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Hello Gents,

I have a serious question, and need opinions from outside my gaming group.

I run a melee themed Space Wolves force, it's the only 'marine'-type army I can stand, because tacticals, Devs, scouts, about 80% of space marine units are very boring to me.

Anyway, I adore the Thunder wolf Calvary, dreads, rune priests, Logan on sleigh, and wulfen units. My army lists tend to only consist of the said items.

Ex.

2,000 pts Champions of Fenris Detachment.

HQ
Wolf Lord - Runic Armor, Felclaw necklace, Hammer, Shield, Mount.
Iron Priest - Mount, Tempest Hammer

Elite
Ven. Dread Shield, and axe
Ven Dread Shield, and axe
Murderfang, Lucious Patter Drop pod

Fast Attack
6x Thunder Calv, all with shields

That's usually the basis and I switch the rest usually with

Bjorn, The murderpack formation (2 wulfen units) each wulfen unit having 2 TH/SS, 3 FC, 3 shoulder guns, Wyrdstorm Brotherhood Rune priests on bikes, one with the helm of durfast, and lastly Logan on the sleigh.


I have a very high win record with this army, even against decurion, skyhammer, and invisible knights. (im not bragging, I do get spanked by a Tzeentch daemon player, and a inquisitor with psychotroke grenades)

A lot of people have told me this army is 'broken' I'm starting to feel like it's as bad as tau and eldar cheese lists, should I be thinking that?

I personally don't care too much, because this army is essentially all melee (minus the 4d6 shots from the rune formation, I like thinking im a sith ), and I love it for that, but I also don't want to discourage other players by thinking im a guy who 'wins at all costs' because I've never been that way.

Much like most of the SM codex it isn't the statline of the model your paying 30pts for, it is the plethora of rules that accompany that stat line that makes this model so broken.

Special Rules: Acute sense, you get to reroll what table edge you come on from reserve. Not bad, not amazing but not bad.

ATSKNF: Yeah.....amazing

Bounding Lope: Run and assault as well as reroll failed charge rolls....in other words this is Waaaagh! but better........and can happen on 1st turn and doesn't need an expensive character to be alive to use. AMAZING

Counter-Attack: great rule, basically makes them a beast in CC regardless of who charges who.

Curse of the Wulfen: Ok....its called a bloody Curse, why is it a BUFF instead of a nerf? I won't go over both tables, nor will I go over each individually. Go take a peak and tell me how that is a curse?

Death Frenzy: Wow, if you kill any wulfen in CC they get to attack you again, regardless of Initiative step.......

FNP: 5+ FNP, very good.

and finally Rage. +2 attacks on the charge. Or counter charge as well. In other words each Wulfen gets 6 attacks EACH on the 1st turn of CC.

All of that on a model that is 30ppm. My Nobz by comparison are 22ppm (with eavy Armor) and have basically none of those amazing buffs, they also don't have S5, I5, LD8. So in other words your paying 8ppm for all of those amazing special rules that make Wulfen a beast mode unit. I would gladly pay another 8ppm for my nobz to have HALF of those special rules.

So in other words, Yes, Wulfen are broken and a bit OP.

If people are complaining or your win rate is really high, I'd suggest saving it for people running tournament lists like Skyhammer, GSF, Decurion, and competitive Eldar and Tau.

Run something else against more casual lists.

Ehm they are on the high side of 7,5 powr lv.
So are the too strong ? Vs tooled up other 7.5 armies, not at all. Vs armies that are under 7,5 pwr lv kinda.
But here is the thing, winning or losing all the time vs a player kinda gets boring quick. So even if your list ins't that bad compared to theirs you could think off handicapping it a bit to have more fun while gaming.

A possessed marine is 30 points with mark of nurgle...

But I think Wulfen are very cool and I might as well proxy my possessed as Wulfen. Might as well proxy my entire Chaos Space Marine force as Space Wolves.

Wulfen are really strong for sure and when compared to Nobz (probably the closest model in terms of stat lines and combat role) its laughable how bad the vanilla Nob is and how powerful the Wulfen is in comparison. That being said Wulfen fall short when it comes to moving around the battlefield as they need to run on foot or take an extremely overpriced transport (land raider) or an expensive flying transport (Stormwolf) that can allow a charge on turn 3 at the earliest but reserve rolls can push that to turn 4+. Compare that to the Nobz (Meganobz usually as they outclass Nobz by a ton) who have a 35 point fast open topped transport to rocket them across the battle field for a turn 2 charge.

With delivery being a real short coming for the Wulfen and their relatively limited durability with 4+ armor, 2 wound, and FNP or 3+ invuln with SS. This makes them relatively vulnerable to mass fire from medium strength AP 4 shooting (not all that uncommon) or Str 8+ instant killing them. Getting into close combat with them is suicide as they will murder whatever they touch but this is a shooting edition so its not difficult to hit them before they close the gap. Again they are still quite powerful but they are foot sloggers in a game that favors shooting and 12" movement.

Where the Wulfen are broken IMO isn't in their melee capability (which is definitely super powerful but not unstoppable) but their "Curse". Wulfen when slogging across the field make every nearby SW turn into a high mobility and melee murder machine, particularly the Bloodclaw type units. If you take the Wulfen formation with just 2 units of Wulfen then you are giving your claw units a 50% chance to have enhanced movement that can allow for some crazy long charges. +3 to move, run, and charge on a unit like Skyclaws is basically turn 1 charge power and if you roll a 7 result then you get to move twice for 24" of movement and then make your normal charge. You can take these "assault marines" who have 4 attacks on the charge that cost the same as a tactical and charge them into the enemy front lines turn 1. Same for TWC and Iron Priest on wolf with cyberwolves but they need to be closer to the Wulfen to benefit. It is this synergy that I think makes Wulfen crazy powerful above just being walking death in CC.

I wish Nobz could be remotely close to as good as Wulfen.

 Vankraken wrote:

I wish Nobz could be remotely close to as good as Wulfen.

Don't we all. :\

Your question really needs defining. The question is implying we should compare Wulfen to something, but you haven't said what. I guess you are referring to a general level of power but are 7.5 codices the 'correct' power level or are 7.0? And do you mean too strong for the their points cost or do you mean units of this power break the game no matter the points cost.

As an Ork and Blood Angel player, yes they are a bit too 'special'. They still die well enough but the damage they can do and the utility they provide are exceptional for the cost. If it was the only 'over powered' unit you brought to a casual game, no worries let them have their fun. As I say, they will likely die but you'll have a blast running amok with them. If they are supported by thunderwolf-star + librarius conclave then I'm likely to ask you to tone down you list or I'll play someone else or go home and enjoy some painting instead. As oldzoggy wisely said

oldzoggy wrote:But here is the thing, winning or losing all the time vs a player kinda gets boring quick. So even if your list isn't that bad compared to theirs you could think off handicapping it a bit to have more fun while gaming.

If I was playing scatter bike spam, super friends or one of the stronger codices, then no, they are not really overpowered, go wild with them. They are a threat that is easily eliminated, the trick is doing it before they have done their job and its possible to do that with those armies.

They're a melee unit in an edition that doesn't like melee... they do pretty well but broken and overpowered? Nah...

Death Frenzy and Curs of the Wulfen makes them a little too strong IMO, particularly Death Frenzy which forces anything you send against them to be pretty much a suicide unit.

Well of course they are OP, they cost 60 bucks a box

As others have stated; Wulfen are very powerful once in close combat where they really do just EAT other forces for breakfast, until they come across something that's immune to their attacks, and then they GET EATEN instead. Add to this that they are insanely fast-moving with Run & Charge, and you have a unit that unless your army is designed to not die to them, well... their army will die to them.

So ask yourself this; are you losing because of your opponent's tactics/strategy, or are you losing because of your opponent's army choice?

Ask a friend to swap armies and try playing from the other side. Get an experience for how it feels to be on the receiving end. Because, even if a unit is powerful, there is still a "fun zone". Jetbikes (not max scatbikes, just regular jetbikes) are a powerful but FUN unit. It's fun to chase them down, because it's tricky, but rewarding! When you do "catch" them, you can often kill them, or at least make them break (which hurts, a lot). I've played with and against Jetbikes, and so long as a player doesn't go nuts with buffing them, they are a VERY fun unit for both players!

Are the Wulfen a FUN unit? I couldn't say from personal experience, because I've yet to face them, but from the sounds of it the answer is "no". The people that tend to beat you, well, it sounds like they're just beating you because they just negate your army. Tzeentch psykers flying around the table unable to be assaulted? No wonder you lose to that with a nearly all-close-combat army (though it sounds like you should be winning on objectives here). And two of the 6 possibilities for psychotroke grenades completely neuters the Wulfen's whole schtick.


The real problem you have is that your combination of interests forces you into this army style. You like seeing Beast-marines. The army appeals to you not just because of their rules and strength (right?), but because of how it plays and the feel of those hairy savages. In this case, I can only suggest in taking as sub-par stuff as you can. Lose the Storm Shields on the Thunderwulf Cavalry, lose the special items on the Wulfen, lose the formation. Downgrade yourself and try again like that.

Good luck!

They are a footslogging melee unit that works in 7th. I find that compared to the "usual suspects" ie TWC, Decurion Wraiths, Wraithknights/Scytheguard/Scatbikes, anything with a rerollable 2++, etc etc etc, I will take the Wulfen every. Single. Day.

Because at the end of the day it's a moderately tough unit with a save that's easy to grind through with high rate of fire weaponry. I've never had a problem dealing with them.

 KingCorpus wrote:
Hello Gents,

I have a serious question, and need opinions from outside my gaming group.

I run a melee themed Space Wolves force, it's the only 'marine'-type army I can stand, because tacticals, Devs, scouts, about 80% of space marine units are very boring to me.

Anyway, I adore the Thunder wolf Calvary, dreads, rune priests, Logan on sleigh, and wulfen units. My army lists tend to only consist of the said items.

Ex.

2,000 pts Champions of Fenris Detachment.

HQ
Wolf Lord - Runic Armor, Felclaw necklace, Hammer, Shield, Mount.
Iron Priest - Mount, Tempest Hammer

Elite
Ven. Dread Shield, and axe
Ven Dread Shield, and axe
Murderfang, Lucious Patter Drop pod

Fast Attack
6x Thunder Calv, all with shields

That's usually the basis and I switch the rest usually with

Bjorn, The murderpack formation (2 wulfen units) each wulfen unit having 2 TH/SS, 3 FC, 3 shoulder guns, Wyrdstorm Brotherhood Rune priests on bikes, one with the helm of durfast, and lastly Logan on the sleigh.


I have a very high win record with this army, even against decurion, skyhammer, and invisible knights. (im not bragging, I do get spanked by a Tzeentch daemon player, and a inquisitor with psychotroke grenades)

A lot of people have told me this army is 'broken' I'm starting to feel like it's as bad as tau and eldar cheese lists, should I be thinking that?

I personally don't care too much, because this army is essentially all melee (minus the 4d6 shots from the rune formation, I like thinking im a sith ), and I love it for that, but I also don't want to discourage other players by thinking im a guy who 'wins at all costs' because I've never been that way.

Army mainly consisting of TWC wolfen and iron priests? Yeah thats the startings of a unkillable deathstar and is very competitive, all of those with the exception of santa and the dreads are uber competitive, worse than tau for sure but still just in second place with SM for cheese.

Do you guys consider, a 6 man TWC with SS, and an Iron Priest attached a broken death star?

I got a lot of blood claws I've been building manly because I like their fluff, and how they have rage. I could switch out calvary for blood claws.

Also, the tzeentch army, only one thing flies in it. I also only make a wolf star ( by wolf star one who's buffed with rune priests, besides the iron priest) one that can get buffed when I play skyhammer, decurion, etc other strong armies but when I played weak book armies I bring Logan, Bjorn,


It is really sad somethings I've taken into account, Ex.

-Death Company vs 6 wolves with shields and iron priest got stomped
-Bloodthirster even ones with D axe kind of struggle too
-Iron priest placement on absorbing bolter shots is cheeky

So in my opinion, I agree here and there with you guys. I also appreciate the points you're making.

My main army is dark eldar, and I love the cc of the game so I always bring grotesques, and incubi, but I guess this wolf army might be a little too cheesy for average Joe's like tyranids, orks, and csm :(

 KingCorpus wrote:
Hello Gents,

I have a serious question, and need opinions from outside my gaming group.

I run a melee themed Space Wolves force, it's the only 'marine'-type army I can stand, because tacticals, Devs, scouts, about 80% of space marine units are very boring to me.

Anyway, I adore the Thunder wolf Calvary, dreads, rune priests, Logan on sleigh, and wulfen units. My army lists tend to only consist of the said items.

Ex.

2,000 pts Champions of Fenris Detachment.

HQ
Wolf Lord - Runic Armor, Felclaw necklace, Hammer, Shield, Mount.
Iron Priest - Mount, Tempest Hammer

Elite
Ven. Dread Shield, and axe
Ven Dread Shield, and axe
Murderfang, Lucious Patter Drop pod

Fast Attack
6x Thunder Calv, all with shields

That's usually the basis and I switch the rest usually with

Bjorn, The murderpack formation (2 wulfen units) each wulfen unit having 2 TH/SS, 3 FC, 3 shoulder guns, Wyrdstorm Brotherhood Rune priests on bikes, one with the helm of durfast, and lastly Logan on the sleigh.


I have a very high win record with this army, even against decurion, skyhammer, and invisible knights. (im not bragging, I do get spanked by a Tzeentch daemon player, and a inquisitor with psychotroke grenades)

A lot of people have told me this army is 'broken' I'm starting to feel like it's as bad as tau and eldar cheese lists, should I be thinking that?

I personally don't care too much, because this army is essentially all melee (minus the 4d6 shots from the rune formation, I like thinking im a sith ), and I love it for that, but I also don't want to discourage other players by thinking im a guy who 'wins at all costs' because I've never been that way.

No offense dude but your list isnt good haha

I mean, you dont have have access to invisiblity, fnp and you only have a few wounds... We are far away from a ravenwing + wolf characters which look out sir on ferishian wolves or RW with a 2-3 re rollable jink saves + FNP + invisibility...

Im also a bit surprised you did win versus a 3 knights star invisibile... Good job !

Keep playing your wolfen, your list is just fine, dont worry

 KingCorpus wrote:
Do you guys consider, a 6 man TWC with SS, and an Iron Priest attached a broken death star?

I got a lot of blood claws I've been building manly because I like their fluff, and how they have rage. I could switch out calvary for blood claws.

Also, the tzeentch army, only one thing flies in it. I also only make a wolf star ( by wolf star one who's buffed with rune priests, besides the iron priest) one that can get buffed when I play skyhammer, decurion, etc other strong armies but when I played weak book armies I bring Logan, Bjorn,


It is really sad somethings I've taken into account, Ex.

-Death Company vs 6 wolves with shields and iron priest got stomped
-Bloodthirster even ones with D axe kind of struggle too
-Iron priest placement on absorbing bolter shots is cheeky

So in my opinion, I agree here and there with you guys. I also appreciate the points you're making.

My main army is dark eldar, and I love the cc of the game so I always bring grotesques, and incubi, but I guess this wolf army might be a little too cheesy for average Joe's like tyranids, orks, and csm :(

I also main dark eldar and harleys so I know the feeling, but all you need are 2 mages and a bit of luck and you have the strongest unit in the game. 2++ rerollable that hits like a truck and has the speed to catch most things too.

Point for point, there is no melee unit in the game that can stand up to Wulfen once they reach combat. Against the very melee-centric Orks, Tyranids, and Chaos Marines, most or their units will be shredded at I5 (and even if a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant smacks you down before you can swing, who cares, you get to attack anyway.) Even better, when those (few) remaining Boyz or Berzerkers swing back and kill one, they double their attacks.

Whether Wulfen are overpowered or not is debatable, but playing against "auto-delete" units is not fun, whether they be melee or shooting. Plus, the proliferation of at initiative AP2 is slightly disturbing.

If you have a few moments, mathhammer a Wulfen Sergeant with frost claws versus, say, Kharn or an Ork Warboss. Then compare their price tags.

Take abaddon at 265 and compare him to a unit of wulfen of around the same points (less really).

A unit of 5 with a mix of sheilds, hammers, and claws, will kill him pretty consistently and possibly have 1-3 wulfen after combat.

Better maneuverability, better rules, etc etc.

Abaddon is supposed to be very scary in melee, but the wulfen are worse.

A character from one of the worst and most out of date books being bad doesn't make something OP.

SemperMortis wrote:
Much like most of the SM codex it isn't the statline of the model your paying 30pts for, it is the plethora of rules that accompany that stat line that makes this model so broken.

Special Rules: Acute sense, you get to reroll what table edge you come on from reserve. Not bad, not amazing but not bad.

ATSKNF: Yeah.....amazing

Bounding Lope: Run and assault as well as reroll failed charge rolls....in other words this is Waaaagh! but better........and can happen on 1st turn and doesn't need an expensive character to be alive to use. AMAZING

Counter-Attack: great rule, basically makes them a beast in CC regardless of who charges who.

Curse of the Wulfen: Ok....its called a bloody Curse, why is it a BUFF instead of a nerf? I won't go over both tables, nor will I go over each individually. Go take a peak and tell me how that is a curse?

Death Frenzy: Wow, if you kill any wulfen in CC they get to attack you again, regardless of Initiative step.......

FNP: 5+ FNP, very good.

and finally Rage. +2 attacks on the charge. Or counter charge as well. In other words each Wulfen gets 6 attacks EACH on the 1st turn of CC.

All of that on a model that is 30ppm. My Nobz by comparison are 22ppm (with eavy Armor) and have basically none of those amazing buffs, they also don't have S5, I5, LD8. So in other words your paying 8ppm for all of those amazing special rules that make Wulfen a beast mode unit. I would gladly pay another 8ppm for my nobz to have HALF of those special rules.

So in other words, Yes, Wulfen are broken and a bit OP.

Curse as in 'Curse of the Werewolf' all upsides until the mob with pitchforks and torches realise silver is the answer. Doesn't even take silver bullets to off the Wulfen.

Back to the OP
Wulfen can be as fluffy or cheesy as you choose to make them. Next time you play for fun don't spend any points on Runic Armour or Storm Shields, spend them on Wolf Guard and Wolf Scouts. Viola, you've just changed your army from stupidly resilient to laughably bad.

In an overall "meta" sense, Wulfen arent the most terrible thing out there, not by a longshot.

However, relative to equivalent units and what they're really supposed to represent, they're more than a wee bit absurd. When they'll handily curbstomp the genetically engineered super soldiers of the Chaos god of blood and battle and other such things, thats when people start to get rightfullt butthurt. I mean, Ulrik earned the mantle of "Slayer" for managing to defeat 3 of said Blood God devotees and that was considered a miraculous and heroic feat, but when Wulfen can do that on their onesies as a matter of course, it defeats the background element that is the sole component that keeps this game alive and really makes gameplay balance impossible to manage for melee units in a comparative sense.

That and I just generally hate the entire concept of Space Wolves as Werewolves in general and the Wolfy stuff (Wulfen, Logan Claus on his sleigh, TWC's, etc) is all just exceedingly stupid to me, but that's perhaps another thread altogether

The comparisons to orks, tyranids, and csm are not -fully- credible mainly because they are a very old book.

Once they're updated I feel the light will change.

Most things currently when compared to the older editions shouldnt expect much in all honesty, and IMO thats GWs fault.

Broken in shooty meta or 2+ refill invuls? No
Broken when in cc with anything without 4+ invul? Yes

People just don't want to adapt, look at me people don't want to play my tau a much and I've been taking 1 riptide only as my mc or higher, and fire warriors maxed with a kroot squad with max hounds. And I get complaints about grav not wiping my squads out in 1 turn. I even let my oppent choose the army variation they play.

Orks are a current edition book, CSM's and Tyranids are older, but their issues arent really age related. The idea that a newer book will bring them up to the current power curve isnt one that historically has actually panned out, particularly as GW changes design philosophy every 18-24 months seemingly, and CSM's tend to be a leading test case for "tone down" phases

I find they drop in power a lot without shields. S8 with ap4 or better isn't massively rare. It's the 3++ that causes the issue.

Once you have just enough shields to tank those wounds (maybe a little less than half), they're absolutely absurd.

 KingCorpus wrote:
The comparisons to orks,... ... not -fully- credible mainly because they are a very old book.
Once they're updated I feel the light will change.

Cough we all expected this to happen when the ork book dropped but orks actually lost all their stuff in the 7th edition codex. The old one ( 4th edition book that is ) might actually have a better chance vs them.

They are where elite melee specialists need to be to merit table time in the "melt your face off" ranged meta of the current edition. The game would be in a better place if more elite melee units were as good.

 Eldarain wrote:
They are where elite melee specialists need to be to merit table time in the "melt your face off" ranged meta of the current edition. The game would be in a better place if more elite melee units were as good.

Agreed.

Also, if Wulfen are too strong, then Eldar and Tau shooting is "too insane".