doubts that I would continue to purchase them. Whether I agree or disagree with their conduct I collect the models and play the game as it's the only one I feel really offers more then a skirmish (which I just can't get behind).

Back on the right track? No they are not. Nothing has changed. Starter sets? Pffft. They are just kits they are tyring to get rid of.

Where is the Dwarfs in the starter sets? Where is the Sigmarines in the starter sets? It is all an illusion. GW is still up to it's games. These Starter sets sounded great at first but all I see is a way for GW to get rid of their overstock. If there was was real starter sets, Sigmarnes and all the new releses would be in there as well, not just old product GW wants to get rid off. I guess GW realized they will not get rid of their $100 minis, so throw in a few other minis for free and will sell their over stock now. Getting about 70% instead of 100% is better than 0-20% of what they were selling. No facts just a guess.

GW needs to stop playing games and actually be sincere in wanting to put out an awesome product and experience instead of just making us "suckers" in buying their stuff.

I still buy some of their products, but I still have the "sucker" feeling every time I do. Get rid of the "sucker" feeling and I would be buying so much more.

For me, the real test is how Black Library shapes up in the next few years. Return to MMPBs, finish the Heresy, throw a bone to Fantasy? Then they will truly be back.

That said, all plastic BFG forgives a multitude of sins.

I would say perhaps getting better with regards to some business decisions (giving people what they want! ) Some of the new board games, plastic 30k marines etc.

There's also been a period of less negative press about the company as well, which has probably helped; no lawsuits against authors, small garage companies or trying to close down said companies and websites etc. which had peaked at what became known as the 'summer of terror' (probably what you rmember from a couple of years back MajorTom). No misfires like Finecast either, which was responsible for a hell of the amount of negativity. I think to some extent things have returned to a somewhat more neutral ground since then.

On the other hand the elephant in the room (in terms of deplorable things to do) was the killing off of WHFB. While I can completely understand making a new game in AoS, not continuing support for WHFB in some form (even if it was only a tiny downloads/hobby section on the edge of the website) to cater for the fans that had followed the company from the beginning was a really gakky thing to do. I've seen grown men swallow with a lump in their throat when talking about it (which is some accomplishment, and shows how emotionally connected people can get to their games!) Was it done to force those players who might have remained with WHFB into turning to AoS? If so then it shows a lack of faith in your new product, but in any case that was one of the nastiest moves I have seen, and showed that GW is still very much the 'corporation' in what is otherwise generally a small and personably industry.

What I think has also helped is that there are now enough other games that have reached a 'critical mass' (i.e. last more than a year, you can find a game or club fairly easily) that those who don't like GW's business practices or the games can look elsewhere. I think you used to get a lot of negativity from people who felt they were stuck with playing 40k or WHFB - they wanted to play wargames, paint miniatures, and for a lot of people GW was the only way to do that. It's much easier now, if you don't like the way a game or miniature range has developed, to move sideways onto something else. I remember once a GW-affiliated person commenting "They always come crawling back" about forum negativity. I don't think that's as true these days, customers can pick and choose game affiliation as they see fit, and are therefore less likely to mouth off about it on forums!

So - I think perhaps a 'C' grade now (with 2 weeks detention for the WHFB killing) "improving temprement and has got his avarice under control, has always had the talent but now needs to let that side of his character shine through at the expense of the pure drive for profit margin"

I feel they are improving, but still baby steps. Better than nothing, but there's still the problem of poorly-balanced rules and a very high barrier to entry; the Start Collecting boxes are a good thing (I am very tempted by the Necron one) but doesn't help the problem. The larger problem is that they are still unwilling to consider the game the product and produce things at a reasonable pace (e.g. no waiting a year+ for a codex while a faction that doesn't need a new book gets a new one) and make sure the game is well balanced enough to appeal to everybody.

There's still problems like the rulebook costing $80, a Codex costing $50. No amount of discount via Start Collecting boxes is going to mitigate the fact that if I wanted to start 40k right now with let's say Necrons, I'd need to spend:

$85 (Rules)
$49.50 (Necron Codex)
$85 (Start Collecting: Necrons)

That's almost $220 for a tiny amount of figures that's adequate only for the most basic of 40k games, in part because the rules and required materials are so expensive out of the gate before any miniatures are factored in. That's still a HUGE problem. For $220 I can buy basically an entire army for other game systems (sometimes more than one depending on system). Are those figures as nice as GW's? Doubtful, but I'll get a lot more bang for my buck. In fact, I'd feel stupid and/or dirty spending $220 and getting like 16 figures and two books (well one is a set i.e. rules but still). That's not much.

I won't deny it's minor progress, though.

GW might be on the right track, but it remains to be seen how far they're willing to ride those rails, how much horsepower their engine has, and exactly what is in the railcars that engine is pulling along.

GW has always been good at coming up with great ideas, but has been equally as good at executing those ideas poorly.

I've frequently copped it from the pro GW crowd for being a hater. (But just as frequently disavowed them of this notion, and usually kicked their own arguments square in the nards for good measure.)

However, that's always been a misrepresentation, I've always really wanted them to do well, and I've always been happy to praise where I've felt it's warranted. That I so often get accused of a negative stance is purely a reflection on my feelings of GW's actions, not some fixed view.

Taking all that into account.. maybe?

There's a lot which is encouraging, but, so far, it's all been low hanging fruit, either product releases that were almost guaranteed to sell well and be well received (plastic Heresy, GSC) or simple, low risk, low cost (reinstating global social media.)

40K and Sigmar still remain games I'm not currently excited to play, but I guess spending time nearly every day working on my 30K/CSM force after not touching a brush or glue in months tells its own story?

I won't be happy that a corner has been turned until I see a determined attempt to offer a core game that tries to offer an even contest between players where the majority of the outcome is determined by player agency and not by whatever army book is on the upswing or whoever brings the most broken combo.

But, for now, I'm cautiously optimistic.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I feel they are improving, but still baby steps. Better than nothing, but there's still the problem of poorly-balanced rules and a very high barrier to entry; the Start Collecting boxes are a good thing (I am very tempted by the Necron one) but doesn't help the problem. The larger problem is that they are still unwilling to consider the game the product and produce things at a reasonable pace (e.g. no waiting a year+ for a codex while a faction that doesn't need a new book gets a new one) and make sure the game is well balanced enough to appeal to everybody.

There's still problems like the rulebook costing $80, a Codex costing $50. No amount of discount via Start Collecting boxes is going to mitigate the fact that if I wanted to start 40k right now with let's say Necrons, I'd need to spend:

$85 (Rules)
$49.50 (Necron Codex)
$85 (Start Collecting: Necrons)

That's almost $220 for a tiny amount of figures that's adequate only for the most basic of 40k games, in part because the rules and required materials are so expensive out of the gate before any miniatures are factored in. That's still a HUGE problem. For $220 I can buy basically an entire army for other game systems (sometimes more than one depending on system). Are those figures as nice as GW's? Doubtful, but I'll get a lot more bang for my buck. In fact, I'd feel stupid and/or dirty spending $220 and getting like 16 figures and two books (well one is a set i.e. rules but still). That's not much.

I won't deny it's minor progress, though.

To be fair, if you own a iOS device you can get the codex+rules for $50. Still not much of a help to newcomers or those who don't own one but it's something.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I've frequently copped it from the pro GW crowd for being a hater. (But just as frequently disavowed them of this notion, and usually kicked their own arguments square in the nards for good measure.)

However, that's always been a misrepresentation, I've always really wanted them to do well, and I've always been happy to praise where I've felt it's warranted. That I so often get accused of a negative stance is purely a reflection on my feelings of GW's actions, not some fixed view.

Taking all that into account.. maybe?

There's a lot which is encouraging, but, so far, it's all been low hanging fruit, either product releases that were almost guaranteed to sell well and be well received (plastic Heresy, GSC) or simple, low risk, low cost (reinstating global social media.)

40K and Sigmar still remain games I'm not currently excited to play, but I guess spending time nearly every day working on my 30K/CSM force after not touching a brush or glue in months tells its own story?

I won't be happy that a corner has been turned until I see a determined attempt to offer a core game that tries to offer an even contest between players where the majority of the outcome is determined by player agency and not by whatever army book is on the upswing or whoever brings the most broken combo.

But, for now, I'm cautiously optimistic.

What he said.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I feel they are improving, but still baby steps. Better than nothing, but there's still the problem of poorly-balanced rules and a very high barrier to entry; the Start Collecting boxes are a good thing (I am very tempted by the Necron one) but doesn't help the problem. The larger problem is that they are still unwilling to consider the game the product and produce things at a reasonable pace (e.g. no waiting a year+ for a codex while a faction that doesn't need a new book gets a new one) and make sure the game is well balanced enough to appeal to everybody.

There's still problems like the rulebook costing $80, a Codex costing $50. No amount of discount via Start Collecting boxes is going to mitigate the fact that if I wanted to start 40k right now with let's say Necrons, I'd need to spend:

$85 (Rules)
$49.50 (Necron Codex)
$85 (Start Collecting: Necrons)

That's almost $220 for a tiny amount of figures that's adequate only for the most basic of 40k games, in part because the rules and required materials are so expensive out of the gate before any miniatures are factored in. That's still a HUGE problem. For $220 I can buy basically an entire army for other game systems (sometimes more than one depending on system). Are those figures as nice as GW's? Doubtful, but I'll get a lot more bang for my buck. In fact, I'd feel stupid and/or dirty spending $220 and getting like 16 figures and two books (well one is a set i.e. rules but still). That's not much.

I won't deny it's minor progress, though.

To be fair, if you own a iOS device you can get the codex+rules for $50. Still not much of a help to newcomers or those who don't own one but it's something.

Correct, but that's still a lot to get started, and there's something about having an actual book and not a tablet. I think that's a big thing stopping me right now from choosing to play, beyond the poor quality of the rules. The start collecting box I could easily buy, it's the rulebook and codex that makes the whole prospect off-putting. I can, of course, acquire both in other ways and just pretend I bought the iOS versions, but still.

To put it another way, I could easily go down to my local GW store and pick up a Start Collecting: Necrons box and feel "Hey this is going to be pretty cool". But not when I have to also buy the rules and the codex along with it, then it goes into "I'm spending HOW much??!!"

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I don't play the games, I am a painter only, so the models are what is most important to me. That being said though, the vitriol and genuine problems the rules and creep etc had on the general view of GW, combined with other problems, really made for sour discussions in general, and an unfortunate predictability of bad decisions.

Maybe I'm overly projecting my own feelings onto the community, but I think some what's happened has been a genuine change in GW. Clearly they are altering their strategy, and they seem to be releasing things that people want, which is good. Some of the change in mood here, I think, has been in people drifting away. I used to always warn that people that barely or no longer play showing up in threads to complain isn't the worst thing, because it shows they might come back. When they stop showing up at all, you know you've lost them.

I've been on Dakka a long time, and I feel like I know fewer of the people here than I ever did. I no longer play 40k, and while I like the idea of finishing my 30k Emperor's Children or Praetorian IG, it's because I want to paint them, not because I want to play with them. As I said, it could just be over generalizing my own experience, but based on the sheer number of "is 40k dying in your area" threads that popped up, I think a lot of people finally gave up the ghost on 40k. Obviously WFB players don't have much of a home in GW land either.

So, I think it's a combination of GW making some slightly better moves, and the bad moves from before finally killing off the lingering interest for a lot of bitter folks.

I Want to Believe


I'm willing to accept the odd stumble as this appears to be a genuine desire on GW's part to change but if they balls up the BFG redo there will be rage

They appear to want to turn things around, and are taking steps to do that, but their core game is still a complete mess, with rules on top of rules on top of formations on top of rules on top of more formations, and they continue to raise the prices with each new release (Hobbit prices were nuts, AoS prices are worse).

If they cannot get their core games and pricing in order then all the nostalgic attempts to bring people back, no matter how cool their Genestealer Hybrids are, just won't work.

What?! Model prices continue to rise, White Dwarf still sucks, fantasy is still dead, AoS is still a piece of garbage, still no communication with their fanbase, rules still suck, major 40K armies have horrible codexes making them virtually unplayable, still no market research, no support of local game stores.

Releasing a few "Start collecting" boxes with a minor discount doesn't make up for any of the above.

They did recently come back to Facebook, so welcome to 2007 GW!

 Azreal13 wrote:
I've frequently copped it from the pro GW crowd for being a hater. (But just as frequently disavowed them of this notion, and usually kicked their own arguments square in the nards for good measure.)

However, that's always been a misrepresentation, I've always really wanted them to do well, and I've always been happy to praise where I've felt it's warranted. That I so often get accused of a negative stance is purely a reflection on my feelings of GW's actions, not some fixed view.

Taking all that into account.. maybe?

There's a lot which is encouraging, but, so far, it's all been low hanging fruit, either product releases that were almost guaranteed to sell well and be well received (plastic Heresy, GSC) or simple, low risk, low cost (reinstating global social media.)

40K and Sigmar still remain games I'm not currently excited to play, but I guess spending time nearly every day working on my 30K/CSM force after not touching a brush or glue in months tells its own story?

I won't be happy that a corner has been turned until I see a determined attempt to offer a core game that tries to offer an even contest between players where the majority of the outcome is determined by player agency and not by whatever army book is on the upswing or whoever brings the most broken combo.

But, for now, I'm cautiously optimistic.

You pretty much posted my post before I could post my post....

I am definitely more optimistic than I was at this same time last year - which is not to say that I have no urge to burn Age of Sigmar to the ground....

I will also publicly admit that Rountree is very much not shaping up to be the sock puppet that I had expected, and that this is a good thing.

The Auld Grump - I publicly stated my opinion that Rountree would be a sock puppet, so it is only right that I also retract that expectation publicly.

We wrote:
What?! Model prices continue to rise, White Dwarf still sucks, fantasy is still dead, AoS is still a piece of garbage, still no communication with their fanbase, rules still suck, major 40K armies have horrible codexes making them virtually unplayable, still no market research, no support of local game stores.

Releasing a few "Start collecting" boxes with a minor discount doesn't make up for any of the above.

- Start Collecting (offering a significant discount)
- Producing soft back books (some AOS books have been remarkably cheap for their page count)
- Reinstating social media
- Specialist Games making a comeback
- Product releases advertised ahead of time
- Attempts to reach non hobby customers
- Release of models long wished for
- Selling more "games"

Perhaps "on the right track" means "finished" where you're from, but over here in the UK, I'd say that qualifies as moves in the right direction, there's simply plenty more to do.

Like many others here, I think GW has recognized they can't continue on like they've been doing - but they're still floundering for what they need to do to fix the issues without creating bigger ones.

They've still got a long way to go, but I hope they keep experimenting with branching out and doing new games (or reviving old ones - c'mon Epic!) and look into ways for providing better value for the money (because they aren't dropping prices any time soon).

I think they've made solid changes, and are starting to turn themselves around.

As someone who started the hobby with 40k and Fantasy I'm glad they're turning things around. On the other hand I haven't played a game of 40k in 3-4 years now due to the rapid decline I felt in terms of affordability, product, and rules.

I honestly can't see myself getting back into it now that I have other games that take up my time and money and I've sold all but my favourite army on the off chance I do get back into it.

I think the only thing I would get from them as of right now is the stand alone games, because they look fantastic to be honest.

Although I don't really do anything with GW anymore, I'm glad they seem to be turning it around, as it's a fantastic IP.
I just hope they keep it up and keep making improvements.

Here's a take: https://www.change.org/p/games-workshop-limited-refocus-your-business-model-on-the-sale-of-a-game-and-support-of-a-gaming-community-vice-the-pure-sale-of-collectible-miniatures/u/15879809?recruiter=407482187

A nice summary of recent good things, regardless of why they happened.

Yes. Like others, I am enjoying the hobby now then I have in a long time. 6th was a kick in the balls from GW, and that's when I definitely thought they completely cut ANY contact from the outside. However, looking at sets coming out recently (BaC, Overkill etc) and the organized play rumoured in another thread, GW are looking to getting their act together, and re-establish their contact with the outside, and more importantly, the customers.

All we need now are the return of GW forums
That would be AMAZING