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Alrighty, been toiling over a list for a bit with a newly fleshed out Grey Knight army, not sure if I'm trying to apply an IG mentality here (more bodies!)so, if I'm missing the overall point, let me know.

--1500--


-HQ-
Libby - lvl3, stormbolter, stave, digital weapons
Libby - lvl3, stormbolter, stave, digital weapons


-Troops-
Terminators - Justicar w/ falchions, 2x halberds, 1x sword+psycannon, 1x hammer
Terminators - Justicar w/ falchions, 2x halberds, 1x sword+psycannon, 1x hammer
Terminators - Justicar w/ falchions, 2x halberds, 1x sword+psycannon, 1x hammer
Terminators - Justicar w/ falchions, 2x halberds, 1x sword+psycannon, 1x hammer


-Heavy Support-
Dreadknight - Sword and fist, personal teleporter, heavy incinerator
Dreadknight - Sword and fist, personal teleporter, heavy incinerator


Notes: That puts me at 1492 total. Doesn't leave much room for wargear, but I figured that wasn't a huge requirement in such an elite army (more bodies!). I had been considering dropping the digital weapons from the Libby's in favor of giving on the Liber Daemonica but I wasn't sure if Sanctic was what I was going to roll on for either psyker. I don't have a 3rd Dreadknight, otherwise I'd have dropped the 4th terminator squad in favor of it. I HAVE considered maybe dropping the second librarian in favor of a dreadnought in a pod with twin-linked heavy flamers, but again, I see something like that as a throw away unit that will probably just get glanced to death - whereas more bodies/more psychic power might be more beneficial overall.

I have more terminators available, along with some rhinos/razorbacks, an assload of strike/interceptor/purifier/purgation squads, and a land raider. I hadn't considered a PA marine based army (mainly because PA Grey Knights have never done anything for me, and I wasn't sure if at 1500 they'd even bet worth it)or deploying the Land Raider (mostly because tanks are bad now, my IG weep for the future). But if any of you have any ideas that might afford me a better shot at dealing with Eldar on the whole, let me know.

Note 2: I suppose it's worth mentioning what I'll be dealing with Eldar-wise:

Scatterbikes (probably not more that a unit of 3)
Farseer on a bike (tossed in with a warlock and, I'm assuming, with the unit of scatterbikes)
Vypers
Falcons with Fire Dragon support
Warp Spiders (because why not field the most annoying unit ever conceived)
Wraithknight (dual cannons I believe)

The only real issue I have is mobility - but given that my opponent has a very easily poked ego, I can goad him into charging me (hopefully). But barring that, the list I came up with lacks bodies (as with all GK lists it seems), and even with the Dreadknights mobility is an issue.

like you said you're lacking mobility to deal with eldar, especially when jetbikes and warp spiders get thier extra moves.
It's hard to remedy with GK but personally i'd swap a unit of terminators for interceptors.
I know they're rarely used but have you considered dropping the digital weapons and putting a gatling psilencer (or heavy psycannon) on a Dreadknight, you need some decent shooting to pour into stuff and with the gatlings potential 12 instant death shots you're bound to kill pesky jetbikes.

Well, the fight was had today...didn't go well. Got tabled by the end of turn 4 - I just couldn't handle the volume fire he was throwing around.

Think I might revisit some vehicles and/or swapping out for more jump troops as a mobile firebase. Even terminators start to wilt under massed fire, this was no exception.

One of your problems is Bladestorm, which is a strong counter to all your 2+. You pay a premium for the TDA, which gets cut thru by Eldar shooting. I'd drop Termies and take PAGK. Also, Cleansing Flame will be your friend.

Take some Purfs with Draigo and gate into the heart of his army. If one of your Libbys rolls Flame, even better.

Interceptors with Incinerators are also going to be amazing.
Flame/Shunt lists do very well against most xenos lists.

He could field just guardians and blow you off the table. Grey knights are just crap against them.

This will be your best chance.

NSF
5 mans strike squad
Lvl 3 Libby roll on telepathy
2x dread-knights Sword/flame/teleporter

NSF
5 mans strike squad
Lvl 3 Libby roll on telepathy
2x dread-knights Sword/flame/teleporter

NSF
5 man strike
Lvl 3 Libby
1x Dread Knight

^Thats about 1500 points. It's the best GK could ever hope to do against Eldar. If it looks like you can get first turn assault roll on geomancy for shifting worldscape.

Did you play that as a CAD? It sounds like you deployed everything on the board and expected to be able to outshoot him...

Even before changing your list you should consider a change of tactics. That list belongs in a Nemesis Strike Force. Start the game with only the DKs deployed in cover (blocking line of sight if possible). Everything else should arrive from Deep Strike. With decent rolls, 3 units will arrive on turn 1. So you Deep Strike 3 Termy units and 1 or 2 Librarians (depending on reserve rolls) and shunt the DKs. Then case Cleansing Flame with the Libbies (if you rolled it) and focus fire his bikes.

If all you did was deploy all your Terminators on your side of the board and expected to somehow get in range or hope that he charges you then THAT is more of a contributing factor to your loss than the army list.

Zimko wrote:
Did you play that as a CAD? It sounds like you deployed everything on the board and expected to be able to outshoot him...

Even before changing your list you should consider a change of tactics. That list belongs in a Nemesis Strike Force. Start the game with only the DKs deployed in cover (blocking line of sight if possible). Everything else should arrive from Deep Strike. With decent rolls, 3 units will arrive on turn 1. So you Deep Strike 3 Termy units and 1 or 2 Librarians (depending on reserve rolls) and shunt the DKs. Then case Cleansing Flame with the Libbies (if you rolled it) and focus fire his bikes.

If all you did was deploy all your Terminators on your side of the board and expected to somehow get in range or hope that he charges you then THAT is more of a contributing factor to your loss than the army list.

If you know you are playing eldar and you bring 20 terminators you've already lost. Eldar can kill 20 termiantors in a single turn. Or 4 deadknights - there is basically no reason to play the matchup.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Zimko wrote:
Did you play that as a CAD? It sounds like you deployed everything on the board and expected to be able to outshoot him...

Even before changing your list you should consider a change of tactics. That list belongs in a Nemesis Strike Force. Start the game with only the DKs deployed in cover (blocking line of sight if possible). Everything else should arrive from Deep Strike. With decent rolls, 3 units will arrive on turn 1. So you Deep Strike 3 Termy units and 1 or 2 Librarians (depending on reserve rolls) and shunt the DKs. Then case Cleansing Flame with the Libbies (if you rolled it) and focus fire his bikes.

If all you did was deploy all your Terminators on your side of the board and expected to somehow get in range or hope that he charges you then THAT is more of a contributing factor to your loss than the army list.

If you know you are playing eldar and you bring 20 terminators you've already lost. Eldar can kill 20 termiantors in a single turn. Or 4 deadknights - there is basically no reason to play the matchup.

Sure, but if your army is outclassed it doesn't mean you have to bend over for them. You should at least use good tactics even if you'll lose in the end.

Changing his army list won't make a lick of difference if he's still deploying everything on the board like an 18th century army lining up in ranks.

Zimko wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Zimko wrote:
Did you play that as a CAD? It sounds like you deployed everything on the board and expected to be able to outshoot him...

Even before changing your list you should consider a change of tactics. That list belongs in a Nemesis Strike Force. Start the game with only the DKs deployed in cover (blocking line of sight if possible). Everything else should arrive from Deep Strike. With decent rolls, 3 units will arrive on turn 1. So you Deep Strike 3 Termy units and 1 or 2 Librarians (depending on reserve rolls) and shunt the DKs. Then case Cleansing Flame with the Libbies (if you rolled it) and focus fire his bikes.

If all you did was deploy all your Terminators on your side of the board and expected to somehow get in range or hope that he charges you then THAT is more of a contributing factor to your loss than the army list.

If you know you are playing eldar and you bring 20 terminators you've already lost. Eldar can kill 20 termiantors in a single turn. Or 4 deadknights - there is basically no reason to play the matchup.

Sure, but if your army is outclassed it doesn't mean you have to bend over for them. You should at least use good tactics even if you'll lose in the end.

Changing his army list won't make a lick of difference if he's still deploying everything on the board like an 18th century army lining up in ranks.

You make a good point. The best success I had with GK was using the exact strategy you posted. It just doesn't work when your opponent gets ap2 every 6th wound with almost every weapon in their army.

Indeed, however this is the army he said he was dealing with.

'Scatterbikes (probably not more that a unit of 3)
Farseer on a bike (tossed in with a warlock and, I'm assuming, with the unit of scatterbikes)
Vypers
Falcons with Fire Dragon support
Warp Spiders (because why not field the most annoying unit ever conceived)
Wraithknight (dual cannons I believe) '

It sounds like only 1 unit of Scatterbikes with the Farseer attached. With a good alpha strike, he should be able to destroy that on turn 1.

The Wraithknight would be able to destroy 2 models per turn at most unless it engaged into melee where a GK has a decent chance of killing him. So the Wraithknight is actually a lower threat in this game than the rest. The DKs should actually be able to take it out in melee since it's not wielding Strength D in melee.

My biggest concern would be the Fire Dragons. If you can manage to catch a Falcon with rear shots from a Psycannon then take it!

Another big concern is the Warp Spiders. But there isn't much he can do about them if there's a lot of terrain. You're better off shooting at what you CAN kill first before trying to tackle the Spiders.

I'd say if he played his army well, then he had an OK chance at victory if the dice favored him. But if he didn't try to alpha strike then he had almost 0 chance of victory.

Thanks for the feedback about the list, and given how the fight turned out, it certainly would have been nice to have more bodies with PAGK rather than the quality of TAGK - especially given the spam I had to face.

And, because the NSF deepstrike rule has tempted me in the past (and I have been utterly screwed by it, every. single. time.) I chose to square off against him with everything deployed. He only had the WK and Falcons on the board to start, so I only ate one or two wounds at the start of the game - later on the footslogging is basically what cost me the game, I feel.

As far as what I faced, it was...a Windrider Host? I might be screwing that name up. But it turned out to be three units of bikers, his farseer and warlock buddy, and some Vypers. They showed up piecemeal over the course of turns 2-3 and while the psychic phase (for him) was pretty lack luster throughout...I don't think he missed less than 80% of his shots. Even with constant 2+ against most of the shooting (5++ is so terrible and not even worth it), I still lost a couple models a turn.

Surprisingly, I think I handled the DK's poorly - one died before he even had a chance to do anything - pulse laser and lance fire with remarkably good rolling annihilated him before he could charge. And the second one died shortly after killing only a single Falcon.

I don't own the Eldar dex and up until this weekend had zero interest in studying it, but it seemed like the army had an answer for everything; tanks with invulnerable saves in cc, cheap high strength low ap weapons, random 'everyone gets BS5' buffs just for taking certain aspects, getting to negate perils results just by waving a hand and saying that this item lets that happen, rerolling any failed psychic dice (this might have been a once per phase thing, I just saw it every phase)...I dunno, seemed like an up hill fight more than any other I've faced (probably more so because of my poor deployment and gakky rolling).

I'm going to have a rematch, of course, and I think I'll aim to have more PAGK on the field next time. If anything, I'd like to try and field more bodies - if he's spamming AP2 who really cares about TDA then right? I'll read back over the thread and take notes on the suggestions everyone's made - I really appreciate the feedback.

Edit: I realized that the order of battle might help if anyone is going to provide any further opinion:

Game Type: Relic
Deployment: Long table edges
1500 Points


Turn 1: Night Fighting enabled

Him: WK and Falcons with Fire Dragons directly across from me. His shooting takes a wound off of a DK.

Me: Win the roll off, go second, deploy second. (Realized I could have used this to my advantage if I'd taken the NSF)
Deploy DK's behind some terrain for a better cover save (no LOS blocking on the board)
Deploy Terminators and Libby's across the line
I move everyone up, shunt the DK's to the nearest cover to him, hopefully to get a t2 charge.


Turn 2:

Him: Everything shows up from reserve except one unit of bikes and the Warp Spiders
Shoots on DK to death, wounds the other.
Shoots the TDA squad that had run and got the relic, kills it down to 2 models.
Casts some powers that don't really end up doing anything.

Me:
Charge the DK into the Falcons, kill one, he saves out of two pens on the last one with some boss rolling.
Shoot up the Fire Dragons that were just sitting in the middle of the board, took three squads to kill them. Last squad shot at some bikes, did nothing.


Turn 3:

Him: Last squad of bikes appears, Spiders stay in reserve.
Kills the last DK with massed firepower and Doom.
Shoots across my line, widdles down all four remaining squads and kills my second (non warlord) libby.

Me: Try to get the relic somewhere defensible, sort of pointless.
Get Vortex of Doom off, does nothing.
My shooting sees the deaths of two squads of bikers (relied on his 3+ rather than jinking, I don't blame him given the gakky ap I had).
Squads shuffle around a bit.


Turn 4:

Him: Spiders appear in backfield, shoots the relic carrier to death. Rest of the army proceeds to table me.


This is basically what happened - my psychic powers were pretty useless (never got into range to really showcase how awesome GK's are at CC), and my overall rolling was pretty subpar. There were instances where I had a single terminator tank something like 11 wounds, but that was about it for highlights.

I don't think Eldar tanks get invuldnerable saves in melee. They have a 'Holo-field' upgrade that gives them a 5++ but I'm pretty sure it's only from shooting attacks.

A NSF would have definitely helped in a relic mission. Allowing you to deep strike on and around the objective, providing a screen for the relic while harassing his deployed units.

Definitely look into that Falcon thing though. Ask him which upgrade gives invulnerable to see it in the codex.

Zimko wrote:
I don't think Eldar tanks get invuldnerable saves in melee. They have a 'Holo-field' upgrade that gives them a 5++ but I'm pretty sure it's only from shooting attacks.

A NSF would have definitely helped in a relic mission. Allowing you to deep strike on and around the objective, providing a screen for the relic while harassing his deployed units.

Definitely look into that Falcon thing though. Ask him which upgrade gives invulnerable to see it in the codex.

Only War-walkers get the invo save in CC.

Yes, and it sounds like that was a huge game changer, preventing you from wrecking all his Falcons. Shame.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Zimko wrote:
I don't think Eldar tanks get invuldnerable saves in melee. They have a 'Holo-field' upgrade that gives them a 5++ but I'm pretty sure it's only from shooting attacks.

A NSF would have definitely helped in a relic mission. Allowing you to deep strike on and around the objective, providing a screen for the relic while harassing his deployed units.

Definitely look into that Falcon thing though. Ask him which upgrade gives invulnerable to see it in the codex.

Only War-walkers get the invo save in CC.

That's incorrect. Holo fields give an invul all the time unless the vehicle is Immobilised.