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I posted in a FB thread were they where accusing some trader of selling recasts. I made the innocent comment that I did not see it as a big deal. You would think I would have said playing "baby baseball" is a good idea as I got attacked by sculptors in the industry and other hobbists.

When it comes to OOP minis and figures owned by big companies GW I am looking at you, I see no issues with recasts. Thoughts?

Theft is theft.

And that 'big companies' line is nonsense and you know it. "Well hey, Ford is a big company, so I stole a car." Because you aren't hurting the company by doing that, you're costing some poor guy in the store their job first, a job.

You're enabling the continued practice of stealing, some people find that abhorrent and reprehensible - and feigning ignorance is just fuel for that fire.

I for one, don't care. I think stealing is bad, yeah, but I'm not going to get on someone's case because they got a cheap Ferrus Manus on Ebay.

The only thing I have a problem with is when people argue that because the hobby is so expensive, it's somehow OK to steal. Fact is, ANY hobby is expensive, and no one is entitled to a hobby - can't afford it? Play/Do something you can.

I agree with curran12.

Recasting and selling the items is theft.

I do,

Just because you want something (an OOP mini) doesn't mean you can have it

recasting can kill smaller companies as they often run on tight margins (or make the owner so depressed the give up and do something else instead)

and just because a business is big doesn't make it any better

Unsurprisingly people who make their living by sculpting war game figures are not amused when other people make their living by recasting the original creations without permission.

it is against the law.

People don't have an ethical right to have war game figures stay in production forever, and they are not necessities, so there's no ethical basis for condoning recastinge ven of OOP items.

Apparently, the answer to your question would be "most people care"

Recasting devalues the item copied, by creating more of it.
Great for the stingy buyer, not great for anyone who earned and saved for an original.

Recasting can also discourage, or outright kill off, new starting out sculptors/companies from continuing and that leads to a bunch of cool stuff that could have been made never being made.

I'll admit I do have some recasts, 10 warp spiders because I never wanted to touch the finecast ones and they're metal. I pretty much only used them for 1-2 games anyway.

It's against the law. End of.

Correct me if im wrong, but isnt recasting bitz fine if it is for personal use? Didnt buttery recast an engine part and it was fine on the forum(Tear into me if im wrong, im not accusing anyone of anything. I just read the building the impossible thread that is all)

Recasting OOP stuff, I'm okay with. It's kind of a moral grey area, but if someone could get me a recast of the Epicast Imperial Knight Paladin, I'd be thankful.

As for stuff that's currently available, I know there's a lot of expensive stuff out there. I could go buy a recast Roboute Guilliman model from Russia or China for much cheaper, but I've actually met a few of the Forgeworld guys, and the thought of essentially taking food off their table and money out of their bank account doesn't make me feel good. I'd rather support the original creators than give my money to somebody else who's just undercutting them to cynically make a profit. I've had my own art stolen enough times to know how lousy that feels.

I hate it when a recast is passed off as a genuine piece. I've had it happen a few times and it's an infuriating experience. It's crass and cheapens the hobby in general.

Now, if you've (as in the royal you) knowingly bought a recast, used it and didn't tell me and I found out later, I wouldn't really be too bothered. I'd think you were a bit of an idiot, but I wouldn't berate you for it. If you boasted before or mid game, well, bye bye. In fact, if you boast about buying recasts and how you saved money and stuck it to the "big man", my opinion of you drops into a deep abyss and I'll think that you're a bit of a tosser.

Saying that, I don't have a problem with a private individual doing a tiny number of recasts of OOP miniatures for themselves with no intention to share with others.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt recasting bitz fine if it is for personal use? Didnt buttery recast an engine part and it was fine on the forum(Tear into me if im wrong, im not accusing anyone of anything. I just read the building the impossible thread that is all)

I'm assuming that the recasting being discussed here is used for secondary market purposes, in order to make profit.

Even then, it's iffy and morally gray. After all, "it's just for personal use" doesn't exactly put money back into the artist's pocket.

Free market capitalism.

EDIT:

I suppose I would feel more mercy for them if they weren't so condescending to their customer base.

Also, looking into recasting, PP and other companies don't actually have this issue because of their customer base not actively disliking them.

 curran12 wrote:
Even then, it's iffy and morally gray. After all, "it's just for personal use" doesn't exactly put money back into the artist's pocket.

But what if it is literally impossible to get your hands on what your need. I need alot of the deathwatch killteam sculpted white scars pads because Im tired of messing up my transfers and ruining models.

Selling recasts? Yes, people really care about that. It's a huge deal.

the_trooper wrote:
Free market capitalism.

No, it's called counterfeiting and it's illegal.

the_trooper wrote:

EDIT:

I suppose I would feel more mercy for them if they weren't so condescending to their customer base.

Also, looking into recasting, PP and other companies don't actually have this issue because of their customer base not actively disliking them.

Then don't buy the products!! If you have a problem with a company, don't engage with their products. Recasting just makes it bad for everybody and you're still playing the companies game and are actively advertising their (recast) products if you play in public places.

Fine, lets take current companies off the table. What is wrong with recasting OOP models?

beowulfhunter wrote:
Fine, lets take current companies off the table. What is wrong with recasting OOP models?

Its still counterfeiting and its still illegal.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Even then, it's iffy and morally gray. After all, "it's just for personal use" doesn't exactly put money back into the artist's pocket.

But what if it is literally impossible to get your hands on what your need. I need alot of the deathwatch killteam sculpted white scars pads because Im tired of messing up my transfers and ruining models.

You don't need White Scars shoulder pads. You want them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

beowulfhunter wrote:
Fine, lets take current companies off the table. What is wrong with recasting OOP models?

Ethically, you devalue the legitimate models owned by real customers who may want to sell them, as well as the original copyright owner who might be thinking of re-issuing the piece and is discouraged by the flood of recasts. This then damages the interests of other legitimate buyers who were waiting for the re-issue that now isn't going to happen.

 curran12 wrote:
Theft is theft.

It's counterfeiting, not theft. Still illegal, but covered by different laws.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Unsurprisingly people who make their living by sculpting war game figures are not amused when other people make their living by recasting the original creations without permission.

it is against the law.

People don't have an ethical right to have war game figures stay in production forever, and they are not necessities, so there's no ethical basis for condoning recastinge ven of OOP items.

Presuming all sculptors feel the same way. Also presuming you accept that present day IP law is based in ethics rather than being a purely legal construct necessitated by scarcity-based economics and grown far past its intended purpose.

It is against the law...in some places. And usually to make and/or sell recasts not to own them.

In short, OP, some people think it's wrong and care very much, and have the mistaken impression that not only does everyone who doesn't actually do it agree with them, but that there's no way any rational person could disagree.

And now this will get locked, because even hypothetical disagreement is not tolerated here(which is not a judgement, it's entirely Dakka's right to set and enforce their own policy on discussing the subject).

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt recasting bitz fine if it is for personal use? Didnt buttery recast an engine part and it was fine on the forum(Tear into me if im wrong, im not accusing anyone of anything. I just read the building the impossible thread that is all)

"I want more of this but don't want to pay for it" is not personal use and not protected.

"I want to practice some painting techniques, so I cast a model 10 times, do a bunch of practice techniques, then destroy all 10 pieces at the end." is personal use and is protected.

Just because you are like 'I am not selling them' doesn't protect you. If you buy 1 model and cast 9 copies to use in a game, you have impacted the market of the copyrighted work by not buying 10 models and have broken the law.

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt recasting bitz fine if it is for personal use? Didnt buttery recast an engine part and it was fine on the forum(Tear into me if im wrong, im not accusing anyone of anything. I just read the building the impossible thread that is all)

"I want more of this but don't want to pay for it" is not personal use and not protected.

"I want to practice some painting techniques, so I cast a model 10 times, do a bunch of practice techniques, then destroy all 10 pieces at the end." is personal use and is protected.

Just because you are like 'I am not selling them' doesn't protect you. If you buy 1 model and cast 9 copies to use in a game, you have impacted the market of the copyrighted work by not buying 10 models and have broken the law.

A conclusion based entirely on the fallacious assumption that the person would have bought the remaining 9 items has they not recast them. This is the same nonsense that leads Nintendo to claim that the total value of piracy of their games is greater than the GDP of developed nation states.

 Yodhrin wrote:


A conclusion based entirely on the fallacious assumption that the person would have bought the remaining 9 items has they not recast them. This is the same nonsense that leads Nintendo to claim that the total value of piracy of their games is greater than the GDP of developed nation states.

"I wasn't going to buy it but will use it for free" doesn't protect you from counterfeiting or piracy. You are an ignorant fool if you think it does and that is your planned defense.

"I want more of this but don't want to pay for it" is not personal use and not protected.

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt recasting bitz fine if it is for personal use? Didnt buttery recast an engine part and it was fine on the forum(Tear into me if im wrong, im not accusing anyone of anything. I just read the building the impossible thread that is all)

"I want more of this but don't want to pay for it" is not personal use and not protected.
.

But as said earlier, it is literally impossible for me to get the amount I need.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Correct me if im wrong, but isnt recasting bitz fine if it is for personal use? Didnt buttery recast an engine part and it was fine on the forum(Tear into me if im wrong, im not accusing anyone of anything. I just read the building the impossible thread that is all)

"I want more of this but don't want to pay for it" is not personal use and not protected.
.

But as said earlier, it is literally impossible for me to get the amount I need.

Here

here

and here.

3 versions of sculpted, White Scars shoulder pads, available for sale, directly from the creator (Games Workshop).

They take cash (in person), credit card, and paypal.

 Brother SRM wrote:
Recasting OOP stuff, I'm okay with. It's kind of a moral grey area, but if someone could get me a recast of the Epicast Imperial Knight Paladin, I'd be thankful.

Doing a re-cast of something (myself, for myself) of something OOP is probably the only part of this I think I would find acceptable.

As for the rest, while I wouldn't quite put it on the same level in moral terms as baby baseball, yes it's wrong. And you'll find that the guys re-casting GW stuff (if you're taking the argument of "big, corporate, over-priced, they can afford to lose the sales") are probably also re-casting smaller boutique studios as well.