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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

I have two friends. We all got into each others' gaming hobbies at about the same time. I got them into Warhammer, one friend got us into Magic the Gathering, and the other friend got us into HeroClix. We were some hard-core gamers about 12 years ago and would get several games in per week. Life happens, we got older, got married, got real jobs, and had kids. Now we are lucky to get together every 7 or 8 months. We've all kept our collections, but honestly 40k has been my passion.

Now my friends are rather reluctant to play 40k. They think I'm "gaming" them. Basically they have two armies each, with about 2300 points per army. I have MANY armies with every option under the sun. They have basically accused me of "Paying to Win" by being totally unpredictable in what I will field. Let's be clear, I'm not a bandwagon player. I don't use the new "power army", nor do I use WAAC net lists. My go-to Necron army uses 4-20 man warrior units and no heavy support. I do change which army I play though. I usually use whatever I am currently painting, just because I am excited by it at the moment (yes, this included an almost all Kroot Tau army). I let them know what faction I am playing a week in advance.
I pointed out that I'm still using 1st edition Heroclix when they have armies of ultra rare Unique figures. I also use Magic cards bought at WalMart 12 years ago and have no idea what newer decks do. They say "that's different though".

Am I being TFG, or are they cry-babies?
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Melbourne

No, I don't think you're being TFG. Personally I think your Nercon army will be fun to play against.
But then I don't think your friends are being cry babies either. 4, 20 man warrior will be pretty tough to deal will, if they don't have the right resources.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Your friends are being TFG. They're complaining that they don't get to tailor against your lists when list tailoring is already TFG behavior. Combined with their "I don't care" attitude towards buying their way to victory in other games I think it's pretty clear that your so-called friends are just angry about not getting to win easily enough.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





 Peregrine wrote:
Your friends are being TFG. They're complaining that they don't get to tailor against your lists when list tailoring is already TFG behavior. Combined with their "I don't care" attitude towards buying their way to victory in other games I think it's pretty clear that your so-called friends are just angry about not getting to win easily enough.


I basically share Peregrine's sentiments.

If I'm understanding you (i.e., the OP) correctly, then you are making the following claims:

1. You have multiple armies.
2. The armies that you have do not fall under the category of "OP net list bull gak."
3. Those armies are either painted or are in the process of being painted.
4. You use those different armies for different gaming sessions. (So one week you'll play necron warriors, another week kroot, etc.)

Personally, I would be delighted to have such a player in my own 40k circle.

Aside from sheer envy, the only reason I can see them complaining is because you use so many armies that they can't keep track of the rules. But you tell them in advance what you are using.

Do they not know how to internet?

Addendum:

What do their armies look like?

Even if they run nothing but tactical marines with bolters, I can't really see something like an all kroot army being too overwhelming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, here's a quick test:

Do you own a wraithknight and scatter bikes?

Do you own a riptide? A storm surge? A titan? An imperial knight? A grav heavy space marine army? More than 2 space marine librarians or chaos sorcerers?

Do you have a bunch of fliers that you use regularly?

Hive tyrants?

If you don't say "yes" to at least one of these questions, I'm finding myself seriously doubting the "pay to win" claim.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/09/02 07:05:03


 
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




Southampton, UK

Agreed, it's their problem - but part of me does get where they're coming from. I've been in a similar position - until recently I only ever played against one friend, and we did have something of an arms race going as we naturally tailored towards each others armies. It's lessened off a bit now as we've introduced another player, started collecting second armies and so on.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Your approach to the game sounds a lot like mine. I have enough stuff to field every 40k army bar Dark Eldar at this stage so I can essentially bring whatever I want in almost any configuration (except for my smaller armies, like Orks, Harlis and Tau).

I tend to bring a different list every time, either because I'm inspired by a cool model, or just go "I wonder if I can make 3 Hellhounds work?" and stuff like that. Avoid netdecking, avoid taking the power list - just bring whatever seems cool (within reason, I'm not about to handicap myself on purpose).

They're the one's being unreasonable. Oh and 'pay to win', or 'Wallethammer 40,000' only works in instances where there are no points limits and you can bring whatever you can buy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/02 07:54:03


Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in ie
Calculating Commissar




Frostgrave

I think for the casual approach they seem to be taking, trying to keep up with multiple armies (in terms of rules, cost and hobby time) is probably impossible. They probably feel like they don't stand a chance in 40K as you can field anything and they are stuck with their own armies. What's your win ratio like? Do you keep destroying them?

Heroclix is fairly balanced, and the rules are trivial.
I get the impression that MTG isn't that balanced, but the rules are pretty clear.
40K isn't balanced at all, and the rules are a mess.

You've said you don't bother keeping up with Heroclix or MTG, so why should they have to keep up with 40K?
   
Made in gb
Three Color Minimum





If you have to ask us instead of them I have bad news.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

Outside of Apoc. Games I have never used a titan, flier, or Wraithknight. I don't even have any Grav weapons in any army, nor do I own a single librarian. I have an Eldar army, but it is set up for 4th edition, which is the last time I played it.


Back when I used to play 40k once or twice a week I actually stayed VERY stable. Not only did I play Necron exclusively for almost 2 years strait I actually kept the same take-all-comers list. The only change I made was when I switched from the Chapter Approved rules to the 4th Edition codex (then I had to swarm base my scarabs). After that I played a mono-God Tzeeench marine list for a year.

I'm really not changing armies more often now. I'm just playing fewer games. We only get together to game once or twice per year, and we rotate systems: 40k, heroclix, Magic. That basically means in a year and a half I may have moved on to a new modeling project.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

I think you are OK.

I can see their point though. If they are not as into 40k as you are, and can only field one or two lists, they have no options to respond. So if you bring something that’s going to curb stomp them, their only option is to take it or shell out big bucks for the latest hotness.

Now it doesn’t sound like that is your plan. But IMHO the onus is on you, as the more experienced player with a larger collection, to make sure you guys have a balanced game. So you need to list tailor. Not to win, but for fun.

And last I checked the power creep in M:tG was a serious thing; can’t speak for heroclix. But PTW is a serious thing there. Someone with 4 of the latest rares, and chase cards etc is going to have an advantage over the guy who shows up with a starter and a couple of boosters of the old set.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





The Golden Throne

Well in order to keep playing with your buddies sounds like you are going to have to adapt or find another group to get the full 40k experience. Otherwise I'd tone it down a few clicks or you'll be playing 40k with yourself.

I know exactly what you mean about armies. However, my group enjoys it. They can even ask me to play x, cause they want to test y. Its just fun, no one is getting a blue ribbon.

Suggest "playtesting" , have them proxy some units to spice up their lists. Your clearly more into 40k so have them "help me, help you".

This isnt a case of Moneyhammer. Its a case of your into 40K more than your buddies. You may want to find a club for more diversity. Or my favorite, switch armies at game time. Lol. Thats always fun.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/02 12:36:09


 
   
Made in gr
Furious Fire Dragon





Athens Greece

I kinda feel your problem. I have a limited Grey Knight force and I don't have huge options on what to field. I enjoyed a lot playing with them but every guy I was playing against in my local shop was tailoring his list against me...It felt impossible to win and they where making comments on how weak GK are.

Then I switched to my Eldar, with which I can field whatever I want since. First guy refused to play when he found out that I didn't brought GK and every one else got leveled. I don't enjoy playing a powerhouse list but those guys deserved it. Of course they tailor their list against Eldar but still lose and they don't admit that they tailored their lists against my GK.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/02 12:55:03


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PM me if you are interested in Commission work.
 
   
Made in gb
Malicious Mandrake




Maybe not "that guy", but (perhaps) not everyone is seeing things from the other guys' perspectives.

"That's different" - well - it isn't. But because they're not into 40K like you are, they're also playing a guy who (I assume) games or gamed 40K regularly, has the rules down pat, and knows his armies' strengths and weaknesses, while they only play once or twice a year.

If that IS the case, you're going to be at an advantage anyway, even with a "weaker" army. In truth, I wouldn't call 80 Necron warriors weak.

Because they have smaller, static (in purchase terms) armies, you pretty much know what you'll be facing, and have quite possibly played similar armies while they've been off carding or clixing. You may not consciously list tailor, but does your subconscious know that?

Maybe mix it up and play some kill team, 40K in 40 minutes, and/or three short small games, where everyone takes a turn playing with everyone else's army?

Sounds like six of one, half a dozen of the other. so talk to them, and see how you get the FUN back into the game - or - play a dungeon crawler that's new to all of you equally?

   
Made in gb
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker





Why not suggest you play some games where they use your armies? That gives them the opportunity to try some new things and be less predictable.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

"Being unpredictable." complained as an issue.
I agree that list tailoring is not a right so it is a rather weak complaint.
Heck, they should be happy you offer some variety (unless they are not all that familiar with all your army's rules so may have wanted to play them a couple more times).

I remember my friend who plays Dark Eldar thought I was being TFG for bringing a fair bit of SM armor (poison does not work so good) until I pointed out because I got it all painted and wanted what looked best on the table (it was the only stuff I had past being primed), never mind that with all those dark lances, this was a problem how?... he felt better then.

Usually when people accuse you of something, it can point to what they are doing to you.
That is having a VERY negative view of your friends which may not be the fact at all.

I know if 40k is not their game it takes a ton of trust in a person presenting the codex rules correctly so the unknown of a new army may be throwing them off.

I usually design a scenario with my friend's armies in mind (I too have more than anyone else in my group), balance it as best I can figure with the understanding they can switch armies with me if they want (but no choosing a "lame" army with the intent to switch! Did that to me once... it was comical). Trying to establish trust that I did not build advantage for me is hard to do. I sometimes throw in a bunch of objectives and special rules into a blind draw so I have no idea which one either of us will get also helps.

I personally like a challenge because it makes me better and if by some miracle I pull it off: it gives bragging rights for years, if you lose it was to be expected so win-win.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Omadon's Realm

WobblyGoblin wrote:
Why not suggest you play some games where they use your armies? That gives them the opportunity to try some new things and be less predictable.


That's a bingo.

Let them know this, let them come up with surprise lists as well.



 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Nottinghamshire

If these guys are your friends, and you care about their feelings, work this out with them.
We cannot manage your relationships for you, we cannot accurately second guess what they feel. You need to communicate with the people in your life.

If you don't care that you upset them and just want to tell us about people whining, carry on.


[ Mordian 183rd ] - an ongoing Imperial Guard story with crayon drawings!
[ "I can't believe it's not Dakka!" ] - a buttery painting and crafting blog
 
   
Made in bg
Storm Trooper with Maglight






Sounds like you are wayyy more into the hobby/game of 40K than them. Either they are jelly of your armies, or you they are just too casual and you punish them too hard on the battlefield.

Once I was whining about the Necrons of a friend I am playing with and he offered me to switch the armies and gets me beaten with my own army.

There is nothing more I can think of.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/02 21:55:50


 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

I think the matter is not so much them being TFG's as it sounds like they just don't like playing 40k much anymore. I could be way off base but it seems like 40k is a game that they haven't got much interest in. They come and play the game with you and even if you play a non-optiomal list, your interest in -and knowledge about- the game means that they will likely lose.

WobblyGoblin wrote:
Why not suggest you play some games where they use your armies? That gives them the opportunity to try some new things and be less predictable.


This is a great idea. If you have lists, give them your full lists of your armies and let them pick what they want. If they want to grab a net-list and play hard, so-be-it. What you need to do here is give them some incentive to play a game they seem to have lost interest in.

Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
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Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

More often than not I end up supplying armies to people who play at my house. Given your collection seems to mirror my own, surely you have enough that they could borrow from you and build whatever list they feel like, right?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Biloxi, MS USA

Herzlos wrote:
Heroclix is fairly balanced,


Eh, not really, especially in the OP's case. A pre-revival 100 point figure is no where near as good as a modern 100 point figure, especially since there's a huge bank of powers that they don't even have a chance of accessing and the fact that many of them are costed for the older versions of certain powers. For example, Hypersonic speed got a massive overhaul to not be anywhere near as game winning as the old version could be and many of the Flash/Quicksilver/Superman/etc. models are priced with the old one in mind. Another would be Blades/Claws/Fangs pre-Impervious introduction.

A pre-revival team against a modern team, especially using the Chase stuff, is essentially hamstringing yourself whilst punching yourself repeatedly in the groin.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/03 01:54:54


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
More often than not I end up supplying armies to people who play at my house. Given your collection seems to mirror my own, surely you have enough that they could borrow from you and build whatever list they feel like, right?


I've offered that before. They just prefer their own armies mostly. One might take a tank or a unit of something once in a while.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 cuda1179 wrote:
I have two friends. We all got into each others' gaming hobbies at about the same time. I got them into Warhammer, one friend got us into Magic the Gathering, and the other friend got us into HeroClix. We were some hard-core gamers about 12 years ago and would get several games in per week. Life happens, we got older, got married, got real jobs, and had kids. Now we are lucky to get together every 7 or 8 months. We've all kept our collections, but honestly 40k has been my passion.

Now my friends are rather reluctant to play 40k. They think I'm "gaming" them. Basically they have two armies each, with about 2300 points per army. I have MANY armies with every option under the sun. They have basically accused me of "Paying to Win" by being totally unpredictable in what I will field. Let's be clear, I'm not a bandwagon player. I don't use the new "power army", nor do I use WAAC net lists. My go-to Necron army uses 4-20 man warrior units and no heavy support. I do change which army I play though. I usually use whatever I am currently painting, just because I am excited by it at the moment (yes, this included an almost all Kroot Tau army). I let them know what faction I am playing a week in advance.
I pointed out that I'm still using 1st edition Heroclix when they have armies of ultra rare Unique figures. I also use Magic cards bought at WalMart 12 years ago and have no idea what newer decks do. They say "that's different though".

Am I being TFG, or are they cry-babies?


Do you play to win, or do you play for fun? The call can go either way, but you and your friends might just want to have a heart to heart on why your playing the games. Drag queen in space said little, but that little said it all. Sorry, but I agree.



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

Against one of the friends I have about a 40% win rate, against the other about 80%.
   
Made in fr
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





France

Be careful about their behavor for they could basically drop the game if they're looking for some winning. I know someone complaining about IG being OP. After a couple of losses against me, he refused to play me out any longer arguing he couldn't do anything and that i only played for the win. Then we jumped on my impulsion onto bolt action where my germans don't stand a chance against his soviets. I lost like 9 games on 10 ( we meet often), as a consequence each time we meet he refuses my suggesting of a 40k game to have a bit a variaty so that we always play bolt action for he knows he'll win and i always accept since i mostly have fun with this game... i've no problem with losing and according to the situation you don't seem to be your case either but be careful not to head into the same situation, because it really looks this way

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/03 08:34:07


40k: Necrons/Imperial Guard/ Space marines
Bolt Action: Germany/ USA
Project Z.

"The Dakka Dive Bar is the only place you'll hear what's really going on in the underhive. Sure you might not find a good amasec but they grill a mean groxburger. Just watch for ratlings being thrown through windows and you'll be alright." Ciaphas Cain, probably.  
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

How about you offer them extras to borrow for the game.

You said you had everything. Basicaly available. Let them be able to deploy whatever they wanted and not just what they had. They night feel fairer?

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I've offered that before. They just prefer their own armies mostly. One might take a tank or a unit of something once in a while.


Well then you've tried. What else can you do.

"You have too much stuff for us to beat!"
"You can use anything of mine."
"We want to use our own armies!"
"Then don't complain about not being able to beat me!!!"

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Brigadier General






Chicago

 cuda1179 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
More often than not I end up supplying armies to people who play at my house. Given your collection seems to mirror my own, surely you have enough that they could borrow from you and build whatever list they feel like, right?


I've offered that before. They just prefer their own armies mostly. One might take a tank or a unit of something once in a while.


If that's the case then I think it's even more likely that they just aren't into 40k anymore. It's possible that they only play it because you do and even that might not be enough to make it enjoyable anymore.

Maybe it's time to find a new minis game? One that all of you would be interested in collecting and playing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/03 16:31:22


Chicago Skirmish Wargames club. Join us for some friendly, casual gaming in the Windy City.
http://chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/


My Project Log, mostly revolving around custom "Toybashed" terrain.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651712.page

Visit the Chicago Valley Railroad!
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
Be careful about their behavor for they could basically drop the game if they're looking for some winning. I know someone complaining about IG being OP. After a couple of losses against me, he refused to play me out any longer arguing he couldn't do anything and that i only played for the win. Then we jumped on my impulsion onto bolt action where my germans don't stand a chance against his soviets. I lost like 9 games on 10 ( we meet often), as a consequence each time we meet he refuses my suggesting of a 40k game to have a bit a variaty so that we always play bolt action for he knows he'll win and i always accept since i mostly have fun with this game... i've no problem with losing and according to the situation you don't seem to be your case either but be careful not to head into the same situation, because it really looks this way



In your situation I don't know if I could resist being petty and use his own words against him. I have friends I will not play games with anymore because it simply isn't worth it.

No game is better than a bad game.
   
Made in au
Norn Queen






Could you not just let them know in advance what army you'll be playing? There's enough variety that they can sort of list tailor against the army but not what you specifically bring.
   
 
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