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This is hypothetical since I've never tried it, but it seems like attaching Shielded Missile Drones to your Riptide might be good for the following reasons:

* Against lists with grav weapons, it brings their To Wound roll up to 4+ even if you keep the drones in back.

* Against lists with Destroyer weapons, you can put them up front to soak wounds (keep in mind that extra wounds inflicted on the D-weapon table don't carry over between models).

* Against lists which can't easily kill a Riptide, it helps maintain player interest by introducing the chance of making your unit fail a morale test.

Obviously this isn't an exact either/or thing, but still. >_>; It probably also helps that most people run Iontides, because the Ion Accelerator is great against elite units and weaker against lightly-armoured horde armies.

Thoughts?

Yep, that's not bad. Also, trying ot use the HBC and not buying a Stimulant Injector makes it much less threatening, but still capable.

 Vector Strike wrote:
Yep, that's not bad. Also, trying ot use the HBC and not buying a Stimulant Injector makes it much less threatening, but still capable.

I could see "forgetting" to use the stimulant injector against someone who's having a rough time, a la soft-handed GMing techniques. The HBC will only make things worse against Orks, DE, and Tyranids though. Maybe against BA or CSM it would help, although either of those factions should be able to tie the thing up in melee.

I personally didn't magnetize my Riptide's main gun, because I didn't have large enough magnets. >_o

i like the idea of not using it every turn, let it remain once every other turn against lists that cant easily kill them

Just don't use more than one. One Riptide is annoying, but doesn't really kill that much. Crisis suits are usually more frightening for me.

Riptides are fine. If you want to nerf Tau I want to see proposed nerfs for every codex that's better than us in the ITC standings.

Space Marines (almost all of them) are on top and have placed first more than any Eldar, Eldar, Necrons and Chaos Deamons.

If we get get the nerf bat they need the nerf nukes. Tau are top of the mid tier and haven't changed that way since 6th barring a brief periof of a few ITC tournaments that seen us actually take 1st and that was years ago and only Farsight Enclave lists.

Since the power creep of SPEEZZZ marines is setting in they are eclipsing the Eldar and no one is getting anything to compete with them. So all the tourneys are turning into SPEZZ MARINES fighting loyalist SPEZZ MARINES.

So exciting. That was sarcasm. I'm playing Warhammer 40k not 30k. All the space marine players can go to 30k if that's all they want to see on the table and fight.

Gamgee, that's not the spirit of the topic (but I agree with some of your points). Jewefox wanted to make Riptides more fun to play against using the actual rules, not to propose rules changes.

Riptides are not fine. But please go on about how a cheap immortal mc with a large ap 2 blast is totally fine.

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are not fine. But please go on about how a cheap immortal mc with a large ap 2 blast is totally fine.

"Immortal"

I've had my riptides 1 shot enough times to really find this funny. Assault units, grav, and high ap anything can wreck a riptide. Also if the riptide didn't have a good weapon at 225 points when it's crap at CC then it'd be useless. Not to mention it's all mighty "str 9 ap 2" can completely fail 1/3 the time and burn the guy's fingers. take into account the piddling BS3 and you've a particularly unreliable firing platform.

If people still think a riptide is broken in this day in age then you really are in need of help. They're not op. Maybe a wing of them is scary, but frankly space marines, eldar and any other modern army has equally broken stuff, if not more so.

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are not fine. But please go on about how a cheap immortal mc with a large ap 2 blast is totally fine.

"Immortal"

I've had my riptides 1 shot enough times to really find this funny. Assault units, grav, and high ap anything can wreck a riptide. Also if the riptide didn't have a good weapon at 225 points when it's crap at CC then it'd be useless. Not to mention it's all mighty "str 9 ap 2" can completely fail 1/3 the time and burn the guy's fingers. take into account the piddling BS3 and you've a particularly unreliable firing platform.

Riptides are actually quite good at melee because they are immortal and get AP 2 for free. With access to a 3++/5+++ save, even powerfists bounce off harmlessly. BS 3 blasts are actually not that bad in terms of accuracy. Someone on here has worked out the math and even BS 2 has a high hit rate vs a unit of infantry.

Yes, while many things *can* wreck a Riptide, look at the math behind it. It takes a staggering amount of AP 2 fire to have a decent shot of killing it. Staggering. Multiple turns of fire from many lists.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Riptides are not fine. But please go on about how a cheap immortal mc with a large ap 2 blast is totally fine.

"Immortal"

I've had my riptides 1 shot enough times to really find this funny. Assault units, grav, and high ap anything can wreck a riptide. Also if the riptide didn't have a good weapon at 225 points when it's crap at CC then it'd be useless. Not to mention it's all mighty "str 9 ap 2" can completely fail 1/3 the time and burn the guy's fingers. take into account the piddling BS3 and you've a particularly unreliable firing platform.

Riptides are actually quite good at melee because they are immortal and get AP 2 for free. BS 3 blasts are actually not that bad in terms of accuracy. Someone on here has worked out the math and even BS 2 has a high hit rate vs a unit of infantry.

Yes, while many things *can* wreck a Riptide, look at the math behind it. It takes a staggering amount of AP 2 fire to have a decent shot of killing it. Staggering. Multiple turns of fire from many lists.

First off, if by good in combat you mean not have a 225 point model getting sweaped by conscripts then you'd be correct. Turns out often enough however, a riptide in CC equates to something along the lines of being tied down by cultists for 4 turns straight. God forbid any of the guardsmen equivalents have character with ap 1-2. A 3 up save also only happens if the guy doesn't burn himself, and even then he can drown in saves regardless.

It takes one turn of anything with a lot of grav to drop a tide.

A riptide will do about 1-2 wounds to its self a game, so you really only need a few good hits from high ap.

The riptide has counters. I realize it's good, but peoe make it out be the most op thing ever. Counters exist. Weather or not you want to use them is your problem.

I've tried. And tried and tried and tried. Those "counters" have a tendency to be shot off the table before they can be employed. At least for those of us who can't field invisible centurions.

There's two things with a lot of grav: grav devs and grav cents. Bikers can't bring enough hurt: the Riptide just laughs off 3-5 AP 2 wounds because it always have a 5++/5+++ going for it. Minimum.

Yes, you can tarpit a Riptide for a huge chunk of the game, but at a cost of one of you own units after the Riptide has already blown it's own point value off the table trivially.

Martel732 wrote:
I've tried. And tried and tried and tried. Those "counters" have a tendency to be shot off the table before they can be employed. At least for those of us who can't field invisible centurions.

There's two things with a lot of grav: grav devs and grav cents. Bikers can't bring enough hurt: the Riptide just laughs off 3-5 AP 2 wounds because it always have a 5++/5+++ going for it. Minimum.

Yes, you can tarpit a Riptide for a huge chunk of the game, but at a cost of one of you own units after the Riptide has already blown it's own point value off the table trivially.

Perhaps the riptide isn't the problem, and either your army needs an update, or you need to learn how to play.

 Gamgee wrote:
Riptides are fine. If you want to nerf Tau I want to see proposed nerfs for every codex that's better than us in the ITC standings.

Space Marines (almost all of them) are on top and have placed first more than any Eldar, Eldar, Necrons and Chaos Deamons.

If we get get the nerf bat they need the nerf nukes. Tau are top of the mid tier and haven't changed that way since 6th barring a brief periof of a few ITC tournaments that seen us actually take 1st and that was years ago and only Farsight Enclave lists.

Tau are not mid tier. Their top tier, just not the same level as Eldar or Space Marines

Since the power creep of SPEEZZZ marines is setting in they are eclipsing the Eldar and no one is getting anything to compete with them. So all the tourneys are turning into SPEZZ MARINES fighting loyalist SPEZZ MARINES.

So exciting. That was sarcasm. I'm playing Warhammer 40k not 30k. All the space marine players can go to 30k if that's all they want to see on the table and fight.

So you're gonna try and turn this into a thread complaining about the ITC Tau nerfs? Don't we have enough of those?

While the Riptide isnt the *most* OP thing out there, lets all be real, it could use some toning down. Just because counters exist doesnr mean theyre necessarily as effective as they should be or are able to be deployed as smoothly as they need to be able to in order to function properly. I mean, there are counters to a Warlord Titan too...doesn't mean that most of them are particularly great.

The Riptide could probably do with losing a wound and access to FNP (it's a robot...what does stimulant injectors for the pilot have to do with anything when it takes a lascannon to a thruster array...?).

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've tried. And tried and tried and tried. Those "counters" have a tendency to be shot off the table before they can be employed. At least for those of us who can't field invisible centurions.

There's two things with a lot of grav: grav devs and grav cents. Bikers can't bring enough hurt: the Riptide just laughs off 3-5 AP 2 wounds because it always have a 5++/5+++ going for it. Minimum.

Yes, you can tarpit a Riptide for a huge chunk of the game, but at a cost of one of you own units after the Riptide has already blown it's own point value off the table trivially.

Perhaps the riptide isn't the problem, and either your army needs an update, or you need to learn how to play.

I was wondering how long it would take to get to this. BA don't have grav devs or grav cents or assault from deepstrike. The Riptide IS a problem, it's just that a few lists have the very specific counters you need. Even then, you have to fire what? 3 or 4 times the thing's point value at it to bring one down? A single volley from grav cents won't quite do it on average, and they already cost considerably more than the Riptide. The thing laughs at every Imperial heavy weapon EXCEPT grav. But there's no problem here.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Riptides are fine. If you want to nerf Tau I want to see proposed nerfs for every codex that's better than us in the ITC standings.

Space Marines (almost all of them) are on top and have placed first more than any Eldar, Eldar, Necrons and Chaos Deamons.

If we get get the nerf bat they need the nerf nukes. Tau are top of the mid tier and haven't changed that way since 6th barring a brief periof of a few ITC tournaments that seen us actually take 1st and that was years ago and only Farsight Enclave lists.

Tau are not mid tier. Their top tier, just not the same level as Eldar or Space Marines.

Tau aren't top tier.

See, I can make an argument without evidence to back up my claim too.

They are certainly top tier. Just because you can't rofl stomp other top tier lists off the tabletop doesn't make you midtier. Mid tier lists have only an outside chance against top lists. Tau are better off than that against other top tier lists.

The big difference is that lists like Wolfstar can tank your IA hits without losing 200 pts of models every time the Riptide fires.

Just take one. its fine enough.

its when there is 3 it becomes a pain when they are cross shooting threats from across the board.

the HBC is also great fun in casual settings. there is always something fun about grabbing a hand full of dice for one weapon going dakka dakka dakka

Martel732 wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've tried. And tried and tried and tried. Those "counters" have a tendency to be shot off the table before they can be employed. At least for those of us who can't field invisible centurions.

There's two things with a lot of grav: grav devs and grav cents. Bikers can't bring enough hurt: the Riptide just laughs off 3-5 AP 2 wounds because it always have a 5++/5+++ going for it. Minimum.

Yes, you can tarpit a Riptide for a huge chunk of the game, but at a cost of one of you own units after the Riptide has already blown it's own point value off the table trivially.

Perhaps the riptide isn't the problem, and either your army needs an update, or you need to learn how to play.

I was wondering how long it would take to get to this. BA don't have grav devs or grav cents or assault from deepstrike. The Riptide IS a problem, it's just that a few lists have the very specific counters you need. Even then, you have to fire what? 3 or 4 times the thing's point value at it to bring one down? A single volley from grav cents won't quite do it on average, and they already cost considerably more than the Riptide. The thing laughs at every Imperial heavy weapon EXCEPT grav. But there's no problem here.

Blood Angels need an update. Every list can take a knight which will hunt down a tide and 1 shot it with D. Grav amps on cents have the potential to 1 shot a riptide after a single volley.

IKs are a joke, though. Their cost is outrageous compared to a WK or Ritpide, and for less durability. SHW are gak compared to MCs and GMCs. Your Stormsurge will lay waste to my IKs before they even get close. And dont' forget the missile sides. The Riptide is even BETTER in the context of a full Tau list. IKs don't get any better by putting them in an Imperial list.

The potential is not that great. It hovers around 40ish % with no 3++. Turn on the 3++ save and forget about it.

Martel732 wrote:
IKs are a joke, though. Their cost is outrageous compared to a WK or Ritpide, and for less durability. SHW are gak compared to MCs and GMCs. Your Stormsurge will lay waste to my IKs before they even get close. And dont' forget the missile sides. The Riptide is even BETTER in the context of a full Tau list. IKs don't get any better by putting them in an Imperial list.

The potential is not that great. It hovers around 40ish % with no 3++. Turn on the 3++ save and forget about it.

Why do people always assuming the tide can jump 4D6, fire it's secondary gun twice, nova charge the gun and 3+ all at once?

Also the fact I've counters to your imperial knight doesn't make an imperial knight any less effective at hunting a riptide. Once we're discussing counters to counters, I could just argue that find a way to counter my counter to your counter and we could go in circles for ages. If you think a riptide is hard to kill, how do you feel about invisibility, lucky stick or 2 up rerolling invuln saves on demons?

I think it's hard to say that IK's are a joke. Yeah, WK's are better, but are universally acknowledged as being monstrously undercosted and broken. IK's are well balanced largely...as long as there's just one (more than that and they start being able to overwhelm AT very easily...and is why most events limit them to 1-3 and basically none allow full Knight armies).

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think it's hard to say that IK's are a joke. Yeah, WK's are better, but are universally acknowledged as being monstrously undercosted and broken. IK's are well balanced largely...as long as there's just one (more than that and they start being able to overwhelm AT very easily...and is why most events limit them to 1-3 and basically none allow full Knight armies).

IKs die to melta and even scatterlasers. Good luck killing a Riptide or Stormsurge with either of those weapons. Yes, 5 IKs may overwhelm AT, but you can probably kill enough to have a shot on objectives. Killing 5 Riptides? Come on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jaxler wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IKs are a joke, though. Their cost is outrageous compared to a WK or Ritpide, and for less durability. SHW are gak compared to MCs and GMCs. Your Stormsurge will lay waste to my IKs before they even get close. And dont' forget the missile sides. The Riptide is even BETTER in the context of a full Tau list. IKs don't get any better by putting them in an Imperial list.

The potential is not that great. It hovers around 40ish % with no 3++. Turn on the 3++ save and forget about it.

Why do people always assuming the tide can jump 4D6, fire it's secondary gun twice, nova charge the gun and 3+ all at once?

Also the fact I've counters to your imperial knight doesn't make an imperial knight any less effective at hunting a riptide. Once we're discussing counters to counters, I could just argue that find a way to counter my counter to your counter and we could go in circles for ages. If you think a riptide is hard to kill, how do you feel about invisibility, lucky stick or 2 up rerolling invuln saves on demons?

I'm not assuming that. You never need to nova charge the IA to get the effect you really want. In my experience, the 3++ is on or off, and the other stuff is rarely used. A bit of a design flaw with the IA: it's OP even when NOT nova charged.

The goddamn lowly BA have counters to IKs. Good ones, since IKs have no access to interceptor. So it's not impressive that anyone has counters to IKs. You know what I don't have counters for? MCs. Even the much-maligned Tyranids MCs quickly become a problem for BA because we can't shoot non-vehicles worth a damn. Because anti-tank weapons magically don't work vs MCs somehow,.

IKs do have access to interceptor its just the autocannon is a bit of a point trap.

I like the idea of just taking 1-3 at most as long as it is 1 unit, or the Riptide Wing. Their damage output really isn't that great (if you are taking more that 1-2 hits from the Ion cannon, you don't know how to place your models). Riptides are good, but can be dealt with. Adding Drone to them is a great way to add firepower to them and bring their cost/risk level up.

To those that want to believe they die to combat, please explain to me how 2 Daemon Princes each charged separate Riptides and could not do a single wound over 4 rounds of combat? This happened to me in a game. It was frustrating. 3++ and FNP is just nuts durable.

Just give up arguing with Martel. The guy can't do math and doesn't understand that we're not in the beginning of 6th edition anymore, so he just whines on and on incessantly in every thread.

For the record, for anyone reading, Riptides are not good. They're durable, but require hundreds of points of markerlight support to be considered effective at killing anything.

Even then, an iron hands command squad will single handedly run down and destroy an entire tau army. So I dunno what the complaint really is, that Tau aren't even worse than they already are?

First - tau are top tier. The riptide - is easily the hardest unit to kill in the game. A flying hive tyrant or belkor are hard to kill too BUT - both of these things have to get in close to the enemy to deal damage. A riptide can sit back on it's back lines a JSJ from behind a building firing 72 inch vidi blasts without going nova. Thats a defensive stance! Offensively they jump into area cover at the middle of the table and beg to get shot at and will still likely be ignored. Drop pod sterngard? IA and TL plasma gun to the face - at least half the squad destroyed - the rest do a few wounds maybe - then get wrecked in assault. About the only thing riptides can't handle is superfriends no one can handle that gak.

LockeWatts wrote:
Just give up arguing with Martel. The guy can't do math and doesn't understand that we're not in the beginning of 6th edition anymore, so he just whines on and on incessantly in every thread.

For the record, for anyone reading, Riptides are not good. They're durable, but require hundreds of points of markerlight support to be considered effective at killing anything.

Even then, an iron hands command squad will single handedly run down and destroy an entire tau army. So I dunno what the complaint really is, that Tau aren't even worse than they already are?

To be fair, every army isnt a space marine army. and not everyone plays iron hands.

Riptides aren't just durable, they're very mobile and, lets be real, they do have great firepower. They may not have WK firepower, but they're putting out firepower equal to or exceeding that of a Russ tank, even without markerlights, on top of their mobility and resiliency.

Given how auto-include they are (seriously...perusing through the army list forum I could find a Tau list that was above 1000pts that *didnt* have a Riptide), it's hard to believe that there isnt something wrong, much like SW armies and TWC's or Eldar and WK's or Scatterbikes.