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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




So I placed an order for some AOS bits, paints and brushes etc, from a store online last tuesday evening. On Wednesday morning I received the PayPal receipt, Thursday I received an email saying they were processing the order, and then Friday afternoon received a further email stating they didn't have the items in stock and would take anywhere up to a week to order them in as they're 'a small store and don't keep lots of stock in'.
Is it fair for me to feel a little put out? Especially given I paid extra for fast delivery. I sent them an email back that Friday afternoon which they still haven't replied to, I'm not sure if I'm expecting too much, but to me the base premise of selling something is you actually have the items you're selling (There was no out of stock indicator on the website).
   
Made in gb
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




England

Where did you get them from? GW or eBay? Independant retailer?

If you can't believe in yourself, believe in me! Believe in the Dakka who believes in you!  
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Nottinghamshire

You're not unreasonable to expect honest stock levels.

You're a bit unreasonable to expect rapid email response on a bank holiday weekend from a small business.


[ Mordian 183rd ] - an ongoing Imperial Guard story with crayon drawings!
[ "I can't believe it's not Dakka!" ] - a buttery painting and crafting blog
 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Independent retailer.

I appreciate its bank holiday weekend, but for a small retailer it doesn't seem wholly difficult to respond to an email between Friday afternoon and Tuesday afternoon
   
Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

matjb2512 wrote:
Independent retailer.

I appreciate its bank holiday weekend, but for a small retailer it doesn't seem wholly difficult to respond to an email between Friday afternoon and Tuesday afternoon



Most places don't email on weekends regardless if they work 7 days a week or not.

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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Nottinghamshire

Assuming you are the only email they are replying to.
All businesses experience large backlogs of work and emails before and after bank holidays, from stores to GP surgeries.


[ Mordian 183rd ] - an ongoing Imperial Guard story with crayon drawings!
[ "I can't believe it's not Dakka!" ] - a buttery painting and crafting blog
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Well they did tell you quickly the was out of stock rather than just keeping quite about it so i'd say that was a point in their favour

although it's clearly annoying

(you mention no out of stock indicator on the website, but did they say they had live stock levels? small stores especially can suffer from this if their online stock is effectively just pulled off the shelf rather than held separately)

it's also going to depend on those T&C you sign up to when you create an account/make an order which might well specify that not everything is held in stock and such items would need to be ordered

I would, however, expect a refund of any extra fast delivery charges if they can't hit whatever target they come with

as for no response over a bank holiday weekend (assuming the store is where your flag is) it's possible they have not been around to read it, hopefully you'll get a response today


 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




I'd feel put out if I paid for faster delivery as well, especially if it's 3 days before they even tell me they're out of stock and not able to fulfill my order. That's the day I'd be expecting my delivery!
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Did get an email back saying they'll have the one (of probably 9) items they didn't have in stock by Thursday so should have it out to me by Saturday, bit of a bummer really but at least they got back to me.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I would also expect a refund on the express delivery charges.

If they had 8 out of 9 items in stock, they could have offered to ship what they had in stock right away, and then ship the last item whenever they could (free of charge obviously).
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




That's what I thought, the delivery cost was only an extra couple of pounds and I'm back to work tomorrow till next week anyway (ambulance service shifts are all over the place) so I've missed my opportunity to do some hobby stuff anyway, seems like I'd just be making a big deal for the sake of it now.
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




matjb2512 wrote:
That's what I thought, the delivery cost was only an extra couple of pounds and I'm back to work tomorrow till next week anyway (ambulance service shifts are all over the place) so I've missed my opportunity to do some hobby stuff anyway, seems like I'd just be making a big deal for the sake of it now.


That's not really the point, though. You paid extra to have it in hand quickly, regardless of what actually happened in your life that meant you wouldn't do anything with the items. Just my opinion. But it's totally up to you, if you're okay paying extra for a week "express shipping" just be wary doing business with them next time

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/31 20:19:40


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

At a minimum, they need to refund ALL of your expedited delivery charges. And if they can't deliver in a timely manner, I'd cancel the order, and require them to refund.

Start your PayPal dispute now.

   
Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker




Texas

In regards to timely responses to query's, my take is if their physical store was open, what is the difference between responding to customers who come into the store or call over the phone vs. e-mail. To me, there isn't one. If they were open, then they should have and could have responded to e-mail as easily as they could have to a query in person or by phone unless they have something prominently posted that states that they respond to e-mails within x number of days, excluding holidays.

As for the expedited delivery, I agree that if it is not immediately available for dispatch it is a bit dishonest to charge for expedited delivery since you are asking for it because you want it presumably next day or in two days, etc, not next week sometime after stock comes in. You pay a premium for it and should get the premium level of service. That said, if the retailer doesn't give stock on hand info, then I think it is reasonable that the buyer beware and shouldn't assume that expedited delivery will mean immediate dispatch.

Ultimately, the retailer wants your business, and your expectations are just that...yours whether some or many consider them unreasonable or not. If the retailer wants to keep your business they will adjust their business practices in order to meet your expectations. If their not willing, is it not unreasonable then for you to stop doing business with them?

I think it would be perfectly fair to call the retailer and ask them if they think it fair that you be charged for expedited delivery given the circumstances. Their response should be informative and provide you with the feedback needed to make an informed decision the next time you have a choice to do business with them. Don't hesitate to mention that how they respond will influence whether or not you will choose to consider using them in the future.

As an analogy, I use Amazon quite frequently to take advantage of their prime shipping guarantee. However I have learned that I need to check stock and "who" is fulfilling it and in some cases break up orders to avoid delays due to out of stock or items not being fulfilled by Amazon. In one case I got a credit because Amazon did list something as in stock, with one of their standard blurts of get it by x date if ordered within so many hours, but failed to ship it (and the rest of the order) for 3 days because of a stock error on their part (their explanation for the delay) and the credit was their way of making up for their failure to meet my expectations and to encourage me to continue to shop with them.


"Preach the gospel always, If necessary use words." ~ St. Francis of Assisi 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





I'm assuming you used them because they were cheaper than others and also a much smaller business. You therefore have to accept that they aren't going to have everything in stock because it isn't practical.

As for delivery, it's not about getting it as fast as possible, it's about getting it when you want. You could ask to change the date of delivery so it's convenient for you, but asking to discount this cost is unreasonable for such a small company because it will simply destroy any profit. They will almost certainly still use your chosen delivery method, but there is a difference between guaranteeing delivery next day versus using a type of delivery that should get the product to you next day once posted.

So yes, I think you are being a bit unreasonable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/31 22:41:26


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Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well they did tell you quickly the was out of stock rather than just keeping quite about it so i'd say that was a point in their favour

YYMV, obviously, but I personally wouldn't call taking 3 days to notify of an out of stock 'telling him quickly'...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Whirlwind wrote:
I'm assuming you used them because they were cheaper than others and also a much smaller business. You therefore have to accept that they aren't going to have everything in stock because it isn't practical.

It's fine for stores to not have everything in stock provided they are up front about it.

Selling stock through a webstore with no indicator that they don't actually have the item you're buying is not acceptable, small business or no.




Too many businesses these days seem to just list everything as 'in stock' and expect to be able to order from the supplier when a customer actually wants one. It's dishonest, and it's annoying for customers who need the item quickly and would have gone to someone who actually did have the item in stock had they known what was going on.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/01 01:55:05


 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




I think the nail has been hit on the head, I get the reason why they don't have it in stock, but I wasn't made aware of it at the time and if I had known I'd have ordered elsewhere.
I'm actually quite confident that I'm not being unreasonable, it doesn't seem unfair expect stock levels honest. They did respond to my initial email essentially saying they can't afford a system that counts their store, website and eBay stock levels, which I suppose is fair enough, but surely the cheap workaround is attaching a note to each product on the website making customers aware that they might not have the product in stock and to call to double check.
It seems they might just be ignoring my emails now though, TripleHelix is the retailer for the record.
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 Whirlwind wrote:
I'm assuming you used them because they were cheaper than others and also a much smaller business. You therefore have to accept that they aren't going to have everything in stock because it isn't practical.

As for delivery, it's not about getting it as fast as possible, it's about getting it when you want. You could ask to change the date of delivery so it's convenient for you, but asking to discount this cost is unreasonable for such a small company because it will simply destroy any profit. They will almost certainly still use your chosen delivery method, but there is a difference between guaranteeing delivery next day versus using a type of delivery that should get the product to you next day once posted.

So yes, I think you are being a bit unreasonable.


It's about paying more to get it in a shorter amount of time, in this instance. How is it unreasonable to expect a delivery in 3 days if you were to pay more to get express shipping instead of standard shipping? (for example)

If I pay for next day delivery, but they don't ship it for a week, and I get it the day after they shipped it, that's a problem, small business or not. They should not be sitting on my order for so long, I paid to have it the day after I paid for it. I can understand instances where I ordered too late to be shipped out that day, and so will get it in 2 days when I pay for "next day delivery," but quite a few retailers will state somewhere something like "Orders made after 2pm ship the next day." A business that offers express shipping should be prepared to ship expressly. Period. To me, it's more unreasonable for a business to take extra money to get things to you more quickly than normal, and then do the opposite.

Also, there's a difference between paying for faster shipping, then asking to alter ship dates so you get it at a specific time, and the retailer itself saying "We see you paid for fast shipping, but it won't happen for a while." One is asking for a service to be performed at a time of your convenience, the other is a service being denied even while still being paid for.

Plus, if discounting shipping cost will "destroy profit," they need a new business. Seriously. Shipping costs are just supposed to be shipping costs. It's not supposed to be how you make your money. Add to that the fact that losing a little profit is sometimes how you gain and retain customers, particularly when you cause them an inconvenience through your own ineptitude. So yes, OP should get the shipping he paid for, with a refund of the shipping cost, because it didn't actually happen. They should be going "The mistake is on us, and we will ship this order as quickly as we can, but since what you paid for isn't actually happening, we will not make you pay for it." It's called customer service.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

A functional MO shop should have NBD TAT. That is, Next Business Day Turnarournd Time. If I order today, they should ship by end of day tomorrow.

A small shop? 2BD TAT.

And they should hit that number 99% of the time.

If there is an issue with picking and packing, they should let you know ASAP.

Taking 3 days to notify that they'll be a week late? Unacceptable.

And for the record, I do a small internet sales thing on the side. I meet my numbers.

   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Update - After I sent them another email pretty much outlining (quite politely I thought) all the points raised here I (two days later) received an email that in a few sentences that all in all said "Thanks for the feedback, please shop with us again".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/01 16:12:40


 
   
Made in us
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matjb2512 wrote:
"Thanks for the feedback, please shop with us again".


I personally would not, if that were the response.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

Shipping, whether express or normal, is always done from the day they have inventory to ship. That is standard business practices. Just because you ordered express shipping doesn't mean you will get it the next day or 2. It means that you will get it the next day or 2 after they get the product in stock. Otherwise, say, they get it in 1 week and they ship it normally, which then took another week. So the out-of-stock item might take 14-days for you to receive if they shipped normally instead of 8-9 days if they shipped it expressly.

You could make a request to eat the extra shipping charges due to the delay or you will cancel your order and that is perfectly within your right to do so, but don't expect the company to do anything about it unless you force them to.

As for the email reply, it is quite conceivable that a smaller company might be taking the weekend off and that includes replying to company email. You're just going to have to wait to see whether they reply during "normal" business hours.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/09/02 00:47:29



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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

matjb2512 wrote:
Update - After I sent them another email pretty much outlining (quite politely I thought) all the points raised here I (two days later) received an email that in a few sentences that all in all said "Thanks for the feedback, please shop with us again".


AYFKM?

If it were me, I'd cancel the order.

   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch




 jy2 wrote:
Shipping, whether express or normal, is always done from the day they have inventory to ship. That is standard business practices. Just because you ordered express shipping doesn't mean you will get it the next day or 2. It means that you will get it the next day or 2 after they get the product in stock. Otherwise, say, they get it in 1 week and they ship it normally, which then took another week. So the out-of-stock item might take 14-days for you to receive if they shipped normally instead of 8-9 days if they shipped it expressly.


So it's not a valid, reasonable expectation that if something is advertised for sale, that it's available for purchase immediately? EDIT: I'm honestly curious on that point.

"Not able to afford a program that monitors our stock levels" just means you gotta do it, bub.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/01 16:36:53


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




On a surly Warboar, leading the Waaagh!

Chalk this up to a lesson learned.
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 BigWaaagh wrote:
Chalk this up to a lesson learned.


Absolutely, I'm not hugely peeved by this whole debacle, at least someone else may now not have to suffer the same mild annoyance.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





San Jose, CA

BossJakadakk wrote:
 jy2 wrote:
Shipping, whether express or normal, is always done from the day they have inventory to ship. That is standard business practices. Just because you ordered express shipping doesn't mean you will get it the next day or 2. It means that you will get it the next day or 2 after they get the product in stock. Otherwise, say, they get it in 1 week and they ship it normally, which then took another week. So the out-of-stock item might take 14-days for you to receive if they shipped normally instead of 8-9 days if they shipped it expressly.


So it's not a valid, reasonable expectation that if something is advertised for sale, that it's available for purchase immediately? EDIT: I'm honestly curious on that point.

"Not able to afford a program that monitors our stock levels" just means you gotta do it, bub.

Just because a vendor lists an item as a product they have for sale doesn't necessarily mean that it is in stock. It's reasonable to expect that a product is in stock, but it is also the responsibility of the vendor to notify the customer if something is out of stock. The vendor in this case did. So now it's up to the consumer whether he wants to wait for the product or not. Simple as that. If you don't want to wait, then cancel and order from someone else. If you don't mind, then wait and/or perhaps negotiate for a better deal (i.e. reduced shipping costs, etc.).






Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnHwangDD wrote:
matjb2512 wrote:
Update - After I sent them another email pretty much outlining (quite politely I thought) all the points raised here I (two days later) received an email that in a few sentences that all in all said "Thanks for the feedback, please shop with us again".


AYFKM?

If it were me, I'd cancel the order.

Me too, assuming that they weren't the only company to carry that particular model/bits.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/01 18:25:37



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Jy2's 6th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links.....Jy2's 7th Edition Battle Report Thread - Links
 
   
Made in gb
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cornwall

Has this issue with Triplehelix before they have a history of having stuff on line but not in stock they take the order and then do one order a week to gw and if your timing is bad then tough. Darksphere or goblin games have been good to use.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 jy2 wrote:
Just because a vendor lists an item as a product they have for sale doesn't necessarily mean that it is in stock.


Uh, no, unless they specifically point out that the item is not in stock and needs to be ordered from the supplier, offering an item for sale most certainly should mean that they actually have the item to sell. Which should always mean that they actually have the item in hand. Otherwise, they're selling you something that they don't actually own, and are therefore in no position to guarantee the sale.



Edit: And this:
They did respond to my initial email essentially saying they can't afford a system that counts their store, website and eBay stock levels, which I suppose is fair enough

...is laughable, frankly.

Not being able to afford a POS system that correctly tracks your stock is not an excuse for not correctly tracking your stock.






This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/02 03:25:23


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

 jy2 wrote:
Just because a vendor lists an item as a product they have for sale doesn't necessarily mean that it is in stock.


Actually, it is. That's pretty much what "For Sale" and "In Stock" means. As opposed to "Preorder" or "Backordered".

   
 
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