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I want to start a thread to address the annoying parts of armies. These things would actually make me enjoy playing against top tier armies

Tau
-Make Vespid and Kroot viable. Cool models, but no competent Tau player every takes them
-Only allow supporting fire on LD checks. As it stands, it's too powerful against assault armies (what few are left)
-Remove supporting fire from vehicles. Even Eldar don't get this, why should Tau?
-Change markerlights to either +1 to BS or -1 to cover save for every markerlight. Alternatively, allow marker lights to be avoided with cover saves, as markerlights destroy any army that uses cover saves (DE, Orks, Tau)

Space Marines
-Get rid of Gladius. That's really my only hate for them, it's a stupid formation

Necrons
-Make Resurection Protocol function like FNP, where double toughness deny it, instead of making it -1.

Tyranids
-Make Gaunts more viable, so no more 5 Flyrant builds

Eldar
-Just nerf the whole book. Too many strong options, especially with Scatter Lasers, Wraithknights, D weapons, etc.

That won't nerf crons. Make reanimation for their last wound or make it an invuln.

Well, you made some glaring mistakes, especially with tau.

Vespid and kroot? Yea they suck. All know that.

Supporting fire on ld check? Ld checks to trigger your rules got phased out for a reason, it sucks and prevents meaningful tactical decisions. Also, supporting fire is hardly ever relevant, only in a handful of fringe cases it will save a squad, usually it just adds a bit of casualties or even does nothing.
Much like the hunter contingent, it looks insane on paper, but in actual game (or even with some simple math) it's easy to see just how little it does. Just like any other overwatch boost in the game (DA and renegades spring to mind)

Remove supporting fire off vehicles? They don't have it. It's a 10 point upgrade and even then only works for weapons of S5 or lower, an upgrade nobody ever takes because it's not worth the price.
Also, what does eldar have anything to do with this? Supporting fire is a tau only thing, until ravenwing stole it at least.

Markerlights is also a thing commonly said, you added nothing new.

You did however neglected the three real issues.
1-riptide's IA shouldn't have a non-nova blast
2-riptide wing should not exist .
3-broadside hymp too good.

(there are a few more buffs required to neglected units/options, but I won't list them all)




Gladius-its not the problem, the fact it granted razors is the problem, and the fact drop pods are extra durable for no good reason and somehow score.


Necron reanimation mechanic as a whole needs to return to the old style. It took longer and required a bit of bookkeeping, but was saner and allowed counterplay.

Nids-you are not even scratching the surface of what's wrong there. The entire codex needs to be put out of his misery and rewritten.

Eldar... Gotta agree, they have a whole list if "why on earth they got this special treatment" cases,

 jreilly89 wrote:
I want to start a thread to address the annoying parts of armies. These things would actually make me enjoy playing against top tier armies

Tau
-Make Vespid and Kroot viable. Cool models, but no competent Tau player every takes them
-Only allow supporting fire on LD checks. As it stands, it's too powerful against assault armies (what few are left)
-Remove supporting fire from vehicles. Even Eldar don't get this, why should Tau?
-Change markerlights to either +1 to BS or -1 to cover save for every markerlight. Alternatively, allow marker lights to be avoided with cover saves, as markerlights destroy any army that uses cover saves (DE, Orks, Tau)

But you're cool with riptides and stormsurges.

Noted.

Space Marines
-Get rid of Gladius. That's really my only hate for them, it's a stupid formation

You hate my 6 free rhinos and free ultramarine chapter tactics that much?

My ability to reroll to hit on my missile launchers ruining your day, man?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
That won't nerf crons. Make reanimation for their last wound or make it an invuln.

I think they should go back to how they (as far as I understand) used to do it.

Make them wait to roll re-animation until the end of the phase. That way, you can at least kill necron units by focus-firing them down to deny them the ability to roll RP.

I think it's more the gak-load of free Razorbacks and Drop Pods that ruin people's days.

 War Kitten wrote:
I think it's more the gak-load of free Razorbacks and Drop Pods that ruin people's days.

I completely agree. Gladius shouldn't confer free razorbacks for 5 man squads, nor should drop pods be a 35 point model.

But throwing out the gladius strike force wholesale?

The 6 free rhinos and free UM chapter tactics I use aren't ruining the game for anybody.

Depends on what you compare them to.

It comes down to what level you want to balance at. I've come to call Necron Decurion and after as "7.5", and the stuff before that "7.0".

Both seemed to be consistent levels of power. But I liked the "7.0" more, myself.

SM didn't need Gladius to play at that level. Their 6ed Dex was easily there.

Turn RP back to the old "lie them down and then roll at the end"

FNP and ressurection protocols shouldn't be an extra save on top of cover/armor/invul - it just makes things too durable.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure what would fix the issue graciously - perhaps extra wounds (say, all Necron infantry go up to 2 wounds apiece?) and make FNP/Res count as a save, so you only get one roll instead of 2?

Also, I agree on the guants. It should be viable to run an entire army of lil' critters. Plus they need some anti-vehicle option - like, say, a swarm attack against vehicles (like army ants taking down larger prey by overwhelming it). Also, fix markerlight cheese - especially the "No cover" ability.

As a Tau player, I wouldn't miss Kroot and Vespids vanishing from the army at all. Personally, I play 1 riptide with burst cannon, so I haven't seen what multiple riptides can do - if its as bad as everyone says, then heck ya, hit 'em with the nerf bat.

I can't comment on Eldar - haven't played as them or battled them.

RP (and FnP) should go back to preventing the removal of the wound, nothing more. It should still count as aneeded Unsaved Wound.

Just drop the Decurion, and T5 3++ Wraiths are the only thing Necrons have beyond stock 7.0 power levels.

3 wound warriors? No thanks.

Make gaunts beasts.

 Traditio wrote:

That way, you can at least kill necron units by focus-firing them down to deny them the ability to roll RP.

That's still how you kill Necron units.

EnTyme wrote:That's still how you kill Necron units.

No.

Just...

No.

The above simply displays a complete failure to understand my point.

What I meant:

"I should only have to bypass 4+ armor and wipe the squad to prevent end of turn re-animations."

I fail to see how you can write the above, given my obvious intent.

 Traditio wrote:

EnTyme wrote:That's still how you kill Necron units.

No.

Just...

No.

The above simply displays a complete failure to understand my point.

What I meant:

"I should only have to bypass 4+ armor and wipe the squad to prevent end of turn re-animations."

I fail to see how you can write the above, given my obvious intent.

If you're using plasma, melta, or grav weapons, you only have to get through a single 4+ (5+ if your opponent isn't in a Decurion).

And your intent wasn't clear. All you said was you should be able to eliminate Necron units by focusing fire. Hence my comment that you can.

EnTyme wrote:If you're using plasma, melta, or grav weapons, you only have to get through a single 4+ (5+ if your opponent isn't in a Decurion).

Therefore Necrons aren't durable to OP levels.

Right.

I believe that we have nothing else to discuss.

Carry on.

Is a 5+ RP as is really that unfun?

They pay a few points less for a Marine (same survivability, usually same firepower), but lose out on all the goodies (weapon upgrades, CT, ATSKNF, Grenades, CC).

Outside a Decurion, seems fair to me.

Bharring wrote:
Is a 5+ RP as is really that unfun?

"Is an army wide 5+ feel no pain that can't be negated by instant death and can be brought to a 4+ feel no pain (possibly rerolling 1s) if you bring the units that you were probably going to bring anyway really all that unfair?"

Yes. Yes it is.

They pay a few points less for a Marine (same survivability, usually same firepower), but lose out on all the goodies (weapon upgrades, CT, ATSKNF, Grenades, CC).

Outside a Decurion, seems fair to me.

I think that the Necrons are criminally undercosted.

A necron warrior is a 13 point model with:

Essentially a marine statline (except I2 instead of 4 and LD 10 instead of 8...so they're actually better than marines in terms of their statline).

A gun that's basically a bolter that auto-wounds/glances on 6s (because why the feth not?).

A non-negatable FNP.

A 4+ armor save instead of a 3+.

Not that it matters, though. Did I mention the non-negatable FNP?

Immortals only cost 17 ppm and get a 3+ save.

So not only are you not removing models, but even if you do remove models, it doesn't even matter, because their leadership is so high that there's no real chance of them falling back or being swept in close combat.

And when you add the decurion, that's a 4+ non-negatable FNP that might be rerolling 1s, depending on what you bring.

A 4+ with a 5+ RP is the same as a 3+ for anything AP5+ - any small arms.

It's worse for anything AP4 by *double*.

It's better for ap3 and better, by 1/3 or 1/6 (depending on ID).

That's a fairly even tradeoff.

As for LD, sure, they're better if you roll a 9 or 10, but much, much worse if you roll an 11 or 12. When it comes to LD, almost nothing beats ATSKNF. Even Fearless is situational.

Don't try to outshoot them toe to toe with Marines. That's what Necrons do. Not Marines.

For 1 point difference, that doesn't seem so bad.

If you want a non-negotiable save, try Demons. They always get a 5++.

RP is good, but without Decurion, what armies are having trouble with them?

BA have trouble with any Necrons. But we can't shoot or assault so go figure.

I'll take the Necron warrior any day of the week because AP 4 is actively avoided (because it sucks!) and getting saves vs AP 3/2/1 weapons is great because they are frequently low ROF.

"Don't try to outshoot them toe to toe with Marines. That's what Necrons do. Not Marines. "

Marines can't beat them in CC, either. Funny that.

Marines can beat them in CC.

I meant don't line up naked Tacs and expect to outshoot them point for point. They're close, but naked Tacs aren't theven best way to field them. These aren't Eldar infantry. Don't treat them as such.

Bharring wrote:
Marines can beat them in CC.

I meant don't line up naked Tacs and expect to outshoot them point for point. They're close, but naked Tacs aren't theven best way to field them. These aren't Eldar infantry. Don't treat them as such.

Please describe the marine units that can beat them in CC. You won't list any, but you WILL list things that aren't marines. Like TWC. Assault squads and tac squads don't really have a chance. Against really anything anymore. Guardsmen? Firewarriors? Okay.

The best way to field tacs is to not field them. Or in free transports if you must.

Run some numbers. Point for point, even a naked Tacs squad wins in CC. ASM do it better. AND that's Vanilla. BA have FC.

But you're BA. Ever podded in a Heavy Flamer on Necron Warriors? Those wound on 3s and only get their 5+ RP.

It may not frequently work out that way when you hold your ground and consider your Tacs garbage while facing a Decurion. But you're not as hosed as you think you are.

Bharring wrote:
Run some numbers. Point for point, even a naked Tacs squad wins in CC. ASM do it better. AND that's Vanilla. BA have FC.

But you're BA. Ever podded in a Heavy Flamer on Necron Warriors? Those wound on 3s and only get their 5+ RP.

It may not frequently work out that way when you hold your ground and consider your Tacs garbage while facing a Decurion. But you're not as hosed as you think you are.

I'm pretty fething hosed. Necrons don't care about my assault squads, they don't care about FC. They don't care about heavy flamers, because I shoot them once and then get crushed in return. I have not a single efficient way to engage them.

Bharring wrote:
Run some numbers. Point for point, even a naked Tacs squad wins in CC. ASM do it better. AND that's Vanilla. BA have FC.

Necron vs. Marines: 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/3 = 1/12. Every 12 swings from a necron warrior will kill a marine.

Marines vs. Necrons: 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 2/3 = 2/24 = 1/12. Every 12 swings from a marine will kill a necron warrior.

Marines vs. Necrons w/ decurion: 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 X 1/2 = 1/16. Every 16 swings from a marine will kill a necron warrior with a 4+ RP.

The only sense in which marines are better in CC than necron warriors is because they hit first. But when faced with a 4+ armor save and a 4+ (possibly rerollable) RP, what does it matter?

The marines aren't going to do enough damage to force the Necrons to fall back and sweep them, and even if they do, necrons are LD 10.

Necron warriors shouldn't be 13 ppm. They should be as expensive as, if not more expensive than, marines.

Let's put that to the test.
7 Tacs with a HF and pod vs 10 Warriors.

Pod in. Place the best you can. Flame what, 4 guys?
(4)(2/3)(1)(2/3) is about 2 dead Necrons.
Krak grenade
(2/3)(1)(2/3) is half a dead Necron
Bolt guns is
5x2 (2/3)(1/2)(2/3) is about 2 dead necrons.

5.5 remaining necrons shoot back. They kill about 2 Marines.
HF + Krak kill another 2.5.

You could assault now if you want (5 Marines vs 3 Necrons), leading with bolt pistols. You both hit on 4s and save 2/3s of wounds. You hit first, and wound on 3s. And get +1A for assaulting. You'd win even if outnumbered.

This very much goes the BA way

There are problems, but BA can handle regular Warriors.

I never use HF in pods, though, because they are immobile and therefore dead after dropping.

It's not unit vs unit in practice it's army vs army. The necrons are supporting each other with shooting while the hapless BA are limited by how many things we can cram into pods in your scenario.

Trad,
I'm not saying the Decurion is fair.

Also, hitting first really does matter a lot.

Finally, CT matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So you never use the stuff that can beat Necron Warriors, because your Dex has better stuff. But nothing that can touch Necron Warriors?

Martel732 wrote:

Please describe the marine units that can beat them in CC. You won't list any, but you WILL list things that aren't marines. Like TWC. Assault squads and tac squads don't really have a chance.

Uh, not really sure about your reasoning here. Given the choice between shooting at Necron Warriors with Tac Marines and charging, you're pretty much always better off charging. Warriors lack anything to help them in melee, or even the option to take anything. Am I missing something here? Or am I the only one that actually gives his sergeant a power weapon still?

Bharring wrote:
Trad,
I'm not saying the Decurion is fair.

Also, hitting first really does matter a lot.

Finally, CT matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So you never use the stuff that can beat Necron Warriors, because your Dex has better stuff. But nothing that can touch Necron Warriors?

No, it's not better necessarily. It just doesn't automatically lose maelstrom.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Aben Zin wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Please describe the marine units that can beat them in CC. You won't list any, but you WILL list things that aren't marines. Like TWC. Assault squads and tac squads don't really have a chance.

Uh, not really sure about your reasoning here. Given the choice between shooting at Necron Warriors with Tac Marines and charging, you're pretty much always better off charging. Warriors lack anything to help them in melee, or even the option to take anything. Am I missing something here?

You're missing the fact that base marines are terrible at CC. Including assault marines. Even BA ones. With a priest. We pay a lot of points to fail at CC.

Bharring wrote:
Also, hitting first really does matter a lot.

Given the fact that nobody is likely to damage anybody, it really doesn't. Statistically speaking, if I charge a necron warrior squad with a 5 man squad of marines, I would be lucky even to kill a single warrior (without the decurion bonus). It doesn't matter if the Necrons strike first and kill practically nobody, if the marines strike first and kill practically nobody, or if both strike at the same time and kill practically nobody.

The fact remains that practically nothing happens.

And even if the odds are in my favor and I kill one, the fact remains that they have LD 10. They aren't getting swept.

Finally, CT matters.

My ability to reroll 1s to hit on bolt weaponry and reroll failed pens vs. buildings and vehicles with my devastators aren't going to help me kill necron warriors in close combat.