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https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/4/25/defend-the-empire/

Of Note:

Holy. Crap.
Countess Ryad can do GREEN K TURNS AT ALL STRAIGHT SPEEDS (2-5)


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 16:18:42


 
   
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Outflanking

Countess looks like a beast. That is an insanely good ability for just 4 points more than the generic, with boosted PS and an EPT thrown in for good measure. I don't see anyone running Glaive Sq. Pilots with her around.

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Boston


Marek (at that point cost- same as Vessery) is pretty good too!
   
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The Midwest

Apostasus wrote:

Marek (at that point cost- same as Vessery) is pretty good too!


Marksmanship!

lol.

 
   
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Virginia

 House Griffith wrote:
Apostasus wrote:

Marek (at that point cost- same as Vessery) is pretty good too!


Marksmanship!

lol.


It's actually rather viable in this build.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I plan on running the Countess with 2 Glaive pilots. Countess is sooooo awesome, by far one of my favorite pilot abilities, and on one of my favorite Imperial Ships. So stoked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/25 17:22:23


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Calculation is better than Marksmanship in that build, once you account for the two point saving.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

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Yeah I don't know why they insist on putting marksmanship on things in their sample builds. I've seen it used once in person, and whilst it wasn't terrible, it was far from good.

Time for me to go make a squadron with the Countess I suppose. That ability is so awesome. Cannot wait for this set to arrive.
   
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Rochester, MN

Glaive Squadron is going to be an interesting elite generic. Glaives with Juke or Crackshot might work.

The Countess is in Guri Territory: a very good pilot ability, but mediocre PS. Good thing she has an Elite slot; I would be a lot less interested otherwise. If nothing else, she can just do green 5-K-Turns all day, and take Focus+Evade every turn, with little hope of the enemy ace being able to arc-dodge her.

I've never cared for Maarek Steele's pilot ability, but he's easier to use in a list than Vessery (who requires TL-capable wingmen), and costs only 1 more point than a Glaive. He's competing with Fel, Vader and Jax at this point level.

The dice efficiency of the PS1 Defender /w X7 is old news, but that's the one I'm most excited about. It's a very strong blocker, and deceptively tanky. I'm interested to try this in concert with a Phantom.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 17:46:12


 
   
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 Azreal13 wrote:
Calculation is better than Marksmanship in that build, once you account for the two point saving.


Marksmanship is arguably better, or at least just as good.

Both cards take an action, either directly (Marksmanship) or indirectly (Calculation requires you take the Focus action). Calculation would apply its benefits to a single attack at the cost of your Focus. Marksmanship would apply to both attacks, and while the cannon is not benefiting from the Eye -> Crit portion of Marksmanship in that the cannons cannot crit, it means that both attacks are benefiting from Eye -> Hit/Crit for a single action and 2 more points.

Now, if you list includes a support ship with a fleet officer or something, Calculation becomes the natural choice since you can assign tokens to the Defender when it could not normally take its own action.

So basically it depends, but while Calculation gets you the crit you need, that's all it gives you. Marksmanship gives you the crit and the hits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DanielBeaver wrote:
The Countess is in Guri Territory: a very good pilot ability, but mediocre PS. Good thing she has an Elite slot; I would be a lot less interested otherwise. If nothing else, she can just do green 5-K-Turns all day, and take Focus+Evade every turn, with little hope of the enemy ace being able to arc-dodge her.


Don't forget she has access to the x7 title. So with PTL she can do a 3-5 K turn, get an Evade from the title, and still get two actions of her own: Focus/TL/BR. Not sure I'd splurge on an EU for her, but a Mk II engine is only a point for even more green.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/25 18:50:41


 
   
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Outflanking

 DanielBeaver wrote:


I've never cared for Maarek Steele's pilot ability, but he's easier to use in a list than Vessery (who requires TL-capable wingmen), and costs only 1 more point than a Glaive. He's competing with Fel, Vader and Jax at this point level.


I think that Vessery will be very good in a Triple-D list. Either Vessery and a pair of generics, or a slimmer Vessery with the Countess and a single generic. He also pairs well in a Vader/Inquisitor list.

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 House Griffith wrote:
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/4/25/defend-the-empire/

Of Note:

Holy. Crap.
Countess Ryad can do GREEN K TURNS AT ALL STRAIGHT SPEEDS (2-5)




I need a job soon, just so I can purchase this box.

This makes the Defender pretty damn good now. Excited to try the Countess' ability.

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 streamdragon wrote:
Don't forget she has access to the x7 title. So with PTL she can do a 3-5 K turn, get an Evade from the title, and still get two actions of her own: Focus/TL/BR. Not sure I'd splurge on an EU for her, but a Mk II engine is only a point for even more green.

That was implicit in my post
   
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 streamdragon wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Calculation is better than Marksmanship in that build, once you account for the two point saving.


So basically it depends, but while Calculation gets you the crit you need, that's all it gives you. Marksmanship gives you the crit and the hits.
.


I'd still come down on the side of Calculation over Marksmanship as it gives you a choice of using the focus or not whereas Marksmanship locks you into purely aggresive action

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This will be a short "first impressions" since we've seen most of the cards already:

Titles: yes, they're stupidly broken. Welcome to the TIE defender meta.

Glaive Squadron pilot: a great generic made obsolete by even better uniques. You get PS 6 and an EPT for an extremely competitive price, but the problem is you have very powerful uniques to compete with at effectively the same cost/PS. Maybe in epic these will be viable, since you can fit Vessery and Ryad and still have room for more defenders? Other than that I don't think we'll be seeing these much.

Maarek Stele: fluff-wise this is the best part of the expansion, the hero of TIE Fighter finally gets the ship he was meant to fly. Rules-wise he's decent. 35 points for PS 7 and an EPT is pretty good without even considering his pilot ability, and maybe occasionally you'll get something out of it? I don't think I'd invest anything into getting crits when there are better EPT options available, but when you slip a normal crit through it's going to hurt. The main question is whether he can compete with Vessery, who is just ridiculous post-buff.

Countess Ryad: because apparently nothing in Imperial Veterans is allowed to have any drawbacks she gets PS 5 for a mere 34 points and an EPT and a pretty strong pilot ability. Green k-turns are just insane, and you even get the bonus of being able to choose between a straight maneuver and a k-turn when you reveal your dial. PS 5 isn't great, but it's enough to murder generics and even aces are going to have a hard time keeping up with green k-turns at any speed from 2 to 5. PTL is an obvious choice here, giving you focus + evade + boost/BR/TL every turn, but even taking VI and just exploiting the extra dial options isn't a bad idea.

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the problem is you have very powerful uniques to compete with at effectively the same cost/PS. Maybe in epic these will be viable, since you can fit Vessery and Ryad and still have room for more defenders? Other than that I don't think we'll be seeing these much.


It's the same problem with E-wings. By the time you've bought one and filled the system slot, you're already at 30-odd points. the difference in cost between a PS1 generic and Corran-Bloody-Horn at that point is proportionally so low it feels daft not to take it,

Ryad is definitely nasty. PS5 aces with maneuver abilities seem to be a thing at the moment (Blue Ace, Zeta Ace) but Ryad's ability goes one better, and even outclasses Ello Asty.

Ryad with an Engine Upgrade and Push The Limit is going to be damn slippery.

I don't think I'd invest anything into getting crits when there are better EPT options available, but when you slip a normal crit through it's going to hurt. The main question is whether he can compete with Vessery, who is just ridiculous post-buff.
Agreed. I think that's the main reason to still consider taking him in the Advanced, because you can pack an Advanced Targeting Computer (and he's cheaper). I suggest there's a bloody good reason they cut off the cannon options one point short of allowing Mangler cannons!

If you've taken Stele in a TIE/D there are worse things to spend 'spare' points on than an advanced homing missile, though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/26 07:39:21


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Here's some of the fun you can have with the Countess, PTL, EU, and taking a 2 speed K turn.


 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
Titles: yes, they're stupidly broken. Welcome to the TIE defender meta.

That's a little hyperbolic.

They're good, but they're not that good.

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 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Titles: yes, they're stupidly broken. Welcome to the TIE defender meta.

That's a little hyperbolic.

They're good, but they're not that good.


This. They will be a significant presence in the Meta, but there are counters, namely that well-flown Aces will wreck them (with the possible exception of the Countess), especially with the X7 title. They still don't turn fast if you block off their k-turn. The low PS and high cost of Generics means that anyone with decent alpha-strike potential (Such as U-boats) can put a sizable dent in your list rather quickly.

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 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Titles: yes, they're stupidly broken. Welcome to the TIE defender meta.

That's a little hyperbolic.

They're good, but they're not that good.


This. They will be a significant presence in the Meta, but there are counters, namely that well-flown Aces will wreck them (with the possible exception of the Countess), especially with the X7 title. They still don't turn fast if you block off their k-turn. The low PS and high cost of Generics means that anyone with decent alpha-strike potential (Such as U-boats) can put a sizable dent in your list rather quickly.


Something to add too that the X7 title only works for the 3-, 4-, 5- five speed ranges. Hence if you can manipulate the board so TIE Defender put out those maneuvers to get them into better position and force them to be in the 1- and 2- speed maneuvers. While they can use the 3-, 4-, 5- speed maneuvers as well and get the evade token (since it is not an action), you can make them bump to either not have them get any actions or block a shot against one of your ships.

I guarantee they are still going to be strong ships in the upcoming meta, but nowhere near unstoppable.

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 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Titles: yes, they're stupidly broken. Welcome to the TIE defender meta.

That's a little hyperbolic.

They're good, but they're not that good.


Agreed, especially since they'll still account for at least 1/3 of the cost of your list. Granted, efficient as hell, but still expensive.

 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:

Countess Ryad: because apparently nothing in Imperial Veterans is allowed to have any drawbacks she gets PS 5 for a mere 34 points and an EPT and a pretty strong pilot ability. Green k-turns are just insane, and you even get the bonus of being able to choose between a straight maneuver and a k-turn when you reveal your dial. PS 5 isn't great, but it's enough to murder generics and even aces are going to have a hard time keeping up with green k-turns at any speed from 2 to 5. PTL is an obvious choice here, giving you focus + evade + boost/BR/TL every turn, but even taking VI and just exploiting the extra dial options isn't a bad idea.


One obvious counter to the Countess is stress; as in a lot of it, like a k-wing TLT & tactician at 31 points (warden) or, basically 2 points more than is run pretty frequently anyway. Or the stress-hog y-wing. Even a couple of scum heavy scyks with flachette cannons can be picked up for 18 points each. Another counter would be ion weapons.

Even without dedicated counters, as others have said, the relatively low PS means that other maneuverable aces and ships with tight turning arcs like the TAP should be able to stay on target and arc dodge.

So beyond a resurrection /resurgence of some lists that are difficult to deal with, and maybe a few other new tricks with less-used cards and ships (something that seems less accidental the more I think about it ) I don't think this will "break " the game

   
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Apostasus wrote:
One obvious counter to the Countess is stress; as in a lot of it


Except it's not really a counter. You still get to do a k-turn every turn and get your free evade, so stress control is no more effective against Ryad than against any other ship.

Even a couple of scum heavy scyks with flachette cannons can be picked up for 18 points each.


And if you pick them up you might as well concede the game. Scyks are garbage and flechette cannons can't multi-stress a target.

Even without dedicated counters, as others have said, the relatively low PS means that other maneuverable aces and ships with tight turning arcs like the TAP should be able to stay on target and arc dodge.


This is much easier said than done. Keeping up with a k-turn every turn is really hard, and now Ryad can do it at any speed instead of just a 4-k every turn. The ace is turning 135* (90* turn to clear stress, boost), Ryad is doing a 180*. You'll get shots occasionally, sure, but not very often. It's the same reason why Corran can beat Soontir Fel despite being only PS 8. Fel can't do a 1-straight when Corran stays slow, so he overshoots, can't consistently get shots, and has to break off the turning fight and give Corran a chance to go head to head again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
That's a little hyperbolic.

They're good, but they're not that good.


No, it's not hyperbolic at all. X/7 defenders out-joust TIE swarms. You know, the best (math-wise) jousting ship in the game and the benchmark by which everything else is measured. And they have a white k-turn, giving them high-end maneuverability in addition to the best jousting value. There is nothing remotely balanced about that. And the TIE/D isn't much better, it costs a lot but is insanely efficient control. You get to cripple a target with a non-damage cannon AND hit them with a primary attack. Seriously, try playing with these, they really are that good. The only question left is whether they're actually overpowered enough to break the game, or "only" overpowered enough to be a tier above pretty much everything else.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/26 21:34:16


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 Turnip Jedi wrote:
 streamdragon wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Calculation is better than Marksmanship in that build, once you account for the two point saving.


So basically it depends, but while Calculation gets you the crit you need, that's all it gives you. Marksmanship gives you the crit and the hits.
.


I'd still come down on the side of Calculation over Marksmanship as it gives you a choice of using the focus or not whereas Marksmanship locks you into purely aggresive action


Aggressive action wins games.
   
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 Peregrine wrote:

Except it's not really a counter. You still get to do a k-turn every turn and get your free evade, so stress control is no more effective against Ryad than against any other ship.

Ions then: cannons, turrets, bombs, missiles, torps. ... and stress on a defender with engine upgrade keeps the things in basically a straight line. If that's not vulnerable / predictable enough, I don't know what is.

I'm not saying that there won't be an effect, or that it's going to be easy to counter, but folkshe were also saying u-boats would be unbeatable for a time

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/26 22:11:09


 
   
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 Peregrine wrote:
No, it's not hyperbolic at all. X/7 defenders out-joust TIE swarms. You know, the best (math-wise) jousting ship in the game and the benchmark by which everything else is measured. And they have a white k-turn, giving them high-end maneuverability in addition to the best jousting value. There is nothing remotely balanced about that. And the TIE/D isn't much better, it costs a lot but is insanely efficient control. You get to cripple a target with a non-damage cannon AND hit them with a primary attack. Seriously, try playing with these, they really are that good. The only question left is whether they're actually overpowered enough to break the game, or "only" overpowered enough to be a tier above pretty much everything else.

If jousting value was the only yardstick by which to measure the game, I would agree with you. However, we all know that it isn't the only thing to consider.

Even MajorJuggler seems to think that the these changes (in addition to the other things added to the game recently) will place the Defender in the top-tier of competitive ships without breaking the game and turning the meta on its head.

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Outflanking

I for one welcome a ship where the middle-PS Aces will see extensive use.

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Yet another week gone by, and yet another week of no Imperial Veterans, or another announcement. Sad face,

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 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Dude. Spring is here. Go bask in the pollen and the sunlight. They'll get here when they get here.


I want my toys NOW.

For real, I'm so impatient. I've been waiting for a buff to the Defender for so looong.

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