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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

I've got her part painted and I had a bit of spare time and decided to have a practice monster vs monster game. I can math-hammer stuff but I am really looking at a vacuum. So, 600ish point versus 300ish Bloodthirster. Alarielle gets first turn..but dies in two turns. Barely scratched the Bloodthirster and that was mostly her magic.

I get that they have to balance these things, but shes a Goddess. In one story she kills two Bloodthirsters by herself, one without even the help of her mount. In another she beats the Glotkin. So, making the rules so that she gets pretty easily killed by a normal Bloodthrister is a bit off, especially since she is double its points. To my mind that should by like a kitted out Praetor killing a Primarch in two turns. Stuff like that is extremely untrue to the story. You're telling me that a being which is defying the full attention of a Chaos God and winning; gets killed by Joe from Accounts?

To me that demonstrates that shes not reliable at fighting other monsters, in which case I am paying through the nose in points for a ton of redundant abilities and I have to bubble wrap her against other monsters. Which defeats the point since that could buy me two Spirits of Durthu instead, or three units of Kurnoth hunters.

For one you can't use her summoning and that is part of her points value; in fact I think a good third of her points GW has attributed to this ability. Plus, her heal ability does not work on herself but only on other Sylvaneth units. I had to argue this a bit with the guy since it says all friendly Sylvaneth models within 30'' of Alarielle and I don't see how that excludes her exactly. Only 16 wounds its really not that difficult to kill her.

The beetle, like a lot of Sylvaneth units, has a horrible hit chance of 4+, she has a pretty mediocre shooting attack. Her spells are limited in that she can only cast her good spell once and its not even that damaging compared to Drycha who murders everything by simply existing. So you're basically left to gamble that the talon of dwindling gets a lucky wound and you roll over his wounds on two dice. That's basically the only chance I had of killing the bloodthirster. I did almost do this because I rolled a ten and he had 11 wounds left.

So, she seems like an obscenely expensive unit to provide a D3 healing bubble. You could buy 6 Branchwychs and have them cast a D6 heal spell from the Syl spells instead. Theres plenty of other units that do better combat for far cheaper in the Sylvaneth army and certainly in other armies.

I think the guy made the case that the Bloodthirster is a monster killer...which, yeah Sigismund is a character killer; you don't send him one on one against Horus. Not from a gameplay and certainly not from a lore standpoint.


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in ca
Bloodthirsty Bloodletter




The Eye of Terror

Her heal ability should work on herself according to the FAQ.

Also, what type of Bloodthirster is it?

Also, Matched play is different from Narrative play. Fluff is more prominent in the latter.

I mean, a D6 + D3 healing per phase is still pretty hard to put down.



 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

One with the two handed axe.

Well the fluff implies she can kill a bloodthirster. That's not really true in the rules irrespective of if you play narrative or matched.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/23 22:05:19



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in ca
Bloodthirsty Bloodletter




The Eye of Terror

I'm not seeing why she couldn't. A shooting attack that deals D6. 4 normal attacks. 5 attacks that deal consistent 5 damage. And healing every turn.

How is that losing to a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage that only has 4 attacks dealing inconsistent D6 damage that hits on a 4+?



 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Space Marine






Alarrielle is a beast. Can heal 2d3 with her abilities plus a d6 with regrow spell. Also she can easily 1v1 Nagash as long as he doesn't do hand of dust.

-They shall be my finest Ultrasmurfs. Built and painted so that they may wreck the faces of those that oppose them!
-My young pupil... you seem to have this unholy addiction to Ultramarines. WE MUST TEST YOU FOR HERESY. -Inquisitor mean man
Ultramarine army- 10k
Imperial knights- 2
Vampire counts- 2k
Eternity King- 3k
Dark Eldar: Eternal Thorn 1300pts
And lots of other armies, I just cant fit them here
 
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM





Welcome to another Totalwar1402 thread where he tries to plead the case of Sylvaneth being the most over pointed faction in the game because he keeps losing to his friends.

At this point I just feel like saying "learn to play". You have one of the best factions in the game so stop complaining.

Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-) 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

He was rolling a lot more than four dice and they were hitting on 3s with minus 2 rend. Did 10 wounds in first round. Think he might have even got some re rolls.

The beetle damage goes down as its wounded.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/23 23:11:52



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Bottle wrote:
Welcome to another Totalwar1402 thread where he tries to plead the case of Sylvaneth being the most over pointed faction in the game because he keeps losing to his friends.

At this point I just feel like saying "learn to play". You have one of the best factions in the game so stop complaining.

To be honest I wouldn't mind some L2P threads.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

 Bottle wrote:
Welcome to another Totalwar1402 thread where he tries to plead the case of Sylvaneth being the most over pointed faction in the game because he keeps losing to his friends.

At this point I just feel like saying "learn to play". You have one of the best factions in the game so stop complaining.


They're a terrible faction. Aside from a few solid units in Kurnoth, Durthu and Drycha they really don't stack up to the other factions and have poor synergy. I constantly feel like my dryads, revanants and tree lords are just horrible units that get splattered by their opposite number all the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/23 23:18:21



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 Totalwar1402 wrote:
 Bottle wrote:
Welcome to another Totalwar1402 thread where he tries to plead the case of Sylvaneth being the most over pointed faction in the game because he keeps losing to his friends.

At this point I just feel like saying "learn to play". You have one of the best factions in the game so stop complaining.


They're a terrible faction. Aside from a few solid units in Kurnoth, Durthu and Drycha they really don't stack up to the other factions and have poor synergy. I constantly feel like my dryads, revanants and tree lords are just horrible units that get splattered by their opposite number all the time.

There's some pretty obvious synergy with Treelord Ancients, Hunters and other units. How are you using them?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Well I am just using stuff as I get it painted. My problem is that most of the units have mediocre hit chance and there's no way of boosting that.

What I use also depends on the scale of the game which is quite low ATM.

What I have got ATM:

Alarielle
Dry ha
Durthu
Tree lord
Ancient
Branchwych
3 squads of 3 Kurnoth one with each weapon type
Squad of 10 revanents
3 squads of 16 dryads

Tend to take few squads of dryads and then some leader or elite unit as I can.


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Sylvaneth are a good faction, but difficult to play well compared to many others. What armies do you usually face, and what is your strategy generally like?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Chaos demons

Flesh eater courts

Stormcast

I usually saturate my end of the board with tree and then place my free wood in the enemies deployment zone. I then try to use the woods to gain some sort of numbers advantage or attack his leaders/war machines. But the problem I have is my units being straight up outclassed in an attrition battle. Basically he just steamrolls my line. Lots of units, especially my dryads, revanents and tree lords end up under performing. Most of those armies are harder to kill or do more damage and mortal wounds. They also have a lot more ways of buffing their units.


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in au
Lady of the Lake






pm713 wrote:
 Totalwar1402 wrote:
 Bottle wrote:
Welcome to another Totalwar1402 thread where he tries to plead the case of Sylvaneth being the most over pointed faction in the game because he keeps losing to his friends.

At this point I just feel like saying "learn to play". You have one of the best factions in the game so stop complaining.


They're a terrible faction. Aside from a few solid units in Kurnoth, Durthu and Drycha they really don't stack up to the other factions and have poor synergy. I constantly feel like my dryads, revanants and tree lords are just horrible units that get splattered by their opposite number all the time.

There's some pretty obvious synergy with Treelord Ancients, Hunters and other units. How are you using them?

Clearly the answer is "Poorly"

   
Made in us
Stabbin' Skarboy




Pittsburgh

I don't know there is a guy around here who does pretty well with a simple list. He's trying out revenants and they are hit or miss but normally he brings an ancient or durthu, about 20 dryads that he sticks in a big wildwood in his zone, a branchwytch, a branchwraith, and either kurnoth of some sort or the revenants. I probably have his list misremembered but I know those are the units he uses most. The dryads are quite good in cover and over I think its 12 models. Then they have +2 to their cover, cause -1 to hit them due to being in the wood, and can hit on 3s in their turn. The dryads are what he uses to keep my minotaurs away and they are the most durable troop I've run into yet. I don't know all the synergies but they are a pretty good faction.

My Armies:
Orks about 15000-16000 mostly unpainted but slowly being worked on
Militarum Tempestus about 2000 points just built
Inquisition about 2000 points unpainted
Officio Assassinorum 570 unpainted
I dont paint quickly 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Today is a sad day. It finally happened. "Not worth the points".

Now we have become 40K and Fantasy now. How sad.

Just play what you want. Have fun. She is an awesome mini. Has Age of Sigmar become "we must win with plastic toy soldiers" now?

No matter how botched AoS was last year, at least one good thing came out of it. People loved playing with plastic toy soldiers for fun. Now it has become about winning again.

A sad day indeed.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Davor wrote:
Just play what you want. Have fun. She is an awesome mini. Has Age of Sigmar become "we must win with plastic toy soldiers" now?
While I think condemning the whole of AoS for the opinion of one individual is a bit extreme, I agree with this sentiment.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Honestly this is still far better than before to me.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Davor wrote:

Just play what you want. Have fun. She is an awesome mini. Has Age of Sigmar become "we must win with plastic toy soldiers" now?


It still is for fun. Some people just don't find any enjoyment in it if they don't have a chance of winning.

I really don't get this sentiment, that everything competitive is inherently bad or un-fun. For me, it's not. To me, AoS is a game of trying to perfect strategy and tactics, of making the correct decisions in any giving situation in order to grow and become more skilled as a player. Whether I win or not is entirely secondary, but if I don't try to win I simply do not enjoy the game.

Anyway, back to the matter at hand. If you read Alarielle's rules, it is clear that she does not specialize in 1v1 combat. She specializes in strengthening the rest of her army, she is a support character. She heals herself and her whole army every turn, she casts and dispels three times per turn. She is strong in combat, and especially so against small and medium-sized enemies due to her talon and the beetle's sweeping blows. She has nothing in her kit that makes her particularly strong against large monsters like bloodthirsters - the talon will always need double sixes to kill them, regardless of how damaged they are (you roll against the targets wound characteristic, not against its remaining wounds). The bloodthirster, on the other hand, is a purebred monster, it's strength lies precisely in dealing massive amounts of damage. It's quite obvious that she will not, and should not, beat a bloodthirster 1v1, because it's not her job to do so. Her strengths lie in entirely different areas.

Whether she is strong or weak at her current cost, I don't know, because I have not played with or against her. However, with the General's Handbook being released yesterday, I would say that it is much to early to judge.
   
Made in us
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant





Illinois

Davor wrote:
Today is a sad day. It finally happened. "Not worth the points".

Now we have become 40K and Fantasy now. How sad.

Just play what you want. Have fun. She is an awesome mini. Has Age of Sigmar become "we must win with plastic toy soldiers" now?

No matter how botched AoS was last year, at least one good thing came out of it. People loved playing with plastic toy soldiers for fun. Now it has become about winning again.

A sad day indeed.


Aos had no points, aos needed no points

RoperPG wrote:
Blimey, it's very salty in here...
Any more vegans want to put forth their opinions on bacon?
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




 namiel wrote:
Davor wrote:
Today is a sad day. It finally happened. "Not worth the points".

Now we have become 40K and Fantasy now. How sad.

Just play what you want. Have fun. She is an awesome mini. Has Age of Sigmar become "we must win with plastic toy soldiers" now?

No matter how botched AoS was last year, at least one good thing came out of it. People loved playing with plastic toy soldiers for fun. Now it has become about winning again.

A sad day indeed.


Aos had no points, aos needed no points

In your opinion.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka




Sorry to the Original Poster for derailing his thread. Wasn't my intention. Just wasn't feeling good and just reading the statement upset me a bit more for having a bad weekend.

For that I deeply apologize.

Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.

Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?

Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".  
   
Made in au
Nimble Pistolier




ACT, Australia

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage only gets 4 attacks when at full HP. they hit on 4+ wound on 2+ (6s get the bow wave mortal wounds) and has -2 rend and D6 damage. The BToIR can reroll hit rolls of 1 on the charge. From what you have said above I feel like your opponent is either cheating or using outside abilities (like a bloodsecrator) to increase the BToIRs abilities in the dual.

I have more often than not seen the BToIR go up against a basic unit of Liberators, fluffed its attack rolls, and be smashed in reply. My all time favourite was when my cannon crew fought a BLoIR off and then shot him point blank in the next turn and killed him.
   
Made in gb
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




England

Oh you must be taking the . How has someone already found a way to complain about AoS AGAIN.

To answer the question, no. Alarielle is worth her points because she isn't all about fighting. She heals, and summons as well, which is partly what makes her points go up.

I also don't understand why using the fluff is even used for what should happen from a gaming standpoint anymore. If a lone Space Marine could take out an Imperial Guard line by himself, that would be pretty broken in the game. Yet, that's the comparison you're making with Alarielle and the BT.

If you can't believe in yourself, believe in me! Believe in the Dakka who believes in you!  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Which would be fine if the Bloodthirster was similar points and the lore didn't explicitly portray Alarielle as killing two bloodthirsters by herself. We re not talking about Archaon here.

I mean Alarielle is a Goddess, the Bloodthirster is still just a normal demon at the end of te day. It should be better than a Durthu or Treelord but doing that is pretty silly.

I just don't think her abilities add up to 700 points of stuff. It's essentially an overpriced heal bubble. When you could take that 700 points and just buy more Kurnoth or Durthu. You re then saddled with protecting Alarielle from other monsters which is restrictive as she needs to be bubble wrapped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 WarbossDakka wrote:
Oh you must be taking the . How has someone already found a way to complain about AoS AGAIN.

To answer the question, no. Alarielle is worth her points because she isn't all about fighting. She heals, and summons as well, which is partly what makes her points go up.

I also don't understand why using the fluff is even used for what should happen from a gaming standpoint anymore. If a lone Space Marine could take out an Imperial Guard line by himself, that would be pretty broken in the game. Yet, that's the comparison you're making with Alarielle and the BT.


No the analogy I am making is Primarches in the Horus Heresy. They can be killed. But not by a Praetor in one on one combat who is roughly half his price. Which is basically the same thing. A combat praetor versus a support Primarch. Te support Primarch should still win.

I have to pay points for that summoning and its completely random so I might not get the unit or numbers I want and I can't select te lower heal ability. Not only that but that heal ability does not work on Alarielle herself. In other words a redundant ability.

A d3 heal is not good for 700 points. Even for the entire army. She has no other buff outside of that. No way of boosting other Syl units outside of her one turn only command ability. Which sucks because Syl need bonuses to hit, not re rolls to wound.

So you saying if Archaon got minced by a standard Bloodthirster on a good day that would be okay?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/25 09:32:23



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block




 Totalwar1402 wrote:

I have to pay points for that summoning and its completely random so I might not get the unit or numbers I want and I can't select te lower heal ability. Not only that but that heal ability does not work on Alarielle herself. In other words a redundant ability.

A d3 heal is not good for 700 points. Even for the entire army. She has no other buff outside of that. No way of boosting other Syl units outside of her one turn only command ability. Which sucks because Syl need bonuses to hit, not re rolls to wound.

So you saying if Archaon got minced by a standard Bloodthirster on a good day that would be okay?


OK in a similar vein to the previous time I replied to one of your posts about how bad Sylvaneth are, you need to actually make sure you and your opponent ARE PLAYING THE ACTUAL RULES.

In terms of the Bloodthirster, you need to make sure that your opponent is rolling the right amount of dice, and applying the rules correctly. The Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage has 4 ATTACKS - IT HITS ON 4+, ON THE CHARGE RE-ROLLS ONES. 6's TO WOUND DOES MORTAL WOUNDS. IF HE DID ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT HE CHEATED.

So, Alarielle is faster and has a shooting attack. So one on one why not drop back and shoot the Bloodthirster with your 30" bolt thrower attack? You can also cast spells. You can take the Reaping. This then gives you three damage spells - realistically you should be able to get a couple of spells per turn, and you have the potential of doing 3 + 3 + 12 mortals wounds. In terms of combat, your speed should enable you to get the charge in and go first and do plenty of damage. For healing you get the D3 per hero phase, and the Soul Amphorae specifically says that you can choose a lower result than what you rolled - you can always choose to heal, the FAQ has clarified that models are always 'within' the range of their abilities so she gains that additional D3 heal. You could choose the Regrowth spell if you wanted more healing and less damage.

The fight should go like this. You let your opponent go first, and you are deployed 24" apart. He moves up 10" and ends his turn. From 14" you cast Metamorphosis and Arcane Bolt. For the sake of argument only the bolt hits and does 2 damage. You cast mystic shield on yourself. You move to within 3". You shoot and have about a 50% chance of doing D6 damage. Pretend nothing. You charge. Talon does nothing. Wardroth Antlers gets through once doing five damage (based on averages). Bloodthrister attacks back and on average rolls gets through maybe one hit doing about 4 damage. Next turn assume he goes first and assume nothing (with mystic shield up he only has about a 20% chance to hurt you, so with 7 wounds lost and 3 attacks he is only likely to hit you once every two turns). Your turn you heal on average 4 wounds - back to full health. You cast Metamorphosis, Arcane Bolt and the Reaping. Reasonable to assume about 5 mortal wounds inflicted. Shooting should then kill him.

I struggle to see how anything else could have happened. Alarielle is faster, has more wounds, has a better save, has shooting, does more damage in combat, is a massively potent magician, has healing, and has an outstanding command ability. Unfortunately I am tending to agree with Bottle, the issue is not the Sylvaneth, the issue is you.
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




I think you're reading the rule wrong. Alarielle can always choose the heal over the summons, because she can always select a lower result on the roll if she wants to. It also heals her, on top of every other Sylvaneth model within 30", because she has the Sylvaneth keyword. Check the faq. As such, it is in no way a redundant ability - it's strong as heck, and boosts the survivability of both Alarielle herself, and every other Sylvaneth unit in her proximity.

I also think your reasoning is off. You always protect your support units from threats, that's basic strategy. It's not about "bubble wrapping", it's about choosing your battles. Which you should always be doing. You can't just plonk her down and think "She's 700 points, so she must be invincible", if you do that you're bound to lose. You have to play to her strengths.

Then there are some other issues. I assume you are playing 2000 point battles? In that case, if you want to optimize your army, Alarielle might not be worth taking. The same goes for Nagash, Archaon, and the likes. They are simply too big and expensive to fit into a battle of that size. If you field them, you lose out on so many other options that your army turns into a one-trick pony. If you play 2000 points, try leaving her out and using other Leaders instead. I think you will find that your army as a whole feels much larger and stronger then. God-tier characters have their niche in large battles, that's where they shine.

Then we come to the Sylvaneth army as a whole. Unlike Stormcast, Flesh-Eaters and to some extent Chaos Daemons (depending on the god), Sylvaneth are not an army designed to face the enemy head on. You said that your units often lose fights against their contemporaries in other armies, and that's by design. It's supposed to be like that, because Sylvaneth have strong tools that the others don't have. You don't want to play a fair fight, you want to use misdirection and guerilla warfare. You want to annoy your enemy, lure him into your woods, use your teleportation to overwhelm parts of his army and annihilate it while the rest of his army is occupied somewhere elsewhere on the table. You can't face him head on, so you need to play an attrition battle and maneuver so that you only ever get into a fight when you have a numerical advantage.

I also don't think that the fluff analogy is very interesting. You can argue an unlimited amount of things based on fluff (one space marine should beat an entire company of imperial guard and so on and so forth). That doesn't mean that these things are good to implement in the game. For the sake of creating a fun and interesting game, fluff and gameplay have to be kept separate. You can't argue what Alarielle should be able to do in the game based on what she does in the fluff, and say that she's not worth her points because she's unable to do that. You should instead focus on what she CAN do, based on her rules. Figure out how to use her correctly, implement it, and then start thinking about whether she's worth her points or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/07/25 10:48:38


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Well I don't know, he had more than 4 attacks and he was hitting on 3s. I can't really call him a liar and I am not going
to know the stats of an army I don't own.

Yes, I disputed that with him on the summoning and the heal. I didn't want to get into an argument so I didn't press the issue. He was adamant on both those points. Remember this wasn't matched play but a whats better so I don't know why he was insistent on the no summoning since I did have the models.

The Bloodthirster also had some very powerful shooting attacks, a chain and a fire breath.

I can only cast so much and heal so much in two turns. We started off in base contact and rolled for priority. Her magic was the only thing that damaged him.


Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
Made in au
Been Around the Block




 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Well I don't know, he had more than 4 attacks and he was hitting on 3s. I can't really call him a liar and I am not going
to know the stats of an army I don't own.

Yes, I disputed that with him on the summoning and the heal. I didn't want to get into an argument so I didn't press the issue. He was adamant on both those points. Remember this wasn't matched play but a whats better so I don't know why he was insistent on the no summoning since I did have the models.

The Bloodthirster also had some very powerful shooting attacks, a chain and a fire breath.

I can only cast so much and heal so much in two turns. We started off in base contact and rolled for priority. Her magic was the only thing that damaged him.


OK, what you are describing is a Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster which is a monster hunter. However my first point still stands - in every conceivable way Alarielle is the stronger of the two. You don't need to call him a liar, just play by the actual rules and use the FAQs released by GW. Also, if you want an actual comparison don't do a set up that basically makes his job easier. You are faster, have a better ranged attack as well as magic and minor damage won't stick, so why not a realistic set up of being 24" apart and go from there.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





England: Newcastle

Solaris wrote:
I think you're reading the rule wrong. Alarielle can always choose the heal over the summons, because she can always select a lower result on the roll if she wants to. It also heals her, on top of every other Sylvaneth model within 30", because she has the Sylvaneth keyword. Check the faq. As such, it is in no way a redundant ability - it's strong as heck, and boosts the survivability of both Alarielle herself, and every other Sylvaneth unit in her proximity.

I also think your reasoning is off. You always protect your support units from threats, that's basic strategy. It's not about "bubble wrapping", it's about choosing your battles. Which you should always be doing. You can't just plonk her down and think "She's 700 points, so she must be invincible", if you do that you're bound to lose. You have to play to her strengths.

Then there are some other issues. I assume you are playing 2000 point battles? In that case, if you want to optimize your army, Alarielle might not be worth taking. The same goes for Nagash, Archaon, and the likes. They are simply too big and expensive to fit into a battle of that size. If you field them, you lose out on so many other options that your army turns into a one-trick pony. If you play 2000 points, try leaving her out and using other Leaders instead. I think you will find that your army as a whole feels much larger and stronger then. God-tier characters have their niche in large battles, that's where they shine.

Then we come to the Sylvaneth army as a whole. Unlike Stormcast, Flesh-Eaters and to some extent Chaos Daemons (depending on the god), Sylvaneth are not an army designed to face the enemy head on. You said that your units often lose fights against their contemporaries in other armies, and that's by design. It's supposed to be like that, because Sylvaneth have strong tools that the others don't have. You don't want to play a fair fight, you want to use misdirection and guerilla warfare. You want to annoy your enemy, lure him into your woods, use your teleportation to overwhelm parts of his army and annihilate it while the rest of his army is occupied somewhere elsewhere on the table. You can't face him head on, so you need to play an attrition battle and maneuver so that you only ever get into a fight when you have a numerical advantage.

I also don't think that the fluff analogy is very interesting. You can argue an unlimited amount of things based on fluff (one space marine should beat an entire company of imperial guard and so on and so forth). That doesn't mean that these things are good to implement in the game. For the sake of creating a fun and interesting game, fluff and gameplay have to be kept separate. You can't argue what Alarielle should be able to do in the game based on what she does in the fluff, and say that she's not worth her points because she's unable to do that. You should instead focus on what she CAN do, based on her rules. Figure out how to use her correctly, implement it, and then start thinking about whether she's worth her points or not.


No we play 1000 pt battles on 4 by 4 boards. Most battles are blobs of melee infantry which rush forward. This really limits any opportunities to swarm isolated units and there are no benefits to flanking or attacking the rear so there not a whole lot I can do. Also it's usually just kill everything no objectives. The game doesn't allow for anything like guerilla warfare. Pure meat grinder where you try to fix your priority and charges in your favour. So the Syl army as a whole just isn't able to compete, I have to get the first turn and that mean I have to be outside of my woods. If I let him charge me then I am in big trouble.

This wasn't a points battle it was a pure friendly what happens thing after we finished our main battle. I had brought the beetle for painting it up and was curious about how good she was.

Well the fluff difference usually isn't that extreme.

Also 700 points, you could buy a titan in 40k for that. I think you wouldn't be far of getting a reaver with that.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/07/25 12:26:41



Starting Sons of Horus Legion

Starting Daughters of Khaine

2000pts Sisters of Silence

4000pts Fists Legion
Sylvaneth A forest
III Legion 5000pts
XIII Legion 9000pts
Hive Fleet Khadrim 5000pts
Kabal of the Torn Lotus .4000pts
Coalition of neo Sacea 5000pts



 
   
 
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