Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

2015 saw the release of several miniature games based on major sci-fi franchises from the 80s. These included Aliens versus Predator, Terminator, and Robotech. I personally had been waiting for years for games based in these universes. I was surprised to find that many of these games seem to be floundering. My local store does not carry them, and it is difficult to find opponents. What does this say about the miniature game market? Did mismanagement of kickstarters hurt sales? Were the products substandard? Has the sun set of these classic universes?

 spaceelf wrote:
These included Aliens versus Predator, Terminator, and Robotech.

Did any of these actually make it out into retail yet?

I didn't follow the Terminator kickstarter, but I know the AvP and Robotech campaigns seem to have suffered some fairly substantial delays, and had other issues along the way.


I suspect it's far more down to mismanagement than to the settings themselves.

They all made it to retail. I wonder if kickstarter hurt brick and mortar sales in these cases? Maybe without retail support the games did not take off.

Wait, was Terminator even a Kickstarter?

 insaniak wrote:

 spaceelf wrote:
These included Aliens versus Predator, Terminator, and Robotech.

Did any of these actually make it out into retail yet?

I didn't follow the Terminator kickstarter, but I know the AvP and Robotech campaigns seem to have suffered some fairly substantial delays, and had other issues along the way.


I suspect it's far more down to mismanagement than to the settings themselves.

My FLGS has Terminator and AvP on their shelves. Don't see the stock move much though.

Terminator wasn't a kickstarer, but the cancellation of the movies to follow Genesys (and possibly Genesys itself) have seem to put a dent in the game's popularity.

The other two (AvP & Robotech) have both suffered from mismanagement of the KS by several years. Gamewise, it has made the IP toxic for these two.

However, popularity of all three has been on the wane for years (especially Robotech), so to expect them to become super popular because of a niche game being released seems naive at best. Both of these properties are past their prime and recent attempts to invigorate them (Prometheus, Shadow Chronicles, Genesys) fell flat on their faces. You can't capture bottled lightning twice, it would seem.

Robotech was in my FLGS and had a lot of initial customers. Game play never took off.

I think you see games that have support after the release still do well. It is a very crowded market right now an niche is hard to fill. You have the big boy of GW, Warmahordes, Malifaux, Drop Zone, and Infinity filling in most slots.

Robotech had me at hello but game time for me is so limited I only buy the games I know will last and people at the store will play for a long time. Call that my plastic crack security blanket hehe.

 Fishboy wrote:
I think you see games that have support after the release still do well..

That's the key, really. Any game will only do so well by name alone, regardless of what that name is. It needs to be promoted and supported to keep people interested. Just releasing and hoping for the best seldom results in a lasting product.

As to Terminator, what you get for the price (publisher will blame the licensing fee) doesn't seem, to me, as much value as you could get for other similar games. That's another big consideration.

The prices don't help. The AvP models are in lolGW territory locally. The Alien queen is a bit bigger than a Tyranid Warrior but is, IIRC, about $80au.

The METAL one I bought back in the 90s was under $30 - looking like even more of a bargain now.

I don't think it says anything about the miniature market per se. It is a cautionary tale for licensors that you should better vet people you're giving a license to in order to make sure they're not going to mis-manage the product horrifically and generate ill-will among some of your die-hard fanbase, but in the case of the Robotech franchise I think lawsuits have made that a ship that already sailed long before said mis-management.

Terminator the game wasn't directly botched I do not believe, but the movie tanking so badly as to cancel sequels probably accounts for a great deal of the struggles; the property is mildly tainted by association and people aren't interested in things based on a film that they do not care for. I imagine an Attack of the Clones product would similarly struggle and FFG has been quite conscientious in not including anything from the prequels which I can't believe is an accident. So that case I believe is bad luck that the filmmaker's reach greatly exceeded their grasp.

Pausing briefly to get away from the root cause of some issues, you then have to consider that licensed games are always going to be worse value proposition compared to a home-grown IP; you will get more models per dollar with the latter. This makes it a requirement that the franchise has a good following in the miniatures market already as you're not real likely to grow it on the strength of the offering alone. The prices on some of the starter sets are fairly high, and other games with better pedigrees are often available for less. In other words, you have to have people who want to play with that specific model and are willing to pay the mark-up to do so.

We then circle back to the mis-management angle. RRT was horribly overproduced by all accounts, and AvP seems like much of its struggles are related to a similar issue of making too many things planning on retail sales and not leaving enough ready to handle the obligation to backers. This results in two very bad things; first is that people who loved the franchise so much they gave you cash interest-free up-front now do not like and are not going to share a favorable opinion on the product and second that it will be hard for B&M to move, for example, the RRT core set at $99 when you can buy it from Amazon with Prime shipping for $63 (and can find the core set for even less elsewhere...such as literally in dumpsters if you believe Internet videos). So you manage to alienate both customers and retailers simultaneously; in Econ 101 I'm pretty sure this is referred to as "a terrible idea."

Meanwhile, Kingdom Death is selling a package that cost 4 times as much, available direct-only and somehow still sold out of his expected 2016 sales before the mid-point of the year. GW seems like they're raking in some decent cash on their "board game" and "start collecting" deals, Battlefront is reportedly enjoying great success with Team Yankee, Guild Ball is humming along like an 18-wheeled juggernaut, and more new rulesets for Fantasy and skirmish level games are coming out from a variety of vendors. I'd say the miniature games market is doing quite well if you handle your business properly. If you expect that people will come out of the woodwork and throw money at you just because of the logo on the box and you don't need to put out a quality product, then yeah, you're going to be in for a disappointment.

Some great analysis so far but I have some stuff to add.

One problem with Kick Starters is you don't know if that's the beginning or the end. If 10k people pony up for a Robotech game does that mean there's a lot more where they came from, or is that it? Have you now found the 10k in the world with the interest, money, time and willingness to buy, assemble and play a Robotech mini game?

If so you may find that your planned retail sales never happen and the game is still born outside of the small cadre of superfans who bought in early.

Another problem is a lot of these universes are kind of limited, so the games are limited as well. Star Wars or Star Trek have decades of background and universes the size of well... the universe. Batman's been around 75 years and has a playground the size of the multiverse!

Terminator has um, terminators vs humans and that's it.

Aliens vs Predator is already 2 universes lumped together and you still have only 3 viable factions.

While I may like both universes that's not enough to win my time, money and energy to build new minis, paint them and learn new rules which may or may not be any good.

If I were the Godfather of miniatures I'd create something like GURPS or d20 for miniatures so people who want a Space 1999 or Battlestar Galactica or Robocop game can use the same engine and even have games where Elric takes on Hellboy or Indy Jones has to steal something from Lara Croft.

It would be a touch engine to write, but if someone could it would be a great boon to smaller games.

I don't think the licensors care as they will have made their money already but there in lies the problem; if the licences can't make money back with the initial boxgame release the. You won't see follow up expansion material. No visa me follow up and allot of gamers will drop off quick smart.

Because of the big initial outlay It's not so much a visions circle, more of an imediate death spiral if you can't get a decent revenue in.

 spaceelf wrote:
They all made it to retail. I wonder if kickstarter hurt brick and mortar sales in these cases? Maybe without retail support the games did not take off.

This would be my major guess.

It's a serious risk with kickstarter, the fact that the majority of your possible consumer base just buys then and everyone who wants it already has it when it hits shelves

To me, the thing is that these are all old licences.

Anyone who saw these films and cartoons in the 1980s can easily have already created games based on them using various different SF rules such as Laserburn or Mekton, and there have already been several sets of Aliens, Predators, Robotechs, and Not versions of them on the market.

In short, a lot of the people who might want to play these games have already done so and don't need a new "official" version.

On top of that, licensed games more often than not are a bit crap because the publisher hopes the licence will carry the franchise and neglects the actual game play.

And, I hate to say it, but there are folks that find the companies creating those games to be toxic.

I know that I never want to deal with Palladium, for example. (Personal distaste for the man running the company.)

The Auld Grump

 notprop wrote:
I don't think the licensors care as they will have made their money already...

Not necessarily true. For example, its widely held that Warner Bros. refused to renew Agents of Gaming's license for Babylon 5 Wars simply because they no longer had a show on the air. A licensee can grow their game and do everything right and still have the rug pulled out from under them by the licensor.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


If I were the Godfather of miniatures I'd create something like GURPS or d20 for miniatures so people who want a Space 1999 or Battlestar Galactica or Robocop game can use the same engine and even have games where Elric takes on Hellboy or Indy Jones has to steal something from Lara Croft.

It would be a touch engine to write, but if someone could it would be a great boon to smaller games.

Something like Heroscape or Clix?

 Stormonu wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:


If I were the Godfather of miniatures I'd create something like GURPS or d20 for miniatures so people who want a Space 1999 or Battlestar Galactica or Robocop game can use the same engine and even have games where Elric takes on Hellboy or Indy Jones has to steal something from Lara Croft.

It would be a touch engine to write, but if someone could it would be a great boon to smaller games.

Something like Heroscape or Clix?

Exactly like that. I like Judge Dredd, but not enough to buy, build, paint, learn a new rule set, and teach that rule set to other people.

But buy a few heroclix, sure.

A universal miniature system would only eliminate the last 2 steps but it would make smaller, less prominent universes viable as a mini game.

 Ghaz wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I don't think the licensors care as they will have made their money already...

Not necessarily true. For example, its widely held that Warner Bros. refused to renew Agents of Gaming's license for Babylon 5 Wars simply because they no longer had a show on the air. A licensee can grow their game and do everything right and still have the rug pulled out from under them by the licensor.

I think you misunderstand, the licence wi be paid for in advance. The performance of the licensee should be entirely irrelevant to the licensor unless they hope it will grow interest: which is unlikely given the small niche licences we are talking about.

It depends on the licensor. Some are so huge that they don't care what's happening with a little niche license like miniatures; this is likely why Prodos will never be called to account by 20th Century Fox because the monies involved can be found in their couch cushions. Others are legally bound to the entity in question as is the case with Robotech; calling them on the carpet isn't going to work and revoking the license is just going to cut off the revenue since they can't issue a new license to anyone without getting embroiled in more Macross lawsuits. Thus the people running those two franchises are able to futz about and likely suffer no repercussions from it, which is likely why they both are doing so presently. This does create a great deal of ill-will with what should have been your biggest supporters in a tiny market which results in what the OP is talking about, namely that classic franchises floundering rather than re-emerging.

That said, licensors are far too broad of a thing to say "this is how they will act" to any useful extent; some companies don't care in the slightest about different spheres. GW for example is clearly in the "don't care as long as the check clears" category when it comes to software. Their license with FFG on the other hand seems to contain terms on what they're able to do with any sort of miniature though, for somewhat obvious reasons. Disney and Blizzard are famous for how "meddlesome" they can be with things, as they go to extreme lengths to protect their brands at times. However, to your main point it is true that as long as nobody in the licensor's office notices the bad press, it's unlikely they will act. If they're not really a gaming company to begin with (like Blizzard), then the likelihood of that happening is fairly low barring some sort of government action (e.g. - FTC leveling a consumer fraud charge) splashing across the headlines.

 notprop wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I don't think the licensors care as they will have made their money already...

Not necessarily true. For example, its widely held that Warner Bros. refused to renew Agents of Gaming's license for Babylon 5 Wars simply because they no longer had a show on the air. A licensee can grow their game and do everything right and still have the rug pulled out from under them by the licensor.

I think you misunderstand, the licence wi be paid for in advance. The performance of the licensee should be entirely irrelevant to the licensor unless they hope it will grow interest: which is unlikely given the small niche licences we are talking about.

No. I understand. Warner Bros. turned down money to renew Agents of Gaming's license for Babylon 5 solely because there was no longer a TV show on the air. It shows another hazard of using a licensed IP for your game.

One man's "classic" franchise is another man's "outdated" franchise.

There hasn't been a good Terminator movie since the first Terminator movie. There hasn't been a good Predator movie since the first Predator movie. Robotech was a niche franchise even when it was current when I was a kid, although admittedly I don't know if that franchise continued to produce material since then.

at our local store kickstarter is the doom of games. since the store opened anything except zombicide that has went through kickstarter has been a massive flop. many companies offer deals and exclusives that make it unreasonable for brick and mortar stores to worry about carrying it or even want to. There have been a few horror stories about kick starter at our local that it is almost a curse word now to talk about kickstarters

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Another problem is a lot of these universes are kind of limited, so the games are limited as well. Star Wars or Star Trek have decades of background and universes the size of well... the universe. Batman's been around 75 years and has a playground the size of the multiverse!

Terminator has um, terminators vs humans and that's it.

Aliens vs Predator is already 2 universes lumped together and you still have only 3 viable factions.

While I may like both universes that's not enough to win my time, money and energy to build new minis, paint them and learn new rules which may or may not be any good.

Star wars at its core is rebels versus empire and is extremely successful. I do not think that the number of factions is a major issue with these particular releases.

Space Hulk was initially a two faction game, and saw great success. It was based on Alien. I thought that an official AVP game priced around the same price as Space Hulk would be a good seller.

The battles between humans and terminators just screams wargame to me.

Sadly the desirable qualities of these franchises seem to have been outdone by other factors. I can understand bad blood on account of delayed/botched kickstarters. I can also understand that retail stores not wanting to touch kickstarted games.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
To me, the thing is that these are all old licences.

Anyone who saw these films and cartoons in the 1980s can easily have already created games based on them using various different SF rules such as Laserburn or Mekton, and there have already been several sets of Aliens, Predators, Robotechs, and Not versions of them on the market.

In short, a lot of the people who might want to play these games have already done so and don't need a new "official" version.

On top of that, licensed games more often than not are a bit crap because the publisher hopes the licence will carry the franchise and neglects the actual game play.

Pretty much this. plus the flavor of many of those franchises have been assimilated in other games (eg 'Nids are more or less Aliens, Necrons are Terminators meet the Undead) so the demand for exact licensed product only appeals to hardcore fans, and being a niche in an already niche hobby isn't the best starting point

Corbett wrote:
at our local store kickstarter is the doom of games. since the store opened anything except zombicide that has went through kickstarter has been a massive flop. many companies offer deals and exclusives that make it unreasonable for brick and mortar stores to worry about carrying it or even want to. There have been a few horror stories about kick starter at our local that it is almost a curse word now to talk about kickstarters

Here it very much depends on the game.

Kings of War is doing very well - but I would be willing to bet a can of Pringle's Pizza potato crisps that has more to do with GW's handling of Warhammer than with Kickstarter.

Deadzone is doing okay. Kickstarter helped, but it sold well in the store as well, in part because one of the people that went all in on the Kickstarter runs it at a store.

Dreadball has a league. See above.

One store used to boycott anything that had been Kickstarted. That store is now gone.

The other store plugged the Kickstarter for Reaper Bones, and has a nice little corner of Bones minis. That store shows no sign of disappearing, but it is also in very good health, while the store that tried boycotting was already starting to fail.

Most often, it seems like the success or failure of a game has more to do with community support than with Kickstarter.

The Auld Grump

 Ghaz wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 notprop wrote:
I don't think the licensors care as they will have made their money already...

Not necessarily true. For example, its widely held that Warner Bros. refused to renew Agents of Gaming's license for Babylon 5 Wars simply because they no longer had a show on the air. A licensee can grow their game and do everything right and still have the rug pulled out from under them by the licensor.

I think you misunderstand, the licence wi be paid for in advance. The performance of the licensee should be entirely irrelevant to the licensor unless they hope it will grow interest: which is unlikely given the small niche licences we are talking about.

No. I understand. Warner Bros. turned down money to renew Agents of Gaming's license for Babylon 5 solely because there was no longer a TV show on the air. It shows another hazard of using a licensed IP for your game.

They clearly weren't averse to licensing that IP, because Mongoose Publishing picked it up and put out two editions of a starship combat game and an RPG. My understanding, from following along on Yahoo Groups at the time was that WB simply wanted too much money from AoG and/or Mongoose offered more (and perhaps became victims of their own success - eventually the license became too expensive for them too, although they also didn't have the same relationship with JMS that AoG did. ). AoG tried to go their own way with their own setting, but it didn't go anywhere and the two founders seemed to go their separate ways.

Part of it, I think, is that big movie IPs aren't designed to sell wargames (obviously). For example, 40k (and Warhammer to a lesser extent) is carefully set up so that every faction has a decent reason to fight every other faction - even themselves - and it still makes sense in-setting. Same with Warmachine, Infinity, etc. With Terminator, I suppose you could have two Resistance forces squaring off against each other, but if you and I turn up and both of us have Machines, that's going to look a little stupid.

The problem is you have a niche market within a nice.
Not only do you need people who are into AVP or Terminator, but you also need them to be into games. And you ahve to keep it cheap.